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Thread: Crystal Rocks event - Illegal preemption?

  1. #1
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    http://www.crystalcity.org/eventdetail.asp?IdEvent=296

    It's a concert on public property, open to the public, held in Virginia. Is there something I'm missing?

    Prohibited Items:
    OutsideBeverages Prohibited
    Video Recording Prohibited
    Audio Recording Prohibited
    No Weapons or Weapon-Like Devices
    No Banners/Signs
    No Controlled Substances
    No Offensive Behavior
    No Containers (ice chests, food baskets, etc)

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    Regular Member vbnative73's Avatar
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    Seems like a clear cut case to me. I could barely see the case for not allowing CC due to the alcohol, even though it's not in a bar or restaurant, but barring OC seems like a clear violation of the law to me.

    There's my .02. Anyone else wanna chime in?

  3. #3
    Founder's Club Member Skeptic's Avatar
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    I get the impression that the arena is privately owned by a non governmental not for profit group, at least from their website.

    So the outdoor area could be privately owned.

  4. #4
    Regular Member vbnative73's Avatar
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    Look at maps.live.com or google earth. From a look at the area and the description, it sounds like they're gonna close the street to traffic and have the concert right there. If so, that's as public as public property can get.

    There's a grassy park-looking area there, but there's too many trees for a concert.

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    I'm quite sure that Vornado (formerly Charles E. Smith) owns the whole works, including the streets. While the streets allow egress and have names, I expect that Vornado owns the streets, also. This is actually pretty common, with this type of development.

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    Founder's Club Member - Moderator ed's Avatar
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    I just wrote in under the CONTACT US page:

    I saw your website today.

    Under prohibited items you list weapons. If you are on any public property or use any public funds for your event (public services, etc) it would be a violation of the law for you to not allow law abiding citizens their right to bear arms. I suggest you check with your attorney and then remove the weapon ban or change the wording to allow firearms to be carried legally by citizens. Thanks.

    - - -

    Prohibited Items:
    Outside Beverages Prohibited
    Video Recording Prohibited
    Audio Recording Prohibited
    No Weapons or Weapon-Like Devices
    No Banners/Signs
    No Controlled Substances
    No Offensive Behavior
    No Containers (ice chests, food baskets, etc)

    Carry On.

    Ed

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  7. #7
    Regular Member IanB's Avatar
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    Website no workie for me.

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Skeptic wrote:
    I get the impression that the arena is privately owned by a non governmental not for profit group, at least from their website.

    So the outdoor area could be privately owned.
    Look at http://www.crystalcity.org/default.a...2&SubId=36. Crystal City is a "Business Improvement District" - a partnering of private businesses and Arlington County.

    IANAL etc., but there is nothing to suggest that the streets are "owned" by "a non-governmental not for profit group." BIDs are most definately For Profit.

    If you really want to verify the status of the streets, contact the Arlington County Planning Office and ask if the county abandoned them as public streets, and if so the date and county resolution information that made it happen. For those not familiar with this, a locality can abandon ownership of a street and allow it to become the property of one or several of the landowners abutting the street. It then become a "private way".

    I seriously doubt Arlington County abandoned the streets surrounding Crystal City, if only because the parking fines are too profitable to give up.

    stay safe.

    skidmark
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    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

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  9. #9
    Founder's Club Member - Moderator ed's Avatar
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    Let's say even if...

    it was on private property.. but they are partnering with PUBLIC forces (like police for traffic control, etc) and they are not paying for the police 100% and the taxpayers are.. then it is "partially" a public event and the ban would be a violation.
    Carry On.

    Ed

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  10. #10
    Founder's Club Member - Moderator ed's Avatar
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    I just wrote the legal contact from the website and gave them a screenshot of their website ( to time stamp it in the e-mail as QFT) . It being 4:30 on a Friday does not give them much time to fix it .. if they even plan on it.. but they might think about it next time if a bunch of 2nd ammendmenters sued them for the violation. I guess the damages would be that we were ALL planning on going and now can't.
    Carry On.

    Ed

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  11. #11
    Founder's Club Member Skeptic's Avatar
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    skidmark wrote:
    Skeptic wrote:
    I get the impression that the arena is privately owned by a non governmental not for profit group, at least from their website.

    So the outdoor area could be privately owned.
    Look at http://www.crystalcity.org/default.a...2&SubId=36. Crystal City is a "Business Improvement District" - a partnering of private businesses and Arlington County.

    IANAL etc., but there is nothing to suggest that the streets are "owned" by "a non-governmental not for profit group." BIDs are most definately For Profit.

    If you really want to verify the status of the streets, contact the Arlington County Planning Office and ask if the county abandoned them as public streets, and if so the date and county resolution information that made it happen. For those not familiar with this, a locality can abandon ownership of a street and allow it to become the property of one or several of the landowners abutting the street. It then become a "private way".

    I seriously doubt Arlington County abandoned the streets surrounding Crystal City, if only because the parking fines are too profitable to give up.

    stay safe.

    skidmark
    Yeah I didn't realize it was going to be in the streets,I thought it might be in the area next to the Arena stage which is owned by a not for profit group that does business at that address.

  12. #12
    Regular Member IanB's Avatar
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    It is very possible the area in question is private property, and they own the streets. We ran into this at Fairfax Corner and another such entity exists in Silver Spring, MD. In those two cases, the area appears to be public space, but the entire area is private property. They have streets, street signs, and stop signs. However, all of the buildings, roads, etc are owned and maintained by the private land owner.

  13. #13
    Founder's Club Member - Moderator ed's Avatar
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    ok.. so.. if they have private streets lets just say.. I am still not ok with it if they are using ANY public funds for their event if they do not follow the law. If they have extra traffic cops and they are not paying for the extra traffic cops and the citizens are.. then I have an issue. I wrote their board chair, ops manager and attorney.. but I dont expect action as it is this weekend. maybe next time
    Carry On.

    Ed

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  14. #14
    Founder's Club Member Skeptic's Avatar
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    ed wrote:
    ok.. so.. if they have private streets lets just say.. I am still not ok with it if they are using ANY public funds for their event if they do not follow the law. If they have extra traffic cops and they are not paying for the extra traffic cops and the citizens are.. then I have an issue. I wrote their board chair, ops manager and attorney.. but I dont expect action as it is this weekend. maybe next time
    Yeah, seriously.. that could be the wave of the future. Sell off the public property in the cities to big mega corps of multinational congolomerates.

    Almost reminds me of how OCP bought Detroit in Robocop

    But I am serious when I say this could be a trend in the future, Government and Big Business hand in hand.

  15. #15
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    nakedshoplifter wrote:
    It is very possible the area in question is private property, and they own the streets. We ran into this at Fairfax Corner and another such entity exists in Silver Spring, MD. In those two cases, the area appears to be public space, but the entire area is private property. They have streets, street signs, and stop signs. However, all of the buildings, roads, etc are owned and maintained by the private land owner.
    Fairfax Corner was quite clearly posted as private property. Don't know about the Silver Spring place.

    The map for this event shows the stage to be in the street. Having been in the area before, I do not recall any signage indicating private property, and I can tell you for a fact the Arlington County issues parking tickets for the area. Again, IANAL but my guess is it is public land.

    Nobody seems to have bothered to call Arlington County Planning Office to get the absolute straight scoop. I might just do that on Monday just to show that it can be done.:P

    Did anybody go? Were you OC'ing? Did you get harassed or busted? Did you get heatstroke?

    stay safe.

    skidmark
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
    ----Allahpundit

  16. #16
    Founder's Club Member - Moderator ed's Avatar
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    skidmark wrote:
    Nobody seems to have bothered to call Arlington County Planning Office to get the absolute straight scoop.

    I wrote them all including their legal contact.. no reply from any of them. If I was going to that event, then I would have called to check.
    Carry On.

    Ed

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