• We are now running on a new, and hopefully much-improved, server. In addition we are also on new forum software. Any move entails a lot of technical details and I suspect we will encounter a few issues as the new server goes live. Please be patient with us. It will be worth it! :) Please help by posting all issues here.
  • The forum will be down for about an hour this weekend for maintenance. I apologize for the inconvenience.
  • If you are having trouble seeing the forum then you may need to clear your browser's DNS cache. Click here for instructions on how to do that
  • Please review the Forum Rules frequently as we are constantly trying to improve the forum for our members and visitors.

Crystal Rocks event - Illegal preemption?

treadresistant

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 16, 2008
Messages
17
Location
Arlington, ,
imported post

http://www.crystalcity.org/eventdetail.asp?IdEvent=296

It's a concert on public property, open to the public, held in Virginia. Is there something I'm missing?

Prohibited Items:
OutsideBeverages Prohibited
Video Recording Prohibited
Audio Recording Prohibited
No Weapons or Weapon-Like Devices
No Banners/Signs
No Controlled Substances
No Offensive Behavior
No Containers (ice chests, food baskets, etc)
 

vbnative73

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 7, 2008
Messages
215
Location
Va Beach, 23456
imported post

Seems like a clear cut case to me. I could barely see the case for not allowing CC due to the alcohol, even though it's not in a bar or restaurant, but barring OC seems like a clear violation of the law to me.

There's my .02. Anyone else wanna chime in?
 

Skeptic

Founder's Club Member
Joined
Oct 2, 2007
Messages
585
Location
Goochland, Virginia, USA
imported post

I get the impression that the arena is privately owned by a non governmental not for profit group, at least from their website.

So the outdoor area could be privately owned.
 

vbnative73

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 7, 2008
Messages
215
Location
Va Beach, 23456
imported post

Look at maps.live.com or google earth. From a look at the area and the description, it sounds like they're gonna close the street to traffic and have the concert right there. If so, that's as public as public property can get.

There's a grassy park-looking area there, but there's too many trees for a concert.
 

DoubleR

Campaign Veteran
Joined
May 8, 2006
Messages
689
Location
Fairfax County, VA, ,
imported post

I'm quite sure that Vornado (formerly Charles E. Smith) owns the whole works, including the streets. While the streets allow egress and have names, I expect that Vornado owns the streets, also. This is actually pretty common, with this type of development.
 

ed

Founder's Club Member - Moderator
Joined
Mar 8, 2008
Messages
4,841
Location
Loudoun County - Dulles Airport, Virginia, USA
imported post

I just wrote in under the CONTACT US page:

I saw your website today.

Under prohibited items you list weapons. If you are on any public property or use any public funds for your event (public services, etc) it would be a violation of the law for you to not allow law abiding citizens their right to bear arms. I suggest you check with your attorney and then remove the weapon ban or change the wording to allow firearms to be carried legally by citizens. Thanks.

- - -

Prohibited Items:
Outside Beverages Prohibited
Video Recording Prohibited
Audio Recording Prohibited
No Weapons or Weapon-Like Devices
No Banners/Signs
No Controlled Substances
No Offensive Behavior
No Containers (ice chests, food baskets, etc)
 

skidmark

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Jan 15, 2007
Messages
10,444
Location
Valhalla
imported post

Skeptic wrote:
I get the impression that the arena is privately owned by a non governmental not for profit group, at least from their website.

So the outdoor area could be privately owned.

Look at http://www.crystalcity.org/default.asp?PageId=2&SubId=36. Crystal City is a "Business Improvement District" - a partnering of private businesses and Arlington County.

IANAL etc., but there is nothing to suggest that the streets are "owned" by "a non-governmental not for profit group." BIDs are most definately For Profit.

If you really want to verify the status of the streets, contact the Arlington County Planning Office and ask if the county abandoned them as public streets, and if so the date and county resolution information that made it happen. For those not familiar with this, a locality can abandon ownership of a street and allow it to become the property of one or several of the landowners abutting the street. It then become a "private way".

I seriously doubt Arlington County abandoned the streets surrounding Crystal City, if only because the parking fines are too profitable to give up.

stay safe.

skidmark
 

ed

Founder's Club Member - Moderator
Joined
Mar 8, 2008
Messages
4,841
Location
Loudoun County - Dulles Airport, Virginia, USA
imported post

Let's say even if...

it was on private property.. but they are partnering with PUBLIC forces (like police for traffic control, etc) and they are not paying for the police 100% and the taxpayers are.. then it is "partially" a public event and the ban would be a violation.
 

ed

Founder's Club Member - Moderator
Joined
Mar 8, 2008
Messages
4,841
Location
Loudoun County - Dulles Airport, Virginia, USA
imported post

I just wrote the legal contact from the website and gave them a screenshot of their website ( to time stamp it in the e-mail as QFT) . It being 4:30 on a Friday does not give them much time to fix it .. if they even plan on it.. but they might think about it next time if a bunch of 2nd ammendmenters sued them for the violation. I guess the damages would be that we were ALL planning on going and now can't.
 

Skeptic

Founder's Club Member
Joined
Oct 2, 2007
Messages
585
Location
Goochland, Virginia, USA
imported post

skidmark wrote:
Skeptic wrote:
I get the impression that the arena is privately owned by a non governmental not for profit group, at least from their website.

So the outdoor area could be privately owned.

Look at http://www.crystalcity.org/default.asp?PageId=2&SubId=36. Crystal City is a "Business Improvement District" - a partnering of private businesses and Arlington County.

IANAL etc., but there is nothing to suggest that the streets are "owned" by "a non-governmental not for profit group." BIDs are most definately For Profit.

If you really want to verify the status of the streets, contact the Arlington County Planning Office and ask if the county abandoned them as public streets, and if so the date and county resolution information that made it happen. For those not familiar with this, a locality can abandon ownership of a street and allow it to become the property of one or several of the landowners abutting the street. It then become a "private way".

I seriously doubt Arlington County abandoned the streets surrounding Crystal City, if only because the parking fines are too profitable to give up.

stay safe.

skidmark
Yeah I didn't realize it was going to be in the streets,I thought it might be in the area next to the Arena stage which is owned by a not for profit group that does business at that address.
 

IanB

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 18, 2006
Messages
1,896
Location
Northern VA
imported post

It is very possible the area in question is private property, and they own the streets. We ran into this at Fairfax Corner and another such entity exists in Silver Spring, MD. In those two cases, the area appears to be public space, but the entire area is private property. They have streets, street signs, and stop signs. However, all of the buildings, roads, etc are owned and maintained by the private land owner.
 

ed

Founder's Club Member - Moderator
Joined
Mar 8, 2008
Messages
4,841
Location
Loudoun County - Dulles Airport, Virginia, USA
imported post

ok.. so.. if they have private streets lets just say.. I am still not ok with it if they are using ANY public funds for their event if they do not follow the law. If they have extra traffic cops and they are not paying for the extra traffic cops and the citizens are.. then I have an issue. I wrote their board chair, ops manager and attorney.. but I dont expect action as it is this weekend. maybe next time
 

Skeptic

Founder's Club Member
Joined
Oct 2, 2007
Messages
585
Location
Goochland, Virginia, USA
imported post

ed wrote:
ok.. so.. if they have private streets lets just say.. I am still not ok with it if they are using ANY public funds for their event if they do not follow the law. If they have extra traffic cops and they are not paying for the extra traffic cops and the citizens are.. then I have an issue. I wrote their board chair, ops manager and attorney.. but I dont expect action as it is this weekend. maybe next time
Yeah, seriously.. that could be the wave of the future. Sell off the public property in the cities to big mega corps of multinational congolomerates.

Almost reminds me of how OCP bought Detroit in Robocop :lol::lol:

But I am serious when I say this could be a trend in the future, Government and Big Business hand in hand.
 

skidmark

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Jan 15, 2007
Messages
10,444
Location
Valhalla
imported post

nakedshoplifter wrote:
It is very possible the area in question is private property, and they own the streets. We ran into this at Fairfax Corner and another such entity exists in Silver Spring, MD. In those two cases, the area appears to be public space, but the entire area is private property. They have streets, street signs, and stop signs. However, all of the buildings, roads, etc are owned and maintained by the private land owner.

Fairfax Corner was quite clearly posted as private property. Don't know about the Silver Spring place.

The map for this event shows the stage to be in the street. Having been in the area before, I do not recall any signage indicating private property, and I can tell you for a fact the Arlington County issues parking tickets for the area. Again, IANAL but my guess is it is public land.

Nobody seems to have bothered to call Arlington County Planning Office to get the absolute straight scoop. I might just do that on Monday just to show that it can be done.:p

Did anybody go? Were you OC'ing? Did you get harassed or busted? Did you get heatstroke?

stay safe.

skidmark
 

ed

Founder's Club Member - Moderator
Joined
Mar 8, 2008
Messages
4,841
Location
Loudoun County - Dulles Airport, Virginia, USA
imported post

skidmark wrote:
Nobody seems to have bothered to call Arlington County Planning Office to get the absolute straight scoop.


I wrote them all including their legal contact.. no reply from any of them. If I was going to that event, then I would have called to check.
 
Top