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Thread: OC Article In the Seattle Times (6/8)

  1. #1
    Regular Member Jamfish's Avatar
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    http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/htm...encarry08.html

    ====================================
    Packing in public: Owners not gun-shy
    By Nicholas Riccardi
    Los Angeles Times

    PROVO, Utah — For years, Kevin Jensen carried a pistol everywhere he went, tucked in a shoulder holster beneath his clothes.

    In hot weather, the holster was almost unbearable. Pressed against his skin, the firearm was heavy and uncomfortable. Hiding the weapon made him feel like a criminal.

    One evening he stumbled across a site that urged gun owners to do something revolutionary: Carry your gun openly for the world to see as you go about your business.

    In most states, there's no law against that.

    Jensen, 28, decided to give it a try. A few days later, his gun was visible, dangling from a black holster strapped around his hip as he walked into a Costco. His heart raced as he ordered a Polish dog at the counter. No one called police. No one stopped him.

    He now carries his Glock 23 openly into his bank, restaurants and shopping centers. He wore the gun to a Ron Paul rally. He and his wife, Clachelle, drop off their 5-year-old daughter at elementary school with pistols dangling from their hip holsters and never have received a complaint or a wary look.

    He said he tries not to flaunt his gun. "We don't want to show up and say, 'Hey, we're here, we're armed, get used to it.' " But he and others who publicly display their guns have a common purpose.

    The Jensens are part of a fledgling movement to make a firearm as common an accessory as an iPod. Called open-carry by its supporters, the movement has attracted grandparents, graduate students and lifelong gun enthusiasts like the Jensens.

    "What we're trying to say is, 'Hey, we're normal people who carry guns,' " said Travis Devereaux, 36, of West Valley, a Salt Lake City suburb. He works for a credit-card company and sometimes walks around town wearing a cowboy hat and packing a pistol in plain sight. "We want the public to understand it's not just cops who can carry guns."

    Police acknowledged the practice is legal, but some said it makes their lives tougher.

    Police Chief John Greiner recalled that last year in Ogden, Utah, a man was openly carrying a shotgun on the street. When officers pulled up to ask him about the gun, he started firing. Police killed the man.

    Guns a part of life


    As Clachelle Jensen pushed the shopping cart holding their two young children during a recent trip to Costco, her husband admired the new holster wrapped around her waist. "I like the look of that low-rise gun belt," he said.

    The Jensens' pistols were snapped into holsters attached to black belts that hug their waists. Guns are a fact of life in their household. Their 5-year-old daughter, Sierra, has a child-sized .22 rifle she handles only in her parents' presence.

    Clachelle Jensen, the daughter of a Central California police chief, began shooting when she was about Sierra's age.

    "I love [guns]," she said. "I wouldn't ever be without them."

    Her husband's first encounter with guns came when he was 11. His grandfather died and left him a 16-gauge shotgun. The gun stayed locked away but fascinated him through his teenage years. He persuaded his older brother to take him shooting in the countryside near their home south of Salt Lake City.

    "I immediately fell in love with it," said Kevin Jensen, a five-year member of the Army Reserve. "I like things that go 'boom.' "

    Jensen kept up to 10 guns in the couple's 1930s-style bungalow in Santaquin, 21 miles south of Provo. In January 2005, he decided to get a permit to carry a concealed weapon, mainly for self-defense.

    "I'm not going to hide in the corner of a school and mall and wait for the shooting to stop," he said.

    When he bought a Glock and the dealer threw in an external hip holster, he began researching the idea of carrying the gun in public and came upon opencarry.org.

    The Web site, run by two Virginia gun enthusiasts, claims 4,000 members nationwide. It summarizes the varying laws in each state that permit or forbid the practice.

    According to an analysis by Legal Community Against Violence, a gun-control group in San Francisco that tracks gun laws, at least eight states largely prohibit it, including Iowa and New Jersey. Those that allow it, including Washington, have different restrictions.

    Utah has no law prohibiting anyone from carrying a gun in public, as long as it is two steps from firing. For example, the weapon may have a loaded clip but must be uncocked, with no bullets in the chamber.

    Those who obtain a concealed-weapons permit in Utah don't have that restriction. Also, those younger than 18 can carry a gun openly with parental approval and a supervising adult in close proximity.

    Most of the time, people don't notice Jensen's gun. That's not uncommon, said John Pierce, a law student and computer consultant in Virginia who is a co-founder of opencarry.org.

    "People are carrying pagers, BlackBerries, cellphones," Pierce said. "They see a black lump on your belt and their eyes slide off."

    Sometimes the reactions are comical. Bill White, 24, a graduate student in ancient languages at the University of Colorado, Boulder, openly wears his Colt pistol when he goes to his local Starbucks. A tourist from California recently noticed him and snapped a photo on his cellphone.

    "He said it would prove he was in the Wild West," White recalled.

    But there are times the response is more severe. Devereaux has been stopped several times by police, most memorably in December when walking around his neighborhood.

    An officer pulled up and pointed his gun at Devereaux, warning he would shoot to kill. In the end, eight officers arrived, cuffed Devereaux and took his gun before Devereaux convinced them they had no legal reason to detain him.

    Devereaux saw the incident as not giving ground on his rights. "I'm proud that happened," he said.

    Copyright © 2008 The Seattle Times Company
    ========================================

    The part that concerns me is the bit tacked on bya Seattle Times staff reporter:

    Washington

    While it's legal to openly carry a firearm in Washington, state regulations say that exhibiting any weapon "apparently capable of producing bodily harm" in an intimidating manner is a gross misdemeanor. In addition, weapons are prohibited in many places, such as courthouses, liquor establishments that are off-limits to minors, and jails. There are a variety of restrictions. For example, you aren't allowed to carry a loaded handgun in a car unless you have a concealed pistol license.

    Sources: Seattle Times staff reporter Angel Gonzalez; opencarry.org

    It's a generally favorable article, I'm just concerned about that bit of local commentary. Especially the part about RCW 9.41.270, which actually states, "in a manner, under circumstances, and at a time and place that either manifests an intent to intimidate another or that warrants alarm for the safety of ther persons." Of course, that's not very expedient to quote and might (heaven forbid) give readers the permission they feel they need to openly carry.

    Thank you, handy Washington Gun Rights pamphlet.
    Support these forums, please donate if you are able to OpenCarry.Org!

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    Looks like overall good press! Well done guys!

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    Regular Member gsx1138's Avatar
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    Hmm, no comment section. Oh what will all the lefties do if they can immediately complain about something?
    "Think lightly of yourself and deeply of the world." ~ Musashi

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    gsx1138 wrote:
    Hmm, no comment section. Oh what will all the lefties do if they can immediately complain about something?
    Start trolling here of course.

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    Founder's Club Member - Moderator Gray Peterson's Avatar
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    The PI has a comment's section, the Times does not.

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    Regular Member Mainsail's Avatar
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    It appeared in today's News Tribune as well.



    It ends on this:

    According to an analysis by Legal Community Against Violence, a gun control group in San Francisco that tracks gun laws, at least eight states largely prohibit it, including Iowa and New Jersey. Those that allow it have different restrictions: In California, people can openly carry only unloaded guns. In Washington, a 1969 law essentially bans openly carrying firearms and other weapons where doing so can cause alarm.
    I posted the following comment:

    "In Washington, a 1969 law essentially bans openly carrying firearms and other weapons where doing so can cause alarm."

    This is misinformation. Here’s the 1969 law:
    RCW 9.41.270: It shall be unlawful for any person to carry, exhibit, display, or draw any firearm, dagger, sword, knife or other cutting or stabbing instrument, club, or any other weapon apparently capable of producing bodily harm, in a manner, under circumstances, and at a time and place that either manifests an intent to intimidate another or that warrants alarm for the safety of other persons.

    The phrase “causes alarm” does not appear anywhere in the paragraph. To make the carry unlawful, it must “warrant alarm for the safety of others”. This is an entirely different standard. Peaceable open carry of a firearm is lawful in WA.

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    Mainsail wrote:
    It appeared in today's News Tribune as well.



    It ends on this:

    According to an analysis by Legal Community Against Violence, a gun control group in San Francisco that tracks gun laws, at least eight states largely prohibit it, including Iowa and New Jersey. Those that allow it have different restrictions: In California, people can openly carry only unloaded guns. In Washington, a 1969 law essentially bans openly carrying firearms and other weapons where doing so can cause alarm.
    Yargh. Time to push the editor for a correction. Show them some training bulletins. I haven't looked at today's Olympian yet to see if the article is in it too. If it is and has the same error...

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    Mainsail wrote:
    It appeared in today's News Tribune as well.



    It ends on this:

    According to an analysis by Legal Community Against Violence, a gun control group in San Francisco that tracks gun laws, at least eight states largely prohibit it, including Iowa and New Jersey. Those that allow it have different restrictions: In California, people can openly carry only unloaded guns. In Washington, a 1969 law essentially bans openly carrying firearms and other weapons where doing so can cause alarm.
    I posted the following comment:

    "In Washington, a 1969 law essentially bans openly carrying firearms and other weapons where doing so can cause alarm."

    This is misinformation. Here’s the 1969 law:
    RCW 9.41.270: It shall be unlawful for any person to carry, exhibit, display, or draw any firearm, dagger, sword, knife or other cutting or stabbing instrument, club, or any other weapon apparently capable of producing bodily harm, in a manner, under circumstances, and at a time and place that either manifests an intent to intimidate another or that warrants alarm for the safety of other persons.

    The phrase “causes alarm” does not appear anywhere in the paragraph. To make the carry unlawful, it must “warrant alarm for the safety of others”. This is an entirely different standard. Peaceable open carry of a firearm is lawful in WA.
    Nice one Mainsail.
    "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity."

    "though I walk through the valley in the shadow of death, I fear no evil, for I know that you are by my side" Glock 23:40

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    Regular Member Mainsail's Avatar
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    Mainsail wrote:
    It appeared in today's News Tribune as well.



    It ends on this:

    According to an analysis by Legal Community Against Violence, a gun control group in San Francisco that tracks gun laws, at least eight states largely prohibit it, including Iowa and New Jersey. Those that allow it have different restrictions: In California, people can openly carry only unloaded guns. In Washington, a 1969 law essentially bans openly carrying firearms and other weapons where doing so can cause alarm.
    I posted the following comment:

    "In Washington, a 1969 law essentially bans openly carrying firearms and other weapons where doing so can cause alarm."

    This is misinformation. Here’s the 1969 law:
    RCW 9.41.270: It shall be unlawful for any person to carry, exhibit, display, or draw any firearm, dagger, sword, knife or other cutting or stabbing instrument, club, or any other weapon apparently capable of producing bodily harm, in a manner, under circumstances, and at a time and place that either manifests an intent to intimidate another or that warrants alarm for the safety of other persons.

    The phrase “causes alarm” does not appear anywhere in the paragraph. To make the carry unlawful, it must “warrant alarm for the safety of others”. This is an entirely different standard. Peaceable open carry of a firearm is lawful in WA.
    One person replied to my comment in the Trib:
    I think that "manifesting an intent to intimidate" would cause alarm, wouldn't you?
    I replied thusly:
    Again, the phrase “cause alarm” does not appear in the RCW. To “manifest an intent to intimidate” one would have to show clearly (manifest) a plan or purpose (intent) to persuade or dissuade by frightening (intimidate) someone. A citizen walking in the park or on a city street with an openly carried firearm would not fall reasonably under that definition.

    To “warrant alarm for the safety of other persons”, someone would have to have a justifiable reason to believe or think (warrant) that they feared for their safety. Passing a person in the park or on a city street who is carrying a firearm in a holster on their belt would not reasonably warrant a fear for their safety.
    Additionally, the statue lists four conditions that must be met to before it can be enforced. They are: manner, circumstance, time, AND place (the qualifier “or” does not appear).

    The Federal Way Police training bulletin explains the RCW thusly:
    “In this law, mere possession of an openly carried handgun is not illegalized. In order to support an enforcement action under this law the officer must be able to articulate (describe in a convincing manner) malicious intent by the suspect or circumstances that reasonably cause alarm to the public. In either case, because open carry in Washington is presumably legal, the articulation must include something beyond mere open possession.”

    In fact, the Washington Court of Appeals has recently affirmed a trial court's holding that this Washington law "does not and, under the [Washington State] Constitution, cannot prohibit the mere carrying of a firearm in public." State v. Casad, 139 Wash.App. 1032 (Wash. App.Div.2 2007) (suppressing evidence of unlawful possession of firearms because stop of Defendant was not grounded in reasonable articulable suspicion of any crime).

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    Regular Member Jamfish's Avatar
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    I didn't realize how short-cut the original story was by The Times and The Tribune.

    Here's the original LA Times story link:
    http://www.latimes.com/news/nationwo...0,849912.story
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    Yea the wire story is much smaller.

    I tried to respond to that reply also Mainsail but for some reason I didn't get my registration e-mail from them so I could not finish my registration.
    "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity."

    "though I walk through the valley in the shadow of death, I fear no evil, for I know that you are by my side" Glock 23:40

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    Mainsail,

    thank you very much for your work on clarifying this. I would like to see you clarify this to the TNT author of the artical who added the tidbit at the end.



    I was not happy when I read the last sentence.

    thanks

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