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Thread: How do you respond to this comment

  1. #1
    Michigan Moderator Big Gay Al's Avatar
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    With a concealed fire arm you have the element of surprise. If the bad guy sees your gun what stops him from shooting you on sight. I say keep them guessing. What they don't know can be their undoing. why advertise????
    I'm sure this has been asked and answered before. I just don't know if my fragile little mind can cope with hunting for it. And yes, I did see the Open vs. Concealed topic. Which I think covers the argument.

    What I'm looking for, is a short response that will make me happy, and turn the anti-oc on his/her proverbial butt.

    Thank you.
    Big Gay Al
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    If he's a BG what keeps him from shooting you on sight, gun or no? He's a BG, not a smart guy or logical guy or reasonable guy.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Big Gay Al wrote:
    What I'm looking for, is a short response that will make me happy, and turn the anti-oc on his/her proverbial butt.

    Thank you.
    Rabid fanatics are seldom turned around by the truth or facts.

    There is emotion on both sides of this issue and I think unnecessarily so.

    My response to the statement "Your going to be the first one shot" is always the same: Show me a documented case in the fifty states where this has ever happened and I will consider your remark to possibly have some merit.

    Like the blood in the streets, shoot outs at every traffic light and OK corral stories that precluded shall issue laws this should be relegated to false urban legend status.

    It not is as important how you carry but whether or not you care enough to carry.

    Hope this makes you happy.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Michigan Moderator Big Gay Al's Avatar
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    Thanks for both answers so far. Gives me ammo for the next time.
    Big Gay Al
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  5. #5
    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    I think that is a feasible argument under certain, strict conditions. Let's say a fe BG's have burst into a gas station food mart late one night while you are there picking out a snack or soda for the road. They are really mean animals and one sees you and your sidearm. Chances are they are going to do one of two things: exit immediately, or open fire. Were I present and saw this coming down, I would most likely try to cover my piece and make myself "invisible", not necessarily in that order, then try to gain a target.

    There is the distinct possibility that if you are spotted armed, a BG(s) will try to take you out first. But I would bet, if the action has not commenced, they will just exit the premises and go somewhere else rather than engage you in a gunfight. What this means is a visible sidearm talks silently for you. If seen by BG(s), I suspect that in most all cases, they will avoid an armed confrontation with you. You are the unknown factor.. but they do know you are armed.

    And then there is this. If you are CC'ing (mind you, I am 100% in favor of CC'ing and do so myself when I deem it in my best interests), you look like anyone else, so a BG may just decide to continue to the ultimate end since he does not know you are carrying. Then it is up to you to force the encounter rather than letting your "little friend" speak for you.

    Really the bottom line in all of this is quite simple. You just never know what is going to happen or how a bad thing is going to come down until it actually is on you LIKE RIGHT NOW. Armed or not, this is where the rubber meets the road (or the s--- hits the fan if you'd rather). Your best carriage is to try your damnedest to always be aware of your surroundings, play "what if" games in your head, and follow your resolve to get through things if the worse does happen.

    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

    Si vis pacem, para bellum.

    America First!

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Southernboy - I cannot disagree with the different possiblities you outline.
    Nothing beats situational awareness and making the best response. I still pose the problem of Show me a documented case in the fifty states where this has ever happened and I will consider your remark to possibly have some merit.

    I carry both ways, although more often open. I am quite familiar with the arguments/reasons from both sides of the fence. Still I wonder why no one from this blog or others have been able to site one specific reference to an OCer being neutralized first.

    Yata hey
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Regular Member WARCHILD's Avatar
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    I think all should take a read of Gary Harvey's essay on this ongoing debate. His summation pretty much says it all. Let's leave the OC vs CC out of the vs debate and concentrate on the support of each side of the coin with the right and ability to carry your firearm "ANY WAY YOU PLEASE". I carry primarily OC but if needed CC. and in my opinion-- NEITHER SIDE-- can prove with documentation that one is safer / better than the other. Part of our rights and liberties IS the ability to protect the right of "PERSONAL CHOICE".

    'nough said

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    Campaign Veteran Nelson_Muntz's Avatar
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    Look people in the eye much?

    With responsibility, in this case, comes situational awareness.

    You'll likely have alarm bells ringing long before the wild eyed knucklehead even notices you are carrying. If not, buy a level 3 serpa.

    :?


    ETF: spelling

  9. #9
    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    Grapeshot wrote:
    Southernboy - I cannot disagree with the different possiblities you outline.
    Nothing beats situational awareness and making the best response. I still pose the problem of Show me a documented case in the fifty states where this has ever happened and I will consider your remark to possibly have some merit.

    I carry both ways, although more often open. I am quite familiar with the arguments/reasons from both sides of the fence. Still I wonder why no one from this blog or others have been able to site one specific reference to an OCer being neutralized first.

    Yata hey
    Firstly, I would like to comment on situational awareness. I am a firm, 100% believer in "always being aware of your surroundings". Just ask my daughters. I drummed this into them from an early age and I can tell you, it paid off.

    Secondly, I am also a firm and 100% supporter of both OC and CC, with the decision to do whichever resting upon the carrier. I think it's absurd that gun people do all of this in-fighting about carrying options and tactics when instead, they should be supporting and encouraging each other for the common exercise of a basic right.

    Thirdly, I cannot supply any sort of evidence or documentation regarding an OC'er being a primary target in a criminal venture. I can only call upon a measure of common sense and imagination. My take is simple on this. Never exclude or take for granted, the actions of those who may wish to do you harm. To do so is to court folly.

    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

    Si vis pacem, para bellum.

    America First!

  10. #10
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    I fully agree with the philosophy that either OC or CC is acceptable and that neither should bash the other.

    The OPs question was directed to asking for a potential response. That is all that anybody here was attempting to do - not add fuel to any flame war.

    Yata hey
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    I happen to prefer CC over OC, however, I also understand that what works for tattedupboy is not necessarily what works others, and that is why I am careful not to criticiize anyone's choices on how they carry, and which is also why I take people to task who criticize my preferred mode of carry.

    Nevertheless, if someone asks you this question, you may choose to respond by saying something along the lines of: While concealed carry does indeed introduce the element of surprise, with OC, the element of surprise is not necessary. If someone accosts you, they know that they are putting themselves in jeopardy, which makes them think twice about accosting you. So, yes, while CC introduces the element of surprise, it is not as effective at preventing a crime against you as OC is.

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    My opinion is similar to tattedupboy. I CC more than I OC but support both. As for OC, you may lose the element of surprise, but you may gain the power of deterrence. Criminals may see your gun and shoot you first, on the other hand, they may see the gun and decide to find another victim to target.

    Support of OC and CC,

    ProguninTN.

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    Campaign Veteran deepdiver's Avatar
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    I am also in the both CC and OC have pros/cons and carry both ways depending on multiple factors camp. Generally speaking, people who speak or argue in absolutes are arguing with blinders.

    If the badguy doesn't see your gun, what's to deter him from shooting you because you appear to be an easy target? In the same regard that we carry all the time everywhere we can legally because we do not know the day or moment we will need to be armed, we also do not how often situational awareness or open carry deters a crime. While "what they don't know can be their undoing", what they do know if someone is OC, may be their deterrent and prevent ever needing to use lethal force in the first place.
    Bob Owens @ Bearing Arms (paraphrased): "These people aren't against violence; they're very much in favor of violence. They're against armed resistance."

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    Hello...1st post. I simply take into account how many times OPEN Carrying officers are attacked. Rarely. Of course a visible uniform may be reason for BG backing away, a 'luxury' we common folks don't have.

    It is 'surprise' after a BG has commited to the bad deed that may cause him to react.

    That's something that sometimes cannot be avoided and one more reason for keeping ones' self in condition orange.

    If one open carries , it signals an aura of confidence and awareness a person may not ordinarily be able to exude if concealing, and thus becomes far more of a benefit than liability.

    Nice site. Thanks!

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    Campaign Veteran deepdiver's Avatar
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    Welcome to the site MrMitch.
    Bob Owens @ Bearing Arms (paraphrased): "These people aren't against violence; they're very much in favor of violence. They're against armed resistance."

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    Michigan Moderator Big Gay Al's Avatar
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    First, to all those who replied with possible results to my original question, Thank you!

    Now, to the other responses, I was not looking to start a debate on the benefits/detriments of Open Carry vs. Concealed Carry. Not that debate isn't healthy, it's just there are plenty of other threads that have asked that question.

    In any event, I have plenty of "ammo" to work with, and I thank you all for your help.


    Thank you.
    Big Gay Al
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    Regular Member thnycav's Avatar
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    Why do you have to try to win a debate in the first place. If you choose to oc than do so. If someone tries to debate you with that argument just tell them well I guess I would have to take my chances then.

    There are too many what ifs that you could prove any point right or wrong. Life is not as cut and dry as that there is a lot of it all depends.


    "To a believer, no proof is necessary; to a sceptic, no proof is enough."

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    Michigan Moderator Big Gay Al's Avatar
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    thnycav wrote:
    Why do you have to try to win a debate in the first place. If you choose to oc than do so. If someone tries to debate you with that argument just tell them well I guess I would have to take my chances then.

    There are too many what ifs that you could prove any point right or wrong. Life is not as cut and dry as that there is a lot of it all depends.


    "To a believer, no proof is necessary; to a sceptic, no proof is enough."
    I guess I'm like a few others on this forum. I get tired of the same old arguments we get from those virulently opposed to Open Carry. The most common being that we'd be first targets of a BG who spots us.

    Usually, I just shrug off those comments with something like "It's not happened that way to me, yet." But you know how there are some anti-2nd amendment people you just can't convince otherwise. Same with the anti-OC, pro-CC people. And of course, I'm helping to "ruin" CC for them, by giving a "bad example" to the general public.


    Big Gay Al
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    With a concealed fire arm you have the element of surprise. If the bad guy sees your gun what stops him from shooting you on sight. I say keep them guessing. What they don't know can be their undoing. why advertise????
    What I'm looking for, is a short response that will make me happy, and turn the anti-oc on his/her proverbial butt.
    "I guess when he shoots me first that will give you the extra second to pull your weapon" (if they CC) or "hide under the table" (if they don't carry).

  20. #20
    Michigan Moderator Big Gay Al's Avatar
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    "I guess when he shoots me first that will give you the extra second to pull your weapon" (if they CC) or "hide under the table" (if they don't carry).

    I like that. Thanks!
    Big Gay Al
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    There's lots of varying opinions on the subject at hand!

    The FACT is... Bad Guys are opportunists and they pick their prey. NO rocket Science, NO PhD, just an opportunity where they"think" they have the upper hand. Open Carry may just senda BGon their merry way looking for an easy hit elsewhere. Then again, maybe not... I don't know and you don't know.If it's legal to OC where you are and you prefer to OC, then by all means go for it. Here in Texas, we can only conceal carry. That's OK, I'm perfectly happyto havethe priviledge to carry a consealed firearm.

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    Regular Member MetalChris's Avatar
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    MFuess wrote:
    There's lots of varying opinions on the subject at hand!

    The FACT is... Bad Guys are opportunists and they pick their prey. NO rocket Science, NO PhD, just an opportunity where they"think" they have the upper hand. Open Carry may just senda BGon their merry way looking for an easy hit elsewhere.
    But don't you know it's our duty to CC just so we can lure these individuals into trying to rob us so we can bust a cap?

    Oh wait...

    Anyway, I have yet to carry openly in public, but CC on a regular basis. The only reason I haven't OCed yet is because I don't want to deal with cops harassing me. I'm one of those people that walks around looking pissed off all the time (not voluntarily, it's just the way my facial structure is), so I don't think I'd be a good ambassador for OC anyway. Obviously I have no problem with open carry, and I'm sure I'll eventually "cross over" to it. Hopefully I won't be shot by an uber-leet totally awesome hitman when I do...

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    MFuess wrote:
    There's lots of varying opinions on the subject at hand!

    The FACT is... Bad Guys are opportunists and they pick their prey. NO rocket Science, NO PhD, just an opportunity where they"think" they have the upper hand. Open Carry may just senda BGon their merry way looking for an easy hit elsewhere. Then again, maybe not... I don't know and you don't know.If it's legal to OC where you are and you prefer to OC, then by all means go for it. Here in Texas, we can only conceal carry. That's OK, I'm perfectly happyto havethe priviledge to carry a consealed firearm.
    It's not a priviledge. It shouldn't be a priviledge. It is a right. It should be a right.

  24. #24
    Regular Member Gene Beasley's Avatar
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    Grapeshot wrote:
    My response to the statement "Your going to be the first one shot" is always the same: Show me a documented case in the fifty states where this has ever happened and I will consider your remark to possibly have some merit.
    Sorry that I'm messing with the flow of the thread but think that in the interest of having a comeback to your reply, there isa recent example. I am a avid OC'er and understand where you're coming from. The city council shooting inKirkwood, MO outside of St Louis on 8 Feb 2008;
    The gunman killed one officer outside City Hall, then walked into the chambers and shot another before continuing to fire, Panus said.

    Janet McNichols, a reporter covering the meeting for the St. Louis Post-Dispatch, told the newspaper that the 7 p.m. meeting with about 30 people had just started when the shooter rushed in and opened fire with at least one weapon. He started yelling about shooting the mayor while walking around and firing, hitting police Officer Tom Ballman in the head, she said.
    Granted, the first two victims were uniformed officers OC'ing, nevertheless, they were obstacles in the BG plan to kill the mayor.

    I'm sure this all happened very quickly and if private citizens were allowed to OC (not being marked as such by a uniform/badge), the BG is not going to be able to scan everyone to locate the weapon threat to him. But the OC'er, I feel, isin a better position to draw and eliminate the threat.


  25. #25
    Michigan Moderator Big Gay Al's Avatar
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    Problem is, as you point out, these were uniformed officers. THEY are almost always considered possible targets. And in this instance, I think what we have is someone with an agenda. Not your "typical, out to rob a bank, bad guy."

    The sitution that is presented by most anti-OC Pro-CC people is the "target of opportunity. Where you are OCing in say the local 7-11/QD/Convience store, and erstwhile robber comes in, sees you and "BANG!" you're dead. However, the usual response from the bad guy, is to seek his fortune elsewhere.

    In the instance you cite, this guy would have, and did shoot anyone who got in his way, gun or no gun. In essence, the horrible example in Kirkwood MO, don't count.
    Big Gay Al
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