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MFuess · Jun 10, 2008

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There's lots of varying opinions on the subject at hand!

The FACT is... Bad Guys are opportunists and they pick their prey. NO rocket Science, NO PhD, just an opportunity where they"think" they have the upper hand. Open Carry may just senda BGon their merry way looking for an easy hit elsewhere. Then again, maybe not... I don't know and you don't know.If it's legal to OC where you are and you prefer to OC, then by all means go for it. Here in Texas, we can only conceal carry. That's OK, I'm perfectly happyto havethe priviledge to carry a consealed firearm.

MetalChris · Jun 10, 2008

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MFuess wrote:

There's lots of varying opinions on the subject at hand!

The FACT is... Bad Guys are opportunists and they pick their prey. NO rocket Science, NO PhD, just an opportunity where they"think" they have the upper hand. Open Carry may just senda BGon their merry way looking for an easy hit elsewhere.

But don't you know it's our duty to CC just so we can lure these individuals into trying to rob us so we can bust a cap?

Oh wait... :uhoh:

Anyway, I have yet to carry openly in public, but CC on a regular basis. The only reason I haven't OCed yet is because I don't want to deal with cops harassing me. I'm one of those people that walks around looking pissed off all the time (not voluntarily, it's just the way my facial structure is), so I don't think I'd be a good ambassador for OC anyway.

Obviously I have no problem with open carry, and I'm sure I'll eventually "cross over" to it. Hopefully I won't be shot by an uber-leet totally awesome hitman when I do... :uhoh:

WhiteRabbit22 · Jun 10, 2008

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MFuess wrote:

There's lots of varying opinions on the subject at hand!

The FACT is... Bad Guys are opportunists and they pick their prey. NO rocket Science, NO PhD, just an opportunity where they"think" they have the upper hand. Open Carry may just senda BGon their merry way looking for an easy hit elsewhere. Then again, maybe not... I don't know and you don't know.If it's legal to OC where you are and you prefer to OC, then by all means go for it. Here in Texas, we can only conceal carry. That's OK, I'm perfectly happyto havethe priviledge to carry a consealed firearm.

It's not a priviledge. It shouldn't be a priviledge. It is a right. It should be a right.

Gene Beasley · Jun 16, 2008

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Grapeshot wrote:

My response to the statement "Your going to be the first one shot" is always the same: Show me a documented case in the fifty states where this has ever happened and I will consider your remark to possibly have some merit.

Sorry that I'm messing with the flow of the thread but think that in the interest of having a comeback to your reply, there isa recent example. I am a avid OC'er and understand where you're coming from. The city council shooting inKirkwood, MO outside of St Louis on 8 Feb 2008;

The gunman killed one officer outside City Hall, then walked into the chambers and shot another before continuing to fire, Panus said.

Janet McNichols, a reporter covering the meeting for the St. Louis Post-Dispatch, told the newspaper that the 7 p.m. meeting with about 30 people had just started when the shooter rushed in and opened fire with at least one weapon. He started yelling about shooting the mayor while walking around and firing, hitting police Officer Tom Ballman in the head, she said.

Granted, the first two victims were uniformed officers OC'ing, nevertheless, they were obstacles in the BG plan to kill the mayor.

I'm sure this all happened very quickly and if private citizens were allowed to OC (not being marked as such by a uniform/badge), the BG is not going to be able to scan everyone to locate the weapon threat to him. But the OC'er, I feel, isin a better position to draw and eliminate the threat.

Big Gay Al · Jun 16, 2008

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Problem is, as you point out, these were uniformed officers. THEY are almost always considered possible targets. And in this instance, I think what we have is someone with an agenda. Not your "typical, out to rob a bank, bad guy."

The sitution that is presented by most anti-OC Pro-CC people is the "target of opportunity. Where you are OCing in say the local 7-11/QD/Convience store, and erstwhile robber comes in, sees you and "BANG!" you're dead. However, the usual response from the bad guy, is to seek his fortune elsewhere.

In the instance you cite, this guy would have, and did shoot anyone who got in his way, gun or no gun. In essence, the horrible example in Kirkwood MO, don't count.

Alec411 · Jun 16, 2008

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WHY OC? When outside my home I go CC, maintaining my element of suprise. I also do something that most of my friends think is insane. Inside my home I always OC!

I live in Phoenix in an area famous for home invaisions. I don't need to be in my living room when 3 dudes break in, with my gun in a closet some where! Rarely will they excuse you for a moment so you can go to your bed room!

There is an added benefit, when my grandchildren are here, I don't have to worry about their accidently finding a loaded gun. The ONLY loaded gun is on my hip. Others are locked securely in a massive (floor & wall) bolted Gun Safe. Further, the holster features retention, so Lil one can't pull a gun from my holster.

A couple of years ago there was a hard kick at my front door, by the third kick that did open the door, there was a .44 Mag. welcome mat. Could only hear running feet.

BTW: Replaced the door with steel frame & door, with pick blocks, etc.

Alec411

Grapeshot · Jun 16, 2008

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The truth be known: I wake up, put on my pants and I am armed (OC) until I get back in bed each night 24/7/52. Only occasionally do I CC - nursing home visits, state parks and a few others either as a matter of courtesy or law.

I strongly feel that it is my obligation to educate as many people as possible not only that it is their right but more importantlyit is the intelligent thing to do.

Whether I have chosen to be or not, I am a poster child of one for the 2nd Amendment and I will always try to act accordingly.

Yata hey

Citizen · Jun 16, 2008

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Big Gay Al wrote:

SNIP What I'm looking for, is a short response that will make me happy, and turn the anti-oc on his/her proverbial butt.

"I have an additional priority."

If he asks, then, "Educating others in the 2A."

If he asks or comments further, then, "What have you personally done in the last 24 hours to educate people on the 2nd Amendment?"

If he comments further, "Oh, I also use it as a magnet to get closed-minded CCers to reveal themselves to me."

Big Gay Al · Jun 16, 2008

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Citizen wrote:

Big Gay Al wrote:

SNIP What I'm looking for, is a short response that will make me happy, and turn the anti-oc on his/her proverbial butt.

Click to expand...

"I have an additional priority."

If he asks, then, "Educating others in the 2A."

If he asks or comments further, then, "What have you personally done in the last 24 hours to educate people on the 2nd Amendment?"

If he comments further, "Oh, I also use it as a magnet to get closed-minded CCers to reveal themselves to me."

I really like the last one.

Alec411 · Jun 17, 2008

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Grapeshot::

You & I! If you are not armed 24/7, you are not armed!

Glad we think alike!

Alec411

see my earlier post on "Why Open Carry <<<<------------TO OTHERS!

Grapeshot · Jun 17, 2008

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Alec411 wrote:

Grapeshot::

You & I! If you are not armed 24/7, you are not armed!

Glad we think alike!

Alec411

see my earlier post on "Why Open Carry <<<<------------TO OTHERS!

There are those that say I am a paranoid, delusional psychotic!
I just give them a wild eyed look and reply, "Damn I love the recognition!":lol:

Yata hey

XD-GEM · Jun 17, 2008

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Here's one that's a modification of an answer to the "Why do you carry at gun" at all question:

Well, if I can't fit a policeman in the holster ON my pants, I'm certainly not going to fit one IN my pants.

Don't worry about the "tactical" arguments. As said earlier, you can't convince a fanatic.

I'd like to get a CC permit for those times and places when I feel CC would be a better option, but in Louisiana, such a license is considered "public information" and can be accessed by any member of the public who asks for it. In other parts of the country, lists of CCW license holders have been printed in the paper. For me, the concern is with my employer. They are adamantly anti-gun, and I wouldn't put it past them to do a check of this record and dismiss any employee on it. I can't have my gun at work, but I don't want to lose my job just because I want to have it anywhere else.

Big Gay Al · Jun 17, 2008

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XD-GEM wrote:

Here's one that's a modification of an answer to the "Why do you carry at gun" at all question:

Well, if I can't fit a policeman in the holster ON my pants, I'm certainly not going to fit one IN my pants.

Don't worry about the "tactical" arguments. As said earlier, you can't convince a fanatic.

I'd like to get a CC permit for those times and places when I feel CC would be a better option, but in Louisiana, such a license is considered "public information" and can be accessed by any member of the public who asks for it. In other parts of the country, lists of CCW license holders have been printed in the paper. For me, the concern is with my employer. They are adamantly anti-gun, and I wouldn't put it past them to do a check of this record and dismiss any employee on it. I can't have my gun at work, but I don't want to lose my job just because I want to have it anywhere else.

It's your choice of course, but if it was me, I'd get the permit, then if I was fired, I'd sue for wrongful termination. But that's just me.

Fortunately, here in Michigan, such info is protected.

XD-GEM · Jun 17, 2008

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Big Gay Al wrote:

XD-GEM wrote:

Here's one that's a modification of an answer to the "Why do you carry at gun" at all question:

Well, if I can't fit a policeman in the holster ON my pants, I'm certainly not going to fit one IN my pants.

Don't worry about the "tactical" arguments. As said earlier, you can't convince a fanatic.

I'd like to get a CC permit for those times and places when I feel CC would be a better option, but in Louisiana, such a license is considered "public information" and can be accessed by any member of the public who asks for it. In other parts of the country, lists of CCW license holders have been printed in the paper. For me, the concern is with my employer. They are adamantly anti-gun, and I wouldn't put it past them to do a check of this record and dismiss any employee on it. I can't have my gun at work, but I don't want to lose my job just because I want to have it anywhere else.

Click to expand...

It's your choice of course, but if it was me, I'd get the permit, then if I was fired, I'd sue for wrongful termination. But that's just me.

Fortunately, here in Michigan, such info is protected.

There's a bill now to protect that info, but the guy who authored it was just elected to the US House, so I don't know what will happen to it. Louisiana is a right to work state, so they can fire you for any reason they want. My position is covered by a union contract, though; so there may be some wiggle room there.

Big Gay Al · Jun 18, 2008

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I'm told, Michigan is a "Work at Will" state, which pretty much means the same thing. However, since most companies usually have some sort of policy on which they base how they may fire you, if they go against this policy, they can still be sued.

Also, I found this, and it applies to Louisiana. From Wikipedia:

Forty-two U.S. states and the District of Columbia recognize public policy as an exception to the at-will rule.[9] Under the public policy exception, an employer may not fire an employee if it would violate the state's public policy or a state or federal statute.

SouthernBoy · Jun 18, 2008

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There is also this. Termination under such guise would likely be grounds for a civil rights suit as they could be shown to have discriminated against you an violated your civil rights.

icode · Jun 18, 2008

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SouthernBoy wrote:

There is also this. Termination under such guise would likely be grounds for a civil rights suit as they could be shown to have discriminated against you an violated your civil rights.

While this is true, I have to agree with XD GEM on this. even though he would have excellent grounds for suit he would have a black mark on his name in the area, which could make getting further employment hard. Sometimes those of us who live in the real world have to weigh risk to reward. JMO.

XD-GEM · Jun 18, 2008

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icode wrote:

SouthernBoy wrote:

There is also this. Termination under such guise would likely be grounds for a civil rights suit as they could be shown to have discriminated against you an violated your civil rights.

Click to expand...

While this is true, I have to agree with XD GEM on this. even though he would have excellent grounds for suit he would have a black mark on his name in the area, which could make getting further employment hard. Sometimes those of us who live in the real world have to weigh risk to reward. JMO.

Yes, my field has very limited employment availabilities (one guy I know was dismissed for a first offense DWI and it was months before he got another job even at a reduced pay rate). I'm being over-cautious, I know, but I received some good news today. I had written to a state legislator who is supposed to be helping handle the bill I mentioned previously. He says it will most likely pass into law by the end of the week. Since most bills in a session are not activated until August, I only have a short wait (if he's right). If the bill doesn't pass, I still have the civil rights lawsuit action as a potential threat, but my employer is a subsidiary of a deep-pockets company which could easily outspend me in such a suit.

ETA: Minutes after I posted, the legislator notified me that the bill had passed and now awaits Governor Jindal's signature. Given his recent speech to the NRA, I expect he'll sign it. Thanks to Rep. Cameron Henry for his kind communication with me.

Phoenixphire · Jun 19, 2008

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Big Gay Al wrote:

With a concealed fire arm you have the element of surprise. If the bad guy sees your gun what stops him from shooting you on sight. I say keep them guessing. What they don't know can be their undoing. why advertise????

Click to expand...

I'm sure this has been asked and answered before. I just don't know if my fragile little mind can cope with hunting for it. And yes, I did see the Open vs. Concealed topic. Which I think covers the argument.

What I'm looking for, is a short response that will make me happy, and turn the anti-oc on his/her proverbial butt.

Thank you.

Here is my position.

The chance that an armed assailant will shoot at me first, because said assailant:

a) is armed;
b) notices that I am armed;
c) desires to shoot someone, or gains the desire to do so due to noticing I am armed;

is increased.

However, the likelihood of being in such position where all of the qualifying factors occur is very minimal.

The benefits of open carry are far greater. They have all been listed before, but the one I focus on most is: Education.

Where education comes into play is that I don't want to be the only one carrying. I hope to convince and show others the benefits of open carry. That way, it isn't only me with the firearm in the store, but the clerk is carrying, and so in my neighbor, who happens to be there buying milk.

I want every responsible, peace-loving, law-abiding citizen in my community to be open carrying. I want every other person you see to be walking with a firearm on their hip. That way, the criminal must REALLY be stupid. He isn't going up against the random, unusual armed citizen. He is going up against 3, 5, or 15 armed citizens.

Who needs the police? I am an armed citizen, dependent on myself and my fellow Americans.

Increased risk of being the first target? Maybe, but it is a tiny risk, and I am willing to accept it. And the more of us who open carry, the lower that risk goes. That is my counter-argument.

"Live FREE, or die!"

Grapeshot · Jun 19, 2008

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Phoenixphire wrote:

Big Gay Al wrote:

With a concealed fire arm you have the element of surprise. If the bad guy sees your gun what stops him from shooting you on sight. I say keep them guessing. What they don't know can be their undoing. why advertise????

Click to expand...

I'm sure this has been asked and answered before. I just don't know if my fragile little mind can cope with hunting for it. And yes, I did see the Open vs. Concealed topic. Which I think covers the argument.

What I'm looking for, is a short response that will make me happy, and turn the anti-oc on his/her proverbial butt.

Thank you.

Click to expand...

Here is my position.

The chance that an armed assailant will shoot at me first, because said assailant:

a) is armed;
b) notices that I am armed;
c) desires to shoot someone, or gains the desire to do so due to noticing I am armed;

is increased.

However, the likelihood of being in such position where all of the qualifying factors occur is very minimal.

The benefits of open carry are far greater. They have all been listed before, but the one I focus on most is: Education.

Where education comes into play is that I don't want to be the only one carrying. I hope to convince and show others the benefits of open carry. That way, it isn't only me with the firearm in the store, but the clerk is carrying, and so in my neighbor, who happens to be there buying milk.

I want every responsible, peace-loving, law-abiding citizen in my community to be open carrying. I want every other person you see to be walking with a firearm on their hip. That way, the criminal must REALLY be stupid. He isn't going up against the random, unusual armed citizen. He is going up against 3, 5, or 15 armed citizens.

Who needs the police? I am an armed citizen, dependent on myself and my fellow Americans.

Increased risk of being the first target? Maybe, but it is a tiny risk, and I am willing to accept it. And the more of us who open carry, the lower that risk goes. That is my counter-argument.

"Live FREE, or die!"

While not a brief and witty retort, it is nevertheless a nice synopsis on why we OC.

+1 Well said!

Yata hey

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