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Thread: OCDO gets fan mail from Canada!

  1. #1
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    Looks like this LA Times article has storred the pot around the world!

    Canadian emails to sayMrs. Jensen will be in Canada's version of Attica prison should she ever travel there.:shock: And the whole Jensen family will be searched at the border now.:X

    The email seems so angry, doesn't it?

    Anyone know if this email violates any Canadaina laws? Canadian laws don't respect free speech as much our's do under the First Amendment.

    Forwarded Message:

    Subj: Media Coverage

    There is something tastless - and warped - about a mother, wearing a gun holster, toddler in hand collecting groceries. Here, that mommie would be locked up - and the key thrown away.

    The syndicated story in which the Jensens "appear" has done nothing for your cause outside of the United States, and has bascially reinforced the stereotype of Americans, which the vast majority of us find throughly tasteless - and dangerous - to put it mildly. The image of the gauche American, wearing a ten gallon hat, sitting on the Champs Elysee, unable to comprehend a thing - is what your organisation represents to many of us.

    If the Jensens are so vocal about this misconstrued right to carry a gun - why not show your faces, instead of a holster? That way, at the Canadian border, you can be identified, your possessions searched to ensure no illegal arms are about your person before enjoying your time in the North ? I guess the vast majority of us are thankful most Americans don't own a passport and stay within their own country, if this pressure group is anything to go by.

    British police, incidentally, are not armed as a matter of course, with ARVs ( Armed Response Vehicles) on call 24 hours a day to back-up the unarmed bobby which is something British citizens jealously protect. My brother is a British police officer, and vehemently opposes arming. Care to comment?

    Gun control for many of us is as important as the right to "bear arms" is for you. Actually, doesn't your right come from being part of an organised militia ? Or is that groups of mommies and daddies going to Costco with Glocks?

    You are as entitled to your views as those who oppose such behaviour. The next time someone gets mown down in my home city of London UK, or my adopted home of Toronto, by a firearm which will no doubt be traced back to the US, I will try to see the sense in what you are doing.

    Ian Carruthers

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    Mike wrote:
    Anyone know if this email violates any Canadaina laws?Â* Canadian laws don't respect free speech as much our's do under the First Amendment.
    1. Canadian speech restriction laws only apply if said speech is found offensive to a protected minority group (firearms owners, while they may be a minority in Canada, are not protected.)

    2. Ian Carruthers might be interested to know that British police have re-armed themselves with MP5s in the wake of the Underground bombings.

    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...e_armed_uk.jpg

    3. He also might be interested to know that even though the UK has a blanket ban on all handguns and most long guns, people still find ways to kill each other:

    A 14 year old boy was beaten and stabbed to death by a mob:
    http://cofcc.org/?p=1535

    Harry Potter actor stabbed, killed:
    http://cofcc.org/?p=1498

    Parents buy children body armor:
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...-children.html

    4. Even when gun control fails to put an end to murder and crime in London and Toronto, Carruthers somehow manages to blame gun owners in OTHER COUNTRIES for their violence problems. Responsible American gun owners like the Jensens (sadly) have no effect on crime in Canada or the UK (if they somehow did, the above incidents might not have happened.) I suggest hoplophobes like Carruthers stop focusing on inanimate objects like guns and knives focus on the individuals and groups committing violent crimes against innocent people.

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    why do so many leftist liberals,seem so angry and unhappy?

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    benron wrote:
    why do so many leftist liberals,seem so angry and unhappy?
    Patchouli oil fumes?:P

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    FREEDOM!!!! I Love it! I love the USA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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    I fail to see what Mr. Carruthers' problem is. He is not a citizen of the United States, but is instead a subject of the United Kingdom. If he wishes to support gun control in his country, that's his business and his country. However, the United States is our country and the right to keep and bear arms is one of the many keystones of our constitution. For better or worse, it is one of our inalienable rights that guarantees the American people to assume a defense against tyranny.

    Mr. Carruthers declares a mother should be locked up for exercising her rights. I suppose that anyone who speaks out against the government or refuses unreasonable searches should also be jailed and the key thrown away as well?

    Should a mother allow herself and her children to be at the mercy of those who give no quarter? Most Americans, even those who vehemently oppose the second amendment, do not think so. A firearm can be an effective weapon for defense of self, family, friends, and community; however, a firearm is not an effective weapon for defense when it is locked up in a safe at home. That is why we carry our firearms.

    Mr. Carruthers describes the very infringements that caused this country to be founded and it is evident that his image of the United States is one painted by Hollywood.

    No, the National Guard is not the militia; the National Guard is a branch of the United States Army, which in turn is controlled by the federal government. Mr. Carruthers, if you would review our second amendment, you will find that it first speaks of a "well regulated Militia" - a militia is implied as a body of citizens not under control of a government entity, but instead under control of a community. If you read further on, you will notice: "the right of the People to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed." - in other words, the People (citizens of the United States) have a right to own weapons and carry them.

    Mr. Carruthers, the next time someone is "mowed down" by a criminal in London or Toronto, I suggest you look closely at the perpetrator of the crime instead of the instrument he or she used to commit the crime. The individual chooses to commit a criminal act, not the instrument used in the process of the crime. Whatever the perpetrator's reasons for doing so, he or she is still responsible for the crime.

    Mr. Carruthers, I am sorry that you feel as you do about firearms and our second amendment. However, the most disappointing aspect I find about you is that you assume people from another country are backwards, arrogant, uncivilized barbarians simply because they have a different view of the world than you do. You take great pains to smother us all with your opinion without respecting ours. It appears to me that it is you who has the problem - you have no respect for any human being and think of yourself as superior to every person who holds a different opinion than you do. You, sir, give yourself and your countrymen a bad name.

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    Does ANYONE even wonder or now understand WHY I moved from Europe/Scandinavia ?

    I've been here for 10 years (Aug 8th this year). Well, the Email speaks for itself now doesn't it.

    I AM PROUD TO BE AN AMERICAN (as of Jan 14th 2008 as I got my U.S CITIZENSHIP).

    Here I can FINALLY have the CHANCE to protect myself, family and anyone else (even Ian Carruthers, if he visits) when the need to do so.

    GOD BLESS AMERICA...LIBERTY.

    TJ

    P.S I lived with theSUBJECTS of Great Britain for 2 years back in the early 90's and kinda feel sorry for them D.S

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    Mr. Carruther's should look at the last time the British tried to take away our guns.



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    I think our friend Ian would soil his lower garments if he ever realized just how many people in his "adopted hometown" own firearms.

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    Mr. Carruthers' opinion is irrelevant. He is welcome to continue his life in chains and I'll be certain to never lift a single firearm in his defense as he so desires.



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    1. Bruce Montague (The Canadian patriot, not the actor)

    2. Canada = Path to cradle to grave nanny state hell U.S. = Path to individual self reliance and liberty.


    He wore his gun outside his pants for all the honest world to see. Pancho & Lefty

    The millions of people, armed in the holy cause of liberty, and in such a country as that which we possess, are invincible by any force which our enemy can send against us....There is no retreat but in submission and slavery! ...The war is inevitable–and let it come! I repeat it, Sir, let it come …………. PATRICK HENRY speech 1776

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    Dear O/C.Org members

    Greetings fromyour cousins in Xenaphobialand, (previously AKA the Rainbow Nation), South Africa.

    First let me offer our sincere congratulations on making a statement regarding open carry in so many states in the wonderful US of A.

    On behalf of tens of thousands of ‘daily carry’ legal gunowners (and from the 2.5 million ordinary gunowners) located here, I and we salute you all.

    As for Ian "Tastless and Warped", as a father of two and grandfather to four lovely girls, I personally feel that the wearing of legal firearms openly by law-abiding folk on a daily basishas to be so ‘required and necessary’ these days that it should perhaps become legislated.

    To my mind and I think many others like me there is something tasteful and naturalto see a mother wearing a firearm whilst visiting the mall with a toddler in hand. As it openly sends a message to all in her community that firstly she is well-prepared and adequately-equipped to handle and address pretty much any emergency that may occur.

    Secondly and far more importantly it openly sends a clear message to anyone that harboursgrievance or malicious harm to the community that there are people around who care enough to become involved in their own (plus their loved ones);protection and safety. What's more, this’ community service’ isn't costing the taxpayer one darn cent in revenue.

    I submit that fooling ourselves these days by ignoring the plain fact that we're living in dangerous times isn't going to help anyone, the head-in-the-sand, blow-you-I'm-alright-Jack' mentality merely serves to assistcriminals and terrorists who primarily because of this foolish outlook merely tend to view us as soft targets ripe for the picking.

    For what its worth, I would liken you're "Mommy would/ should be locked up" philosophy to the incarceration of Jesus of Nazareth. So I say Shame on You.

    Just like all the other members of O/C.Org,the story about the Jensen’s actually delivers us from theridiculous and totally idiotic message of personal disarmament that the anti-self-defense leftists would have us all swallow.

    That by abdicating the God-given duty of self-preservation that we owe to ourselvesand all those around us, we are simply kow-towing to the openand clear agenda of those that would clearly enslave us or permit us to be enslaved.

    I think the vast majority of people outside the United States are not as you say falling for a negative stereotype of Americans at all, this message has been for some time now merely an illusion promoted and propagated by its enemies.

    Far rather look to the Founding Fathers, -the very same insightful and caring Elders of their nation that gave them the Constitution thatall others can only admire, (especially the2nd-Amendment), to understand the true nature of the mainstream American psyche.

    In the main, I think these God-fearing peace-loving folk simply want to be left alone to their own designs without interference by home-grown and radical-fundamentalist international terrorists, somehow I can't find fault with that.

    Frankly, the image of the stereotypical American -for me at least- actually fosters cherished memories of many extremely fine and admirable characters in TV and Film such as John Wayne, Gene Autry, Chuck Connors, Roy Rodgers and more recently Chuck Norris.

    What Society could possibly fail to be molded, crafted and finally melded into a law-abiding respect for the legal firearm than one brought up on regular fare such as this.

    No Carruthers, I truly think your callous remarks should be tempered with the memory I recall of people of your ilk as reported on during WWII.

    The Politically Correct term for people like yourself at the time was ‘Conscientious Objector’, ordinary folk knew you by an ordinary name however, Gutless Coward.

    Martin L Hedington

    Gauteng Regional Advocacy Director: Gun Owners of South Africa; http://www.gunownerssa.org

    GM: Community Crime-prevention Initiatives

    Publisher: Conditioned Victim? Your Choice

    [size=Executive Director: Live Fire TV South Africa. ]
    Attached Images Attached Images

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    [quote][font="Times New Roman"]

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    Welcome, Martin! Nice post; it's good to see that other parts of the world share the same attitude towards personal responsibility.

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    The next time someone gets mown down in my home city of London UK, or my adopted home of Toronto, by a firearm which will no doubt be traced back to the US, I will try to see the sense in what you are doing.


    By your own tacit admission, this hypothetical exported American gun is itself only harmful in the hands of someone intent on mayhem. Kind of suggests that the core problem is the person and not the instrumentality, eh? Also, the British police are well enough armed. Maybe not the meter maids, but the guys who shot an unarmed man in the "tube" for running with a backpack were good enough shots alright. That and Canadians are armed at nearly the same rate as Yanks.Just thought you should know.

    -ljp

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    Martin_tu wrote:
    Dear O/C.Org members

    Greetings fromyour cousins in Xenaphobialand, (previously AKA the Rainbow Nation), South Africa.

    First let me offer our sincere congratulations on making a statement regarding open carry in so many states in the wonderful US of A.

    On behalf of tens of thousands of ‘daily carry’ legal gunowners (and from the 2.5 million ordinary gunowners) located here, I and we salute you all.

    As for Ian "Tastless and Warped", as a father of two and grandfather to four lovely girls, I personally feel that the wearing of legal firearms openly by law-abiding folk on a daily basishas to be so ‘required and necessary’ these days that it should perhaps become legislated.

    To my mind and I think many others like me there is something tasteful and naturalto see a mother wearing a firearm whilst visiting the mall with a toddler in hand. As it openly sends a message to all in her community that firstly she is well-prepared and adequately-equipped to handle and address pretty much any emergency that may occur.

    Secondly and far more importantly it openly sends a clear message to anyone that harboursgrievance or malicious harm to the community that there are people around who care enough to become involved in their own (plus their loved ones);protection and safety. What's more, this’ community service’ isn't costing the taxpayer one darn cent in revenue.

    I submit that fooling ourselves these days by ignoring the plain fact that we're living in dangerous times isn't going to help anyone, the head-in-the-sand, blow-you-I'm-alright-Jack' mentality merely serves to assistcriminals and terrorists who primarily because of this foolish outlook merely tend to view us as soft targets ripe for the picking.

    For what its worth, I would liken you're "Mommy would/ should be locked up" philosophy to the incarceration of Jesus of Nazareth. So I say Shame on You.

    Just like all the other members of O/C.Org,the story about the Jensen’s actually delivers us from theridiculous and totally idiotic message of personal disarmament that the anti-self-defense leftists would have us all swallow.

    That by abdicating the God-given duty of self-preservation that we owe to ourselvesand all those around us, we are simply kow-towing to the openand clear agenda of those that would clearly enslave us or permit us to be enslaved.

    I think the vast majority of people outside the United States are not as you say falling for a negative stereotype of Americans at all, this message has been for some time now merely an illusion promoted and propagated by its enemies.

    Far rather look to the Founding Fathers, -the very same insightful and caring Elders of their nation that gave them the Constitution thatall others can only admire, (especially the2nd-Amendment), to understand the true nature of the mainstream American psyche.

    In the main, I think these God-fearing peace-loving folk simply want to be left alone to their own designs without interference by home-grown and radical-fundamentalist international terrorists, somehow I can't find fault with that.

    Frankly, the image of the stereotypical American -for me at least- actually fosters cherished memories of many extremely fine and admirable characters in TV and Film such as John Wayne, Gene Autry, Chuck Connors, Roy Rodgers and more recently Chuck Norris.

    What Society could possibly fail to be molded, crafted and finally melded into a law-abiding respect for the legal firearm than one brought up on regular fare such as this.

    No Carruthers, I truly think your callous remarks should be tempered with the memory I recall of people of your ilk as reported on during WWII.

    The Politically Correct term for people like yourself at the time was ‘Conscientious Objector’, ordinary folk knew you by an ordinary name however, Gutless Coward.

    Martin L Hedington

    Gauteng Regional Advocacy Director: Gun Owners of South Africa; http://www.gunownerssa.org

    GM: Community Crime-prevention Initiatives

    Publisher: Conditioned Victim? Your Choice

    [size=Executive Director: Live Fire TV South Africa. ]
    Martin

    Thanks and welcome to OpenCarry.org.

    While I agree with 99.9% of your post, I would like to bring up one small thing. The term "Conscientious Objector" as used in WWII should not be equated to coward. Now the same term used in Vietnam, maybe so.

    The majority of the Conscientious Objectors in WWII held firm religious convictions. Take the most famous case of Medal of Honor recepient Desmond Doss. http://www.desmonddoss.com/

    Although this man steadfastly refused to bear arms, he put his life on the line to tend to the wounded, from both sides.

    When called to go to war, he did not hesistate, he just refused to be part of the killing,he thought there were more than enough men doing the killing, he would serve his nation by helping to keep others alive.

    If you want to call Mr. Carruthers a coward, then by all means use the term "spineless, gutless worm of a sniveling coward", just don't use the term that has been proudly worn by such heroes as Desmond Doss.

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    [quote][font="Times New Roman"]

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    Martin_tuwelcome to OCDO, and thanks for those warming words alll the way from South Africa.

    It's Great that the "word" about Open Carrying is spreading ALL around the world and L.A Times helped us.

    TJ


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    Ian Carruthers sends us more fan mail!

    He claims to be a "gun control advocate,""legal practicioner," and "cautions us."

    Hmm, caution us - after he warned the Jenson family they would have trouble at the Canadian border and Mrs. Jensen should be locked up. Okie Dockie.

    Hmm - can somebody do some investigation on this fellow and find out who/what he is??

    Again - if you email Ian, please be polite and professional.

    --

    Subject: Hello from the Snowy Wastes


    Hello Mike

    Thanks very much for publishing my note on your forum - complete with my privateemail address in order I can receive directunwelcome communication from some of your members, and for the absence ofdoubt, as a qualified legal practitioner, I would caution you about the manner in which some of your forum members react, and would ask you to remove my email address from your forum forthwith, immediately upon receipt of this request.

    Let's just get a few things straight:

    1) You are entitled to your views, and you'll have to acceptothers are entitled to their views too. That's what "liberty" iscorrect ? Perhaps my cartoon like portrayal of an American in Paris (not Gene Kelly) was a bit unfair.

    2) It is true I am a gun control advocate, as many if us are in Canada and elsewhere.However, I tend to prefer the Conservative Govt here over the Liberals which doesn't exactly make me a left wing mental patient, does it?

    3) Some of your posters tell me British police arm themselves with MP5s. Indeed they do - and have done sofor years in the operational support role, including those on ARV, SFO and other specialist roles. I think you will find the MP5 is being replaced my many UK police services with other more reliable firearms. Indeed the UK MOD police use SA80s on occasion, and the UK Civil Nuclear Constabulary because of their role, are equipped differently. The MOD and the CNC are 2 of the UK police forces that are permanently armed. THE PSNI (Police Service of Northern Ireland) because of the "Troubles" remains armed.

    Today you may be interested to hear, in an exercise using live ammunition, a young officer of Greater Manchester police was accidentally killed. Perhaps, given my relatives are in the police, your members might put away their vitriol targetted at me, and offer with me, my sympathies to the family and colleagues of this young officer.

    4) The image of a woman, carrying a child, with a pistol around her waist might be okay in rural USA or other similar locales, but not where I come from - and again it's a question of optics of what is socially acceptable to some, and notto others.

    Here, and in most places worldwide, it is unfathomable. That we must agree on, surely.

    5) Whilst I appreciate the varioushistory lessons, I don't appreciate the character assassination - and therefore, I would ask with immediate effect, again,you remove my privateemail address as I dont have the time nor inclination to respond to your members.

    6) The patriotism displayed by your members is impressive.

    Lastly, your question about Canadian law...well, just as well I know more than you!

    In the meantime, while I am sure many of your members are good, law abiding people, with an interest in guns just as I have an interest in opera and baroque music, you have to admit, firearms do tend to attract a good deal of people who have other motives in mind - and that to many of us, is why gun control anduniform enforceablerestrictions are key.

    Now, perhaps when publishing this note on your forum - without email address - , one of your keen responders can tell me howcurrent US gun control prevents firearms from getting into the hands of those with ill intent ? And if that can be done, perhaps you can use freedom of expression and liberty to help change my mind, rather than having your members rely on verbal abuse ?

    In fact, why not invite me to be a member of your fourm so my education can be rounded out ?

    Best regards

    IC

    --


    Subject: Hello from the Snowy Wastes




    John:

    FYI.

    Incidentally, can you tell your posters that using the term "wog"even whenwrapped inquotations is unacceptable -no matterif they are trying to make a point which is emotional.

    I am sure you both agree this does not do your cause any good. Having posters call me a snivelling coward is fine - and laughable - but "WOG" in reference to a BrazilianJean Paul de Menezes who was in fact an innocent victimof a law enforcement erroris appalling. You need to get this member of yours on the straight and narrow. I was going to mention this in my response, but this is best handled away from the public eye.

    In the meantime, if you could please ensure the request made to Mike removing my email address is actionedASAP that would be appreciated, as there are only so many history lessons - some polite, others not, I can take. Those that are not polite are being saved. Obviously. Those construed as direct threats (none yet) will be handled seriously, of that, have no doubt.

    I am sure again, the integrity of your pressure group is paramount, and we can handle any wayward responses unofficially I hope.

    Lastly, I am an open minded individual (although my originalemail doesn't tend to show that having re-read it). Composed in haste, regretted at leisure perhaps. The one good thing about my email is for your purposes, it mobilizes the members and makes them more committed to your cause, if the reaction I have seen is anything to go by!

    thanks.

    Best Regards,

    IC

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    I'm a Canadian citizen who is studying (and OCing) in Virginia, andI have to say that I'm embarrassedby this letter writer. Thankfully we'renot all "sheeple" up north,but enough people are that they can hijack the judicial and electoral systems and deny freedom to the rest of us. I know that I speak for a decent number of Canadians when I say that ifapersonwants to remainhelpless then that is his or herright, but I would really appreciate it if they wouldn't feel the need to try and stop me from protecting myself and the people around me.

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    In respect of the genuine Conciencious Objectors, especially those serving as being the exception to the rule such as the person you mention, I hereby apologise.

    Martin L Hedington

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    One point that Ian made in his last email to me is valid. In the interest of professionalism, we should not use any deragatory terms such as "wog" even when we are only quoting from other sources.

    I think that he is thinking over what some have said and his initial email might have been a bit of a kneejerk reaction.

    Let's be courteous and professional in all contact. I have seen other's who started off upset about gun rights turn into believers.

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    I just find it interesting that every neg. comment I read weather it is about Kevin and I or about anyone else; the people have no idea what they are talking about. They don't know any of us or have walked in our shoes. All they seem to do is make fun of, accuse or should I say ASSUME that we are all wackos. What they don't understand is that most of us are very well educated, normal human beings, etc. But everyone already has read this or heard it before. They just seem to be tied to there emotionals for whatever reason and maybe they have had bad experiences with firearms in general or the people they have talked to have. I just find it very sad and feel sorry for them that they have to find ways to talk bad about other people when they don't even know the facts. If people choose to do this it is there own progative and I am not going to stop them, it dosen't hurt my feelings one bit. They can think the way they want to think. I know that I am not going to be the next woman carjacked or raped. Regardless of what they say or think I will always have a firearm with me! I am glad to live in an area that supports it and I am not going to change my ways for anyone regardless of what they say or think. Also if people are so apt to see a photo of Kevin and I, research it! Maybe they will become educated along the way. Here is a few hints..... SLC airport signs, packing heat no apoligies, this site!!, UCC.com, and many other places. Anywho you have to expect all knids of feedback when you allow a story to be done about you. I am not going to just sit back and have my rights taken from me. I will do everything I can to educate people around me and support the 2nd amendment and if it means a little more badtalking from other people to do it, that's just life. There will always be a negative side to everything. At least we are all getting the word out one person at a time!
    "When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty."
    Thomas Jefferson

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    packingmama wrote:
    I just find it interesting that every neg. comment I read weather it is about Kevin and I or about anyone else; the people have no idea what they are talking about. They don't know any of us or have walked in our shoes. All they seem to do is make fun of, accuse or should I say ASSUME that we are all wackos. What they don't understand is that most of us are very well educated, normal human beings, etc. But everyone already has read this or heard it before. They just seem to be tied to there emotionals for whatever reason and maybe they have had bad experiences with firearms in general or the people they have talked to have. I just find it very sad and feel sorry for them that they have to find ways to talk bad about other people when they don't even know the facts. If people choose to do this it is there own progative and I am not going to stop them, it dosen't hurt my feelings one bit. They can think the way they want to think. I know that I am not going to be the next woman carjacked or raped. Regardless of what they say or think I will always have a firearm with me! I am glad to live in an area that supports it and I am not going to change my ways for anyone regardless of what they say or think. Also if people are so apt to see a photo of Kevin and I, research it! Maybe they will become educated along the way. Here is a few hints..... SLC airport signs, packing heat no apoligies, this site!!, UCC.com, and many other places. Anywho you have to expect all knids of feedback when you allow a story to be done about you. I am not going to just sit back and have my rights taken from me. I will do everything I can to educate people around me and support the 2nd amendment and if it means a little more badtalking from other people to do it, that's just life. There will always be a negative side to everything. At least we are all getting the word out one person at a time!

    :celebrate:celebrate:celebrate:celebrate:celebrate :celebrate:celebrate:celebrate:celebrate:celebrate :celebrate:celebrate:celebrate:celebrate:celebrate :celebrate

    tj


  25. #25
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    jpierce wrote:
    One point that Ian made in his last email to me is valid. In the interest of professionalism, we should not use any deragatory terms such as "wog" even when we are only quoting from other sources.

    I think that he is thinking over what some have said and his initial email might have been a bit of a kneejerk reaction.

    Let's be courteous and professional in all contact. I have seen other's who started off upset about gun rights turn into believers.
    Yes, sorry for the "wog" remark. It was undignified. I was just trying to respond in Brit idiom, and to point out that the poor bastard who got shot in the Underground was probably regarded in similar dismissive terms by the cops who shot him. He certainly wasn't the terror bomber they assumed he was. My point was that Mother England likes the taste of blood just fine when it suits her.

    The fact of the matter is that there are already so many guns and so many people with guns here that a gun ban could never work. It's a fact that Americans are armed, by and large. Even if you think that's a terrible, sad state to be in, it is how it is. One answer is to arm yourself against the other armed people, because kind thoughts don't win the day. Just a thought.

    -ljp


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