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Thread: Visiting VA in July

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    I'll be travelling from GA to Midlothian, VA in late July to visit some inlaws. I regularly open carry in GA and enjoy the freedom. However, as I understand it, VA has unrestricted open carry. I'm not too concerned about CC much, as I don't have a reciprocal non-resident license for VA yet.

    Having said the above, what constitutes open carry in VA? In GA, OC is defined by showing at least the grip. Can I wear an IWB holster, untucked, in VA and satisfy the open carry requirements? Or must I use a dedicated OC holster?

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    In VA, the only requirement that has to be met is that is has to be cleary discernible that what you're carrying is a firearm. It is generally accepted that IWB carry satisfies that requirement.

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    smn - you have asked a question that has confused many in Virginia.

    There are those who carry in an IWB and do the "Virginia tuck" - tucking their shirt in exposing only the top portion of the gun. Its a gray area in the law. The applicable code is found in:

    18.2-308. Personal protection; carrying concealed weapons; when lawful to carry.

    A. If any person carries about his person, hidden from common observation, (i) any pistol, revolver, or other weapon designed or intended to propel a missile of any kind by action of an explosion of any combustible material; (ii) any dirk, bowie knife, switchblade knife, ballistic knife, machete, razor, slingshot, spring stick, metal knucks, or blackjack; (iii) any flailing instrument consisting of two or more rigid parts connected in such a manner as to allow them to swing freely, which may be known as a nun chahka, nun chuck, nunchaku, shuriken, or fighting chain; (iv) any disc, of whatever configuration, having at least two points or pointed blades which is designed to be thrown or propelled and which may be known as a throwing star or oriental dart; or (v) any weapon of like kind as those enumerated in this subsection, he shall be guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor (that is, without a CHP of course)

    A second violation of this section or a conviction under this section subsequent to any conviction under any substantially similar ordinance of any county, city, or town shall be punishable as a Class 6 felony, and a third or subsequent such violation shall be punishable as a Class 5 felony. For the purpose of this section, a weapon shall be deemed to be hidden from common observation when it is observable but is of such deceptive appearance as to disguise the weapon's true nature.

    I feel that the best course of action is to use a dedicated OC holster.... just my opinion though.



    Open carry is allowed because there is no law prohibiting it. If you go to a place that serves alcohol for on premises consumption, open carry is required, even if you have a concealed permit. Private property owners can prohibit firearms, without warning, signs or advance notice.

    If you find yourself here earlier in the month, we are doing a Utah permit class on July 12.

    Jim

    www.proactiveshooters.com


    James Reynolds

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    Concealed Firearms Instructor for Virginia, Florida & Utah permits.
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    Campaign Veteran roscoe13's Avatar
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    Despite ProShooters doom and gloom about using an IWB holster, I don't believe there's ANY problem in VA wearing a typical IWB holster that has at least the entire grip above the waistband. Just make sure it stays outside your shirt...
    "The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that's good." - George Washington

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    My normal fashion style is with my shirt tucked into my shorts or pants. If having the grip fully exposed I don't see a problem with IWB carry either. In GA that's considered open carry as well.

    Many thanks to proshooter for posting the relevant code sections.

    If possible, do any other VA residents have an opinion as to if IWB w/grip exposed will satisfy open carry?



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    Regular Member ProShooter's Avatar
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    roscoe13 wrote:
    Despite ProShooters doom and gloom about using an IWB holster, I don't believe there's ANY problem in VA wearing a typical IWB holster that has at least the entire grip above the waistband. Just make sure it stays outside your shirt...
    From a former "leo" point of view, I consider a holster that covers 60 or 70% of a gun to be "observable but is of such deceptive appearance as to disguise the weapon's true nature."

    When you add the possibility of a loosely tucked shirt partially covering the remaining 30-40% when seated, a recomendation to use a dedicated OC is simply a word to the wise.

    I fail to see how that equates to "doom and gloom"

    James Reynolds

    NRA Certified Firearms Instructor - Pistol, Shotgun, Home Firearms Safety, Refuse To Be A Victim
    Concealed Firearms Instructor for Virginia, Florida & Utah permits.
    NRA Certified Chief Range Safety Officer
    Sabre Red Pepper Spray Instructor
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    Instructor Bio - http://proactiveshooters.com/about-us/

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    Campaign Veteran deepdiver's Avatar
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    ProShooter wrote:
    roscoe13 wrote:
    Despite ProShooters doom and gloom about using an IWB holster, I don't believe there's ANY problem in VA wearing a typical IWB holster that has at least the entire grip above the waistband. Just make sure it stays outside your shirt...
    From a former "leo" point of view, I consider a holster that covers 60 or 70% of a gun to be "observable but is of such deceptive appearance as to disguise the weapon's true nature."

    When you add the possibility of a loosely tucked shirt partially covering the remaining 30-40% when seated, a recomendation to use a dedicated OC is simply a word to the wise.

    I fail to see how that equates to "doom and gloom"
    I'm scratching my head here. How does that work? "Oh look, that guy has a gun. Right there, with about 30-40% of it visible above his waistband. Better talk to him for CCing." If you can see 30-40% of it and easily recognize it as a gun then how is it deceptive or concealed? I'm not being a smart ass. I really cannot understand that thought process. That's like seeing a calvary holster with the butt of the revolver clearly sticking out and then saying, "Well, it might be a cell phone since it is so deceptive in appearance but I think it might be a gun and am going to go talk to him."

    :?
    Bob Owens @ Bearing Arms (paraphrased): "These people aren't against violence; they're very much in favor of violence. They're against armed resistance."

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    deepdiver wrote:
    ProShooter wrote:
    roscoe13 wrote:
    Despite ProShooters doom and gloom about using an IWB holster, I don't believe there's ANY problem in VA wearing a typical IWB holster that has at least the entire grip above the waistband. Just make sure it stays outside your shirt...
    From a former "leo" point of view, I consider a holster that covers 60 or 70% of a gun to be "observable but is of such deceptive appearance as to disguise the weapon's true nature."

    When you add the possibility of a loosely tucked shirt partially covering the remaining 30-40% when seated, a recomendation to use a dedicated OC is simply a word to the wise.

    I fail to see how that equates to "doom and gloom"
    I'm scratching my head here. How does that work? "Oh look, that guy has a gun. Right there, with about 30-40% of it visible above his waistband. Better talk to him for CCing." If you can see 30-40% of it and easily recognize it as a gun then how is it deceptive or concealed? I'm not being a smart ass. I really cannot understand that thought process. That's like seeing a calvary holster with the butt of the revolver clearly sticking out and then saying, "Well, it might be a cell phone since it is so deceptive in appearance but I think it might be a gun and am going to go talk to him."

    :?
    There's a difference between "easily recognize" and "observable" as the Code calls it. Keep in mind also, that guns have different grips which are sometimes copied by other products. I have seen knives use the same grips as some small .22 Deringer type pistols. Inside the waistline, they'd look the same.

    Like I said, it was strictly my opinion. Do what makes you comfortable.
    James Reynolds

    NRA Certified Firearms Instructor - Pistol, Shotgun, Home Firearms Safety, Refuse To Be A Victim
    Concealed Firearms Instructor for Virginia, Florida & Utah permits.
    NRA Certified Chief Range Safety Officer
    Sabre Red Pepper Spray Instructor
    Glock Certified Armorer
    Instructor Bio - http://proactiveshooters.com/about-us/

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    smn wrote:
    My normal fashion style is with my shirt tucked into my shorts or pants. If having the grip fully exposed I don't see a problem with IWB carry either. In GA that's considered open carry as well.

    Many thanks to proshooter for posting the relevant code sections.

    If possible, do any other VA residents have an opinion as to if IWB w/grip exposed will satisfy open carry?
    I won't get on you for the grammar in the last sentence - of course it's possible other residents have an opinion

    If someone can recognize it as a gun, it's not, IMHO, failing to be "observable" or "easily recognizable".

    But then, given the number of people I've talked to for 15 minutes or more but who didn't realize I was carrying - OWB - I wonder who they think might recognize it <grin>.

    In short, it would be OC and no big deal.
    Laws alone can not secure freedom of expression; in order that every man present his views without penalty there must be spirit of tolerance in the entire population. -Albert Einstein

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    ProShooter wrote:
    roscoe13 wrote:
    Despite ProShooters doom and gloom about using an IWB holster, I don't believe there's ANY problem in VA wearing a typical IWB holster that has at least the entire grip above the waistband. Just make sure it stays outside your shirt...
    From a former "leo" point of view, I consider a holster that covers 60 or 70% of a gun to be "observable but is of such deceptive appearance as to disguise the weapon's true nature."

    When you add the possibility of a loosely tucked shirt partially covering the remaining 30-40% when seated, a recomendation to use a dedicated OC is simply a word to the wise.

    I fail to see how that equates to "doom and gloom"
    Until/unless you can come up with some VA case law that supports your opinion, it's just that. And I'll stand by my doom and gloom statement.
    "The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that's good." - George Washington

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    Regular Member ProShooter's Avatar
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    roscoe13 wrote:



    Until/unless you can come up with some VA case law that supports your opinion, it's just that. And I'll stand by my doom and gloom statement.
    I wasn't aware that I need to cite case law to assert on opinion.



    ETA - not Virginia, but since you asked.......



    STATE OF MICHIGAN

    COURT OF APPEALS

    ______________________________________________






    PEOPLE OF THE STATE OF MICHIGAN,


    UNPUBLISHED

    September 12, 2000


    Plaintiff-Appellee,






    v



    ALONDRE J. WILLIAMS,


    No. 214591

    Oakland Circuit Court

    LC No. 97-152265-FH


    Defendant-Appellant.

    ______________________________________________

    Before: Owens, P.J., and Jansen and Burns,1 JJ.

    PER CURIAM.

    Defendant appeals by right his convictions of possession with intent to deliver less than fifty grams of cocaine, MCL 333.7401(2)(a)(iv); MSA 14.15(7401)(2)(a)(iv); carrying a concealed weapon, MCL 750.227; MSA 28.424; and possession of a firearm in the commission of a felony, MCL 750.227b; MSA 28.424(2). Defendant was sentenced as a third habitual offender, MCL 769.11; MSA 28.1083, to two to twenty years' imprisonment for the possession with intent to deliver conviction, two to five years' imprisonment for the carrying a concealed weapon conviction, and two years' imprisonment for the felony-firearm conviction. We affirm.

    On appeal, defendant argues that there was insufficient evidence to convict him of possession with intent to deliver a controlled substance and of carrying a concealed weapon. In evaluating whether the evidence introduced against defendant supports a conviction, we view the evidence in the light most favorable to the prosecution and determine whether a rational factfinder could conclude that the elements of the crime were proven beyond a reasonable doubt. People v Wolfe, 440 Mich 508, 513-514; 489 NW2d 748 (1992), mod 441 Mich 1201 (1992); People v Fetterley, 229 Mich App 511, 515; 583 NW2d 199 (1998).

    No actual delivery of narcotics is required to prove intent to deliver. Wolfe, supra at 524; Fetterley, supra at 517. Intent may be inferred from all the facts and circumstances, Fetterley, supra at 517-518; People v Safiedine, 163 Mich App 25, 29; 414 NW2d 143 (1987), and because of the difficulty of proving an actor's state of mind, minimal circumstantial evidence is sufficient, People v Bowers, 136 Mich App 284, 297; 356 NW2d 618 (1984).

    Here, the prosecution presented the testimony of Officer Shawn Werner, an expert on drug trafficking, that defendant's crack cocaine was not for personal use because it was too great a quantity and it was packaged for sale. Intent to deliver may be inferred from the quantity of the controlled substance and the way in which it is packaged. Wolfe, supra at 524; Fetterley, supra at 518. Under the standard of review for a sufficiency of the evidence claim, we must resolve this issue in favor of the prosecution. People v Terry, 224 Mich App 447, 452; 569 NW2d 641 (1997). Further, we note that possession of six crack cocaine rocks can be a large enough quantity to infer an intent to deliver. People v Ray, 191 Mich App 706, 708-709; 479 NW2d 1 (1991).

    Officer Gregory Bumgardner also testified that the cocaine was tied together with a special knot common in the drug trade. This testimony further supports Werner's theory that the crack cocaine was packaged for sale. Wolfe, supra at 524-525. Additionally, Werner testified that no drug paraphernalia, such as a crack pipe, was found in the car. This, too, supports the prosecution's case that the drugs were not for personal use. Id. at 525. Werner also testified that defendant carried a pager, a device common to the drug trade. Id.

    Circumstantial evidence and the reasonable inferences that arise from the evidence can constitute satisfactory proof of the elements of the crime. People v Carines, 460 Mich 750, 757; 597 NW2d 130 (1999). Because all conflicts in the evidence must be resolved in favor of the prosecution, Terry, supra at 452, we conclude that sufficient evidence was presented to convict defendant of possession with intent to deliver cocaine.

    Defendant next argues that there was insufficient evidence to convict him of carrying a concealed weapon. Taken in the light most favorable to the prosecution, Wolfe, supra at 515, the evidence proved that defendant did possess the gun retrieved from near his foot. Werner and Bumgardner both testified that they saw defendant drop a black object after reaching into or around the waistband of his pants. Werner heard a "clink" noise from the falling object striking the ground which sounded like metal hitting pavement.

    This Court has held that the word "concealed" for purposes of MCL 750.227; MSA 28.424 does not mean total concealment. People v Johnnie W Jones, 12 Mich App 293, 295; 162 NW2d 847 (1968). A weapon is concealed when it is "not discernible by the ordinary observation of persons coming in contact with the person carrying it, causally observing him, as people do in the ordinary and usual associations of life." Id. at 296. Concealment is a question for the trier of fact and it depends on the particular circumstances specific to the case. Id. at 296-297. This Court has found sufficient evidence of concealment in cases where a weapon was at least partially covered by the defendant's clothing. See e.g., People v Clark, 21 Mich App 712, 715; 176 NW2d 427 (1970); People v Iacopelli, 30 Mich App 105; 186 NW2d 38 (1971).

    This Court also found that the evidence was sufficient to support a conviction for carrying a concealed weapon where the defendant put a revolver in his belt or waistband and a witness testified that he could not see the revolver. People v Jackson, 43 Mich App 569, 571; 204 NW2d 367 (1972). We have further found that sufficient evidence of concealment was brought forth where the defendant, on being pursued, threw something behind a garbage can, which turned out to be a gun. People v Reynolds, 38Mich App 159, 160-161; 195 NW2d 870 (1972). Jackson and Reynolds are directly analogous to the instant case. Accordingly, we hold that there was sufficient evidence that defendant's weapon was concealed where he pulled it from the waistband of his pants.



    Affirmed.
    James Reynolds

    NRA Certified Firearms Instructor - Pistol, Shotgun, Home Firearms Safety, Refuse To Be A Victim
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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    smn wrote:
    I'll be travelling from GA to Midlothian, VA in late July to visit some inlaws. I regularly open carry in GA and enjoy the freedom. However, as I understand it, VA has unrestricted open carry. I'm not too concerned about CC much, as I don't have a reciprocal non-resident license for VA yet.
    We need dates that you will be in the area, so we can see about arranging an OC dinner with you. Late July works well, as we usually try to meet up during the 3rd week of each month.

    As you have relatives hereabouts, I'm going to presume you have been here before. If you have a favorite place to eat, or a favorite food, let us know so we can plan around your preferences. (Note: there has been some contention regarding okra and its place as a food. You might want to check out http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum54/11546.htmlfor the details.)

    stay safe.

    skidmark

    PS - don't mind proshooter - he's really a nice guy, bless his heart. Most folks, including cops that care, figure if they can see the grips it's a gun and unless you are wearing a ski mask you are probably OK.
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    ProShooter wrote:
    roscoe13 wrote:
    Despite ProShooters doom and gloom about using an IWB holster, I don't believe there's ANY problem in VA wearing a typical IWB holster that has at least the entire grip above the waistband. Just make sure it stays outside your shirt...
    From a former "leo" point of view, I consider a holster that covers 60 or 70% of a gun to be "observable but is of such deceptive appearance as to disguise the weapon's true nature."

    When you add the possibility of a loosely tucked shirt partially covering the remaining 30-40% when seated, a recomendation to use a dedicated OC is simply a word to the wise.

    I fail to see how that equates to "doom and gloom"

    Well, it would not be hard to defeat that in court, seeing that no where in the law does it list any percentages or numbers regarding concealed carry. It is purely speculative. Also, Michigan case law does not apply in Virginia, as I'm sure you already know


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    Campaign Veteran deepdiver's Avatar
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    ProShooter wrote:
    deepdiver wrote:
    ProShooter wrote:
    roscoe13 wrote:
    Despite ProShooters doom and gloom about using an IWB holster, I don't believe there's ANY problem in VA wearing a typical IWB holster that has at least the entire grip above the waistband. Just make sure it stays outside your shirt...
    From a former "leo" point of view, I consider a holster that covers 60 or 70% of a gun to be "observable but is of such deceptive appearance as to disguise the weapon's true nature."

    When you add the possibility of a loosely tucked shirt partially covering the remaining 30-40% when seated, a recomendation to use a dedicated OC is simply a word to the wise.

    I fail to see how that equates to "doom and gloom"
    I'm scratching my head here. How does that work? "Oh look, that guy has a gun. Right there, with about 30-40% of it visible above his waistband. Better talk to him for CCing." If you can see 30-40% of it and easily recognize it as a gun then how is it deceptive or concealed? I'm not being a smart ass. I really cannot understand that thought process. That's like seeing a calvary holster with the butt of the revolver clearly sticking out and then saying, "Well, it might be a cell phone since it is so deceptive in appearance but I think it might be a gun and am going to go talk to him."

    :?
    There's a difference between "easily recognize" and "observable" as the Code calls it. Keep in mind also, that guns have different grips which are sometimes copied by other products. I have seen knives use the same grips as some small .22 Deringer type pistols. Inside the waistline, they'd look the same.

    Like I said, it was strictly my opinion. Do what makes you comfortable.
    Fair enough. I understand what you are saying now and appreciate your perspective.
    Bob Owens @ Bearing Arms (paraphrased): "These people aren't against violence; they're very much in favor of violence. They're against armed resistance."

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    skidmark wrote:
    smn wrote:
    I'll be travelling from GA to Midlothian, VA in late July to visit some inlaws. I regularly open carry in GA and enjoy the freedom. However, as I understand it, VA has unrestricted open carry. I'm not too concerned about CC much, as I don't have a reciprocal non-resident license for VA yet.
    We need dates that you will be in the area, so we can see about arranging an OC dinner with you. Late July works well, as we usually try to meet up during the 3rd week of each month.

    As you have relatives hereabouts, I'm going to presume you have been here before. If you have a favorite place to eat, or a favorite food, let us know so we can plan around your preferences. (Note: there has been some contention regarding okra and its place as a food. You might want to check out http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum54/11546.htmlfor the details.)

    stay safe.

    skidmark

    PS - don't mind proshooter - he's really a nice guy, bless his heart. Most folks, including cops that care, figure if they can see the grips it's a gun and unless you are wearing a ski mask you are probably OK.
    My calendar puts me in Midlothian the night of July 21. I'll be there until Saturday or Sunday visiting my wife's cousin and her family. In all truthfullness I've not been to VA in about 10-11 years, and even then I didn't put much thought into owning a gun.

    An OC dinner would be fantastic and I'll have to see how the schedule turns out. I'll be sure to bring GeorgiaCarry.org cards. I prefer mom and pop restaurants because I'm burned out on franchise food. Wherever we eat okra is not a necessity. I've survived some very tasty (and tasteless) preparations and there are other and healthier vegetable alternatives. If it's homemade then I'm in.

    - smn



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    smn wrote:
    My calendar puts me in Midlothian the night of July 21. I'll be there until Saturday or Sunday visiting my wife's cousin and her family. In all truthfullness I've not been to VA in about 10-11 years, and even then I didn't put much thought into owning a gun.

    An OC dinner would be fantastic and I'll have to see how the schedule turns out. I'll be sure to bring GeorgiaCarry.org cards. I prefer mom and pop restaurants because I'm burned out on franchise food. Wherever we eat okra is not a necessity. I've survived some very tasty (and tasteless) preparations and there are other and healthier vegetable alternatives. If it's homemade then I'm in.

    - smn
    Our OC dinners are normally on weekdays but we'd be happy to have a "mini-edition" to suit your schedule. It's always good to meet people of similar interests and break bread. Keep in touch and we will make arrangements to suit your time table.

    The okra thing is an inside joke - one of our cohorts thinks that it is only fit for pigs.

    Yata hey


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    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    ProShooter wrote:

    From a former "leo" point of view, snip
    Former LEO? - that makes you a regular citizen doesn't it. In the game of them and us, that makes you one of us I would say. Some of my best friends are former LEOs.

    BTW - I carry a Smith model 60 with a Bianci HipGrip Mexican style when I'm working and have had several positive conversations with LEOs regarding it. Only once have I been asked "Do you have a permit for that?" To which I responded, "Why you see it and know what it is right?"

    I actually, in violation of the DO Not Ask rule, ran my own mini survey, asking over a dozen LEOs from most local juristictions of their opinion. Results: 11 to 1 that I was not concealing. The one desenting vote said ithat some people might have a problem with it. "How could they unless they saw it and knew what it was," asked I. He just laughed and walked away.

    Yata hey


    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Okay, I'll throw in on this one too. It seems that VA doesn't have any case law yet to tell us which way the wind blows on IWB carry in the state. Basically, that means that you get to decide if you think it's CC or OC.

    The informal survey above cannot determine if it's CC or not. You are prosecuted by DAs in a court run by a Judge for a jury to decide your fate, not a nubmer of local LEOs. I have no problem with the survey, it was just directed at the wrong people. What the survey DOES indicate, and several members confirm this experience, is that it is UNLIKELY that you would be arrested in the area of the survey, and other areas where some of the members OC with IWB holsters. You COULD be arrested by any given LEO and sent to face trial to let the court decide. That's why it is still a gray area here. Non-federal holdings from other states don't apply, and would not likely be considered. It may be that they couldn't be considered, as they set no precedent in VA. I don't know as I'm not a lawyer.

    Generally, it's best in these cases to read the statute as narrowly as possible and use any available exemplars of permissable behaviors as your guide. Since I carry in the same manner as uniformed LEOs, who are clearly not CCing, I feel that is the minimum standard by which I am safe from prosecution. Until there's an arrest and trial on point, you could always become the test case, and I for one don't want you to waste your time here on an involuntary tour of our penal system.

    Just my opinion, for what it's worth.

    Caltain

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    caltain wrote:
    Okay, I'll throw in on this one too. It seems that VA doesn't have any case law yet to tell us which way the wind blows on IWB carry in the state. Basically, that means that you get to decide if you think it's CC or OC.

    The informal survey above cannot determine if it's CC or not. You are prosecuted by DAs in a court run by a Judge for a jury to decide your fate, not a nubmer of local LEOs. I have no problem with the survey, it was just directed at the wrong people. What the survey DOES indicate, and several members confirm this experience, is that it is UNLIKELY that you would be arrested in the area of the survey, and other areas where some of the members OC with IWB holsters. You COULD be arrested by any given LEO and sent to face trial to let the court decide. That's why it is still a gray area here. Non-federal holdings from other states don't apply, and would not likely be considered. It may be that they couldn't be considered, as they set no precedent in VA. I don't know as I'm not a lawyer.

    Generally, it's best in these cases to read the statute as narrowly as possible and use any available exemplars of permissable behaviors as your guide. Since I carry in the same manner as uniformed LEOs, who are clearly not CCing, I feel that is the minimum standard by which I am safe from prosecution. Until there's an arrest and trial on point, you could always become the test case, and I for one don't want you to waste your time here on an involuntary tour of our penal system.

    Just my opinion, for what it's worth.

    Caltain
    Do not disagree with you on this. In my personal case, the OC question of is it visible or not, is backed up with a CHP - so my risk is non-existant. That said, I do not OC that way in a place that has ABC on. I do not tempt fate.

    Yata hey
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  20. #20
    Regular Member ProShooter's Avatar
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    Grapeshot wrote:
    ProShooter wrote:

    From a former "leo" point of view, snip
    Former LEO? - that makes you a regular citizen doesn't it. In the game of them and us, that makes you one of us I would say. Some of my best friends are former LEOs.


    A regular citizen now, yes, but one with experience on both sides of the fence. That allows me to offer a response based on a law enforcement perspective and conversely, the opinion of the average joe.
    James Reynolds

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    Campaign Veteran deepdiver's Avatar
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    Well, if you have a CCW, the only place at risk it would seem is in an ABC restaurant or club. Elsewhere, it wouldn't matter as both CC and OC would be legal for you. So in an ABC location, an officer walks in, arrests you for CC and then I guess that is a simple matter of going to court and having the hearing -
    Judge: "You arrested this man for CC in an ABC establishment?"
    Officer: "Yes ma'am"
    Judge" "How did you know he was CCing?"
    Officer: "I saw the grip of the pistol sticking up out of his holster above his waistband and upon seeing he had a CC firearm I approached him and arrested him."
    Judge: "You saw the weapon in plain sight, recognized it as a weaopn and so arrested him for concealing the weapon."
    Officer: "Yes, ma'am"
    Judge: "I passed English and Logic my freshman year in college -- DISMISSED"
    Bob Owens @ Bearing Arms (paraphrased): "These people aren't against violence; they're very much in favor of violence. They're against armed resistance."

  22. #22
    Regular Member ProShooter's Avatar
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    deepdiver wrote:
    Well, if you have a CCW, the only place at risk it would seem is in an ABC restaurant or club. Elsewhere, it wouldn't matter as both CC and OC would be legal for you. So in an ABC location, an officer walks in, arrests you for CC and then I guess that is a simple matter of going to court and having the hearing -
    Judge: "You arrested this man for CC in an ABC establishment?"
    Officer: "Yes ma'am"
    Judge" "How did you know he was CCing?"
    Officer: "I saw the grip of the pistol sticking up out of his holster above his waistband and upon seeing he had a CC firearm I approached him and arrested him."
    Judge: "You saw the weapon in plain sight, recognized it as a weaopn and so arrested him for concealing the weapon."
    Officer: "Yes, ma'am"
    Judge: "I passed English and Logic my freshman year in college -- DISMISSED"
    While entertaining, I think that is an oversimplification of the statute. If it was obscured, and required investigation by the officer to identify it as a gun, it would fit the statute....like I said, just my opinion.
    James Reynolds

    NRA Certified Firearms Instructor - Pistol, Shotgun, Home Firearms Safety, Refuse To Be A Victim
    Concealed Firearms Instructor for Virginia, Florida & Utah permits.
    NRA Certified Chief Range Safety Officer
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    Instructor Bio - http://proactiveshooters.com/about-us/

  23. #23
    Campaign Veteran deepdiver's Avatar
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    ProShooter wrote:
    deepdiver wrote:
    Well, if you have a CCW, the only place at risk it would seem is in an ABC restaurant or club. Elsewhere, it wouldn't matter as both CC and OC would be legal for you. So in an ABC location, an officer walks in, arrests you for CC and then I guess that is a simple matter of going to court and having the hearing -
    Judge: "You arrested this man for CC in an ABC establishment?"
    Officer: "Yes ma'am"
    Judge" "How did you know he was CCing?"
    Officer: "I saw the grip of the pistol sticking up out of his holster above his waistband and upon seeing he had a CC firearm I approached him and arrested him."
    Judge: "You saw the weapon in plain sight, recognized it as a weaopn and so arrested him for concealing the weapon."
    Officer: "Yes, ma'am"
    Judge: "I passed English and Logic my freshman year in college -- DISMISSED"
    While entertaining, I think that is an oversimplification of the statute. If it was obscured, and required investigation by the officer to identify it as a gun, it would fit the statute....like I said, just my opinion.
    Laff - I know it was - just having a little fun and was not directing it at you.

    I guess my point was that I think it would be pretty obvious to an officer whether or not someone was attempting to conceal or attempting to follow the law. It seems to me it will be LEO discretion whether to just say something to the citizen about being more careful or to follow the letter of the law to it's natural conclusion. It is incumbent on us to do our best to be in full compliance with the law like it or not.
    Bob Owens @ Bearing Arms (paraphrased): "These people aren't against violence; they're very much in favor of violence. They're against armed resistance."

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    deepdiver wrote:

    I guess my point was that I think it would be pretty obvious to an officer whether or not someone was attempting to conceal or attempting to follow the law. It seems to me it will be LEO discretion whether to just say something to the citizen about being more careful or to follow the letter of the law to it's natural conclusion. It is incumbent on us to do our best to be in full compliance with the law like it or not.

    Reply:

    Attempting to follow the law is a good point, and a valid one. That said, it's probably why we haven't seen any case law on the topic. The LEOs are giving the benefit of the doubt. They don't have to do that, and at some point, some narrow minded LEO is going to testthis for us.

    I behave the same way in all my daily life. I drive at 55 indicated, if that's the speed limit, even though I know that radar doesn't show me at 55 until I indicate 58+. I try to follow the spirit of the law, as well as the text. The spirit of this law is that it be plainly obvious to everyone that you are carrying a firearm, so that's how I make it...your mileage may vary.

    Cal

  25. #25
    Regular Member ProShooter's Avatar
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    caltain wrote:
    deepdiver wrote:

    I guess my point was that I think it would be pretty obvious to an officer whether or not someone was attempting to conceal or attempting to follow the law. It seems to me it will be LEO discretion whether to just say something to the citizen about being more careful or to follow the letter of the law to it's natural conclusion. It is incumbent on us to do our best to be in full compliance with the law like it or not.

    Reply:

    Attempting to follow the law is a good point, and a valid one. That said, it's probably why we haven't seen any case law on the topic. The LEOs are giving the benefit of the doubt. They don't have to do that, and at some point, some narrow minded LEO is going to testthis for us.

    I behave the same way in all my daily life. I drive at 55 indicated, if that's the speed limit, even though I know that radar doesn't show me at 55 until I indicate 58+. I try to follow the spirit of the law, as well as the text. The spirit of this law is that it be plainly obvious to everyone that you are carrying a firearm, so that's how I make it...your mileage may vary.

    Cal
    deepdiver and caltain - I agree. Points well said by both of you.
    James Reynolds

    NRA Certified Firearms Instructor - Pistol, Shotgun, Home Firearms Safety, Refuse To Be A Victim
    Concealed Firearms Instructor for Virginia, Florida & Utah permits.
    NRA Certified Chief Range Safety Officer
    Sabre Red Pepper Spray Instructor
    Glock Certified Armorer
    Instructor Bio - http://proactiveshooters.com/about-us/

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