Open carry In ventura County

CA_Libertarian · Jun 24, 2008

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I don't care how adamantly you claim the veracity of your claims... I could just as easily and just as adamantly claim that you can use hidden cameras to record people. I could just as easily say I know a guy who did this and not only was he not prosecuted for such, it was admitted as evidence.

If you want to be taken seriously, you must back up your claims with facts. Facts can be checked. Most of us here aren't sheeple that believe everything they hear. We like to research and verify. (If we didn't we would still think open carry is illegal, as we have all been told by various 'authorities.')

alwaysalert · Jun 24, 2008

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New guy here. This is my first time out, so I hope I'm not dorking anything up?. In any event, I too live in Camarillo (small world) and have lived here since 1963 when it was a nice ag community before the current and somehow always elected city council trashed it. The police in this town as you know are rented from the county (by contract) and have always maintained a "police should only be armed" attitude. A majority of our police are from the area and the worst offense seen by our fearless men in uniform is skateboarders racing through Albertson's parking lot. Not a lot of L.A. type action here abouts and the cops get their undies in a bunch in the rare domestic dispute call (which usually requires 4 patrol cars and 2 fire trucks). I would refer to the advice of an attorney and as a kicker, notify the police as to your intent and get their reaction. i.e., To: commanding officer in charge Camarillo Police Dept. C/O Ventura Co. SD, my name is __________and I am a resident of Camarillo and I am ___ years old. I legally own a ______pistol/hand gun registered to me in which I have qualified for under state law. It is my intent to carry my weapon unconcealed and unloaded at times and places under my own discretion with the exception to places where state law does not permit firearms. Should you have any objection or legal issues with my intent as mentioned, please feel free to contact me at anytime. Otherwise I will conclude that you do not object or have any legal grounds in which to deny me my rights to carry my weapon and I look forward in receiving no harassment from the police for exercising my constitutional rights. Thank You,________.

Just a thought??

LostCoast · Jun 25, 2008

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alwaysalert wrote:

New guy here. This is my first time out, so I hope I'm not dorking anything up?. In any event, I too live in Camarillo (small world) and have lived here since 1963 when it was a nice ag community before the current and somehow always elected city council trashed it. The police in this town as you know are rented from the county (by contract) and have always maintained a "police should only be armed" attitude. A majority of our police are from the area and the worst offense seen by our fearless men in uniform is skateboarders racing through Albertson's parking lot. Not a lot of L.A. type action here abouts and the cops get their undies in a bunch in the rare domestic dispute call (which usually requires 4 patrol cars and 2 fire trucks). I would refer to the advice of an attorney and as a kicker, notify the police as to your intent and get their reaction. i.e., To: commanding officer in charge Camarillo Police Dept. C/O Ventura Co. SD, my name is __________and I am a resident of Camarillo and I am ___ years old. I legally own a ______pistol/hand gun registered to me in which I have qualified for under state law. It is my intent to carry my weapon unconcealed and unloaded at times and places under my own discretion with the exception to places where state law does not permit firearms. Should you have any objection or legal issues with my intent as mentioned, please feel free to contact me at anytime. Otherwise I will conclude that you do not object or have any legal grounds in which to deny me my rights to carry my weapon and I look forward in receiving no harassment from the police for exercising my constitutional rights. Thank You,________.

Just a thought??

Very good point to make them aware but you will still get harassed until all police get to know you. Don't think they will stop the harassment because of a notice, they may be told to continue until stopped by the courts.

I also live in Camarillo and would like to video tape OC encounters and get them on the Cable Access channel, local newsif possible, or into court for rights violations, harassment, defamation of characterand such.

We need a group to go out in numbers to keep the witnesses in larger numbers so we don't get railroaded with false charges.

I am ready to have meetings once a month somewhere and get this started, you with me? anybody?

alwaysalert · Jun 25, 2008

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Keep me informed! I have no problem with using a camera and I might even sport my sidearm for G-pees. One question (legal in nature), the city of Camarillo would draft an ordinance against OC in a heartbeat at the request of the police just to do you in. Is the City allowed to do this? Or would that ordinance be in violation of the 2E?

Alwaysalert.

ConditionThree · Jun 25, 2008

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alwaysalert wrote:

Keep me informed! I have no problem with using a camera and I might even sport my sidearm for G-pees. One question (legal in nature), the city of Camarillo would draft an ordinance against OC in a heartbeat at the request of the police just to do you in. Is the City allowed to do this? Or would that ordinance be in violation of the 2E?

Alwaysalert.

You mean the 2A. And I have a theory on this topic of local ordinances against open carry.

I dont believe they could make open carry illegal. Here's why.

Our State Constitution has what is known as pre-emption.

ARTICLE 3 STATE OF CALIFORNIA

SEC. 1. The State of California is an inseparable part of the
United States of America, and the United States Constitution is the
supreme law of the land.

The second amendment is still a part of the U.S. Constitution and it could be argued to be a 'general law'.

ARTICLE 4 LEGISLATIVE

SEC. 16. (a) All laws of a general nature have uniform operation.
(b) A local or special statute is invalid in any case if a general
statute can be made applicable.

General laws all have to operate the same, if a general statute can be made applicable the local statute is invalid. The State law, pre-empts the local one by having supremacy.

ARTICLE 11 LOCAL GOVERNMENT

SEC. 7. A county or city may make and enforce within its limits all
local, police, sanitary, and other ordinances and regulations not in
conflict with general laws.

A city or county cannot make or enforce an ordinance that is in conflict with general laws.And to this I will add that we not only have the second amendment as a general law, but also have the California State penal code telling us that various forms of carry, possession and transportation of a firearm are already legal.

Including but not limited to-

12025 (f), 12025.5 (a), 12026 (a)&(b), 12026.1, 12026.2, 12027, 12031 (exceptions listed therein) as well as 12050 (a)(1)(A)(ii).

So then, the only way open carry could be made illegal is in the State legislature- not by county and city ordinances. With a favorable ruling from SCOTUS, even the State legislature would be hard pressed to stifle peacable exposed carry.

LostCoast · Jun 26, 2008

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CA_Libertarian wrote:

I don't care how adamantly you claim the veracity of your claims... I could just as easily and just as adamantly claim that you can use hidden cameras to record people. I could just as easily say I know a guy who did this and not only was he not prosecuted for such, it was admitted as evidence.

If you want to be taken seriously, you must back up your claims with facts. Facts can be checked. Most of us here aren't sheeple that believe everything they hear. We like to research and verify. (If we didn't we would still think open carry is illegal, as we have all been told by various 'authorities.')

Admin,

If you are told not to record from an officer and you do not stop and get arrested wouldn't it be wise to share this with others even though no case history is available?

100% compliance with a LEOis the law and you may and will be arrested.

CA_Libertarian · Jun 26, 2008

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LostCoast wrote:

Admin,

If you are told not to record from an officer and you do not stop and get arrested wouldn't it be wise to share this with others even though no case history is available?

100% compliance with a LEOis the law and you may and will be arrested.

Do you have a citation that says you have to be 100% compliant with a LEO? I must have missed that one.

Even so, I agree you may face persecution (and prosecution) if you fail to goose step just right. That doesn't mean we should.

LostCoast · Jun 26, 2008

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do you really need a citation to know that if you don't comply you will be arrested?

I have seen ton's of activist video's on youtube, google vid's and other places and the Leo's always tell the vid guy if you dont stop you will be arrested and the cams goes down or off every time. Do you have ainstance where someone didn't comply and skated and found the Leo's were just messing around with them? I have yet to find one out of many, many,vid's so far.

CA_Libertarian · Jun 26, 2008

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LostCoast wrote:

do you really need a citation to know that if you don't comply you will be arrested?

That's not what I asked for. What I'm asking you to provide is proof of your claim that "100% compliance with a LEOis the law."

ETA: As I said before, I agree that you may be persecuted if you exercise your rights. If we let persecution dissuade us then the right is lost already.

LostCoast · Jun 26, 2008

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Its a blanket law coveredwhen impedeing an officer's dutyand or their direct orders.

CA_Libertarian · Jun 26, 2008

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LostCoast wrote:

Its a blanket law coveredwhen impedeing an officer's dutyand or their direct orders.

OK, I'm not going to keep this up. You obviously have no interest in backing up your claims with citation to statute or case law. So, there's no way you will convice me of your claims.

I'm done here.

Mike · Jun 26, 2008

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LostCoast wrote:

do you really need a citation to know that if you don't comply you will be arrested?

I have seen ton's of activist video's on youtube, google vid's and other places and the Leo's always tell the vid guy if you dont stop you will be arrested and the cams goes down or off every time. Do you have ainstance where someone didn't comply and skated and found the Leo's were just messing around with them? I have yet to find one out of many, many,vid's so far.

You miss the point - the public has a right to film the police - and damages will be paid if the police interfere. Robinson v. Fetterman, 378 F.Supp.2d 534 (E.D.Pa. 2005) (punitive damages awarded to man on First Amendment grounds due to police interference with his righ to videotape them because judge says "We are not dealing with a 'close case'.")

Decoligny · Jun 26, 2008

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LostCoast wrote:

Its a blanket law coveredwhen impedeing an officer's dutyand or their direct orders.

What kind of blanket, wool? As in without a citation we will all assume you are trying to pull the wool overour eyes.

CA_Libertarian · Jun 26, 2008

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Decoligny wrote:

What kind of blanket, wool? As in without a citation we will all assume you are trying to pull the wool overour eyes.

Brilliant. You've earned a banana.

:celebrate

bigtoe416 · Jun 26, 2008

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Compliance with a police officer is not mandatory unless the order given is lawful. For example, two people are standing on a sidewalk protesting and a police officer comes up to them and orders them to disperse. They do not have to disperse because the order is not based on any law, and is therefore not a lawful order.

If those same two people were fighting each other and the police officer came up to them and ordered them to disperse, the order would be lawful, but if they stopped fighting they would not have to disperse because they are no longer violating the law.

Brown v. Louisiana (http://law.jrank.org/pages/12635/Brown-v-Louisiana.html) affirms this as does Edwards v. South Carolina (http://www.phschool.com/atschool/supreme_court_cases/edwards.html).

See this for a more in depth look at the question: http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1008040

CA_Libertarian · Jun 26, 2008

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bigtoe416 wrote:

Compliance with a police officer is not mandatory unless the order given is lawful. For example, two people are standing on a sidewalk protesting and a police officer comes up to them and orders them to disperse. They do not have to disperse because the order is not based on any law, and is therefore not a lawful order.

If those same two people were fighting each other and the police officer came up to them and ordered them to disperse, the order would be lawful, but if they stopped fighting they would not have to disperse because they are no longer violating the law.

Brown v. Louisiana (http://law.jrank.org/pages/12635/Brown-v-Louisiana.html) affirms this as does Edwards v. South Carolina (http://www.phschool.com/atschool/supreme_court_cases/edwards.html).

See this for a more in depth look at the question: http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1008040

Damn you and your citations and references... you scared off the troll!

LostCoast · Jun 27, 2008

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IF you think I'm a troll you are incorrect...

I appreciate your concise way of thinking only backing everything with case law it really adds to the upgrade of any situation to get to the legal point and learn how to stand your ground and fight for freedom. I am not a walking case history machine and will never be one so bare with me a bit.

I am here to learn and express what I know to further our combined effort to upgrade.

I know its cute for you all to look like your all knowing and then cut up upon others for their lack of legal expertise. If you could do it with a little compassion I would appreciate it, thanks.

I am trying to start a local OC chapter in Ventura County and I'm a bit wet under the ears but my intention is to move forward with this and to ask for anyone's help in making this a place where we don't get harassed for exercising our right to carry openly.

If you know of a local chapter for the Libertarian Party I would like that info please.

Camarillo Ca. or surrounding area.

LostCoast · Jun 27, 2008

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Mike wrote:

LostCoast wrote:

do you really need a citation to know that if you don't comply you will be arrested?

I have seen ton's of activist video's on youtube, google vid's and other places and the Leo's always tell the vid guy if you dont stop you will be arrested and the cams goes down or off every time. Do you have ainstance where someone didn't comply and skated and found the Leo's were just messing around with them? I have yet to find one out of many, many,vid's so far.

Click to expand...

You miss the point - the public has a right to film the police - and damages will be paid if the police interfere. Robinson v. Fetterman, 378 F.Supp.2d 534 (E.D.Pa. 2005) (punitive damages awarded to man on First Amendment grounds due to police interference with his righ to videotape them because judge says "We are not dealing with a 'close case'.")

was this guy the Perp or a bystander?

LostCoast · Jun 27, 2008

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Decoligny wrote:

LostCoast wrote:

Its a blanket law coveredwhen impedeing an officer's dutyand or their direct orders.

Click to expand...

What kind of blanket, wool? As in without a citation we will all assume you are trying to pull the wool overour eyes.

How many times have you been arrested? and for disobeying an officer? did you have to post bail? how much was the lawyer? did they trash your camera or recording?

I'm sure the inmates have a blanket waiting for your headand another banana prize you won't be happy to get LMAO

CA_Libertarian · Jun 27, 2008

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LostCoast wrote:

IF you think I'm a troll you are incorrect...

I appreciate your concise way of thinking only backing everything with case law it really adds to the upgrade of any situation to get to the legal point and learn how to stand your ground and fight for freedom. I am not a walking case history machine and will never be one so bare with me a bit.

I am here to learn and express what I know to further our combined effort to upgrade.

I know its cute for you all to look like your all knowing and then cut up upon others for their lack of legal expertise. If you could do it with a little compassion I would appreciate it, thanks.

I am trying to start a local OC chapter in Ventura County and I'm a bit wet under the ears but my intention is to move forward with this and to ask for anyone's help in making this a place where we don't get harassed for exercising our right to carry openly.

If you know of a local chapter for the Libertarian Party I would like that info please.

Camarillo Ca. or surrounding area.

Well, I applaud your desire to OC and get others involved. The most important thing you can do in the fight for freedom is to think for yourself. Stop believing the urban myths and BS the LE community spreads.

I too am terrible at memorizing statutes and case law. That's why I frequently search through it. The only way to get good at finding citations is to learn how to do research. Here's the two most common sites I use:

http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/calaw.html (check the Penal Code box and then search at the bottom)
http://findlaw.com/ (site navigation takes some getting used to, but their free "for legal professionals" section has a decent case search tool)

Realize that most the information we have accumulated here has come from literally hundreds of hours of research donated by the likes of ConditionThree, Cato, myself, et al. It's not glamorous or fun, but if you want to make claims about the law you gotta be ready to back it up with proof. That's how it works and keeps everybody honest.

And no, I do not know of a local Libertarian party. I know the screen name is a bit deceiving, but I am a "small L" libertarian - not a member of the "big L" libertarian party. I'm still researching the party platform/history before I decide to join/donate. I don't know if I'm a Libertarian, but I know that I am a libertarian.

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