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Thread: Interviewing Inmates

  1. #1
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    I remember reading something about "condition white" vs "condition yellow" and hearing about a study conducted where incarcerated violent offenders were shown pictures of people and asked if they would attack that person or not. Something like 95% of the convicts chose the same batch of targets (all "condition white" people).

    I was wondering how we could get a similar study asking violent offenders if the sight of an openly armed citizen would deter them from comitting a crime. My money would be on Deterrence winning the day.

    Anyone know a great journalist for a major publication or maybe an academic type person who could do something like this?


    I ask because I am really sick of the "Tactical Advantage" argument of the anti-OCers... The fact is that there is no data on the matter and there very well should be!!!


    EDIT -- Fixed the typo

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    I gather you meant "condition white." Funny typo, though.

    -ljp

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    ScottyT wrote:
    I remember reading something about "condition shite" vs "condition yellow" and hearing about a study conducted where incarcerated violent offenders were shown pictures of people and asked if they would attack that person or not. Something like 95% of the convicts chose the same batch of targets (all condition white people).

    I was wondering how we could get a similar study asking violent offenders if the sight of an openly armed citizen would deter them from comitting a crime. My money would be on Deterrence winning the day.

    Anyone know a great journalist for a major publication or maybe an academic type person who could do something like this?


    I ask because I am really sick of the "Tactical Advantage" argument of the anti-OCers... The fact is that there is no data on the matter and there very well should be!!!
    This would be very interesting, and WE would think it to be useful, but I'm afraid it wouldn't change the argument any.

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    Condition shyte!! That is my favorite word y0.

    You mispelled shyte though.

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    If I had the time and independent financial status to pursue such research I would. It is research like that, with real people about a real world question that I most miss since leaving the psychology field.

    EDIT: Was scrolling through the thread and a really stupid typo jumped out at me.
    Bob Owens @ Bearing Arms (paraphrased): "These people aren't against violence; they're very much in favor of violence. They're against armed resistance."

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    Didn't John Lott used to be anti? Didn't he just come out with a statementagainst OC? Someone with the clout ought to call him on it. Maybe we'll get a book titled"Open Carry, Less Crime" out of him.

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    I have spent many years as a volunteer minister in the the state of Michigan dept of corrections and every inmate told me they all avoided the obviously armed citizen . like or not open carry works. :celebrate

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    ScottyT wrote:
    SNIP I was wondering how we could get a similar study asking violent offenders if the sight of an openly armed citizen would deter them from comitting a crime. My money would be on Deterrence winning the day.

    Anyone know a great journalist for a major publication or maybe an academic type person who could do something like this?
    Risking bad press, slanted results (by reporter or felon), etc.is not worth the benefit of getting a reply for the anti-OC crowd's arguments.

    Separately, its asking for trouble to legitimize the premise that the right to OC would be affected by its deterrence value, or any other factor at all. Its a RIGHT. It is not subject to justification, or explanation.

    Don't discuss it the form of arguing over their points. First and foremost get a concession that it is your right. A solid concession, not lip service. After that, just gently attack in the form of polite questions.

    CC-only'er: "Yes, yes, yes. Its your right, BUT..."

    OCer: "If its a right, why are you arguing against it?"

    OC'er: "If its a right, why does it matter whether its better to CC?"

    OC'er: "Oh, so you only support rights thatyou like?"

    OCer: "Oh, OK. I don't like CC. Should I start campaigning against it in the legislature? How much effort do you really think it would take for a gun supporter to get shall-issue CC cancelled? I'd have so much credibility with the anti-gunners, it would make your head swim."


    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    I finally registered after being a long-time lurkerjust so I could respond to this post... :celebrate

    Here are a few of my favorite open-carry-deterrence statistics - yes, they DO exist - and their sources:

    60% of convicted felons admitted that they avoided committing crimes when they knew the victim was armed. 40% of convicted felons admitted that they avoided committing crimes when they thought the victim might be armed.
    James Wright and Peter Rossi, “Armed and Considered Dangerous: A Survey of Felons and Their Firearms”, New York: Aldine, 1986

    74% of felons agreed that "one reason burglars avoid houses when people are at home is that they fear being shot during the crime." 57% of felons polled agreed, "criminals are more worried about meeting an armed victim than they are about running into the police."
    U.S. Bureau of Justice Statistics Federal Firearms Offenders study, 1997. Department of Justice, National Institute of Justice, "The Armed Criminal in America: A Survey of Incarcerated Felons," Research Report, July 1985

    Check out the Gun Facts guide available at http://www.gunfacts.info, especially the section on deterrence at pages 10-11 (that's where I found these).

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    Oh, the above post reminded me of something. I am almost certain that I was not robbed a couple months ago because these two people thought I was armed. It was before I had a handgun. All I had on me was a knife, but my actions made them think twice IMO. I will never know for certain whether or not they intended to rob me, but I was convinced of it at the time and I still am to this day. Note that this is the only time that I can recall thinking I was about to be attacked and robbed, so it's not just that I'm always paranoid about it or something.

    I was going to a grocery store to get food, it was late at night though. I was driving my Miata though, and it has pretty much every suspension upgrade you can do to it, so it sits a few inches off the ground. It also has a double diagonal roll bar and white 15" wheels, so it stands out in general. This grocery store is in a complex that has short speed bumps that are incredibly tall. My car bottoms out on these speed bumps, so I don't go all the way into the complex as a result. Instead I park in the entrance to the complex, which happens to be on the left side of the grocery store. The complex is set up in a strange manner though, which I'll detail in a picture below. Basically I have to walk through this alley-like thing that has a roof to get to the front of the building the grocery store is in.

    Well, when I got out of my car, two young black males dressed in thuggish clothing were standing on the other side from me on a street that ran through this complex. They were standing in front of closed stores in a dimly lit area for no reason. I had noticed them before I got out and I noticed that they were looking over my way and talking. As soon as I got out, they briskly crossed the street headed right for that alley I was walking towards. They were moving at a quick pace and appeared to have some "intent" behind their movement, it did not appear to be random timing that they were headed to the same alley I was and wanted to get there at the same time. Someone had left a shopping cart at the entrance to the alley, so I grabbed it and started walking forward.

    As I started walking with the cart, they came up to the entrance of the alley and started to come around behind me. I was on the left side right near the wall, so at this point it was clearl that they wanted to do something to me. I knew at this point that there was something going on, because the alley was very wide and if they were walking somewhere quickly, they would have wanted to pass me, not walk directly behind me.

    So I turned my head a little more than 90 degrees to the right and simultaneously leaned forward with my left arm on the cart and put my hand in my right cargo pocket, gripped my Ka-Bar TDI and using my thumb, popped the sheath off with it still in my pocket. I was looking right at them and I noticed them both slow down and look at my hand in my pocket. They waited and kept following me, I think it was to try to see what was in my pocket, and I just kept walking forward looking back at them with my hand in my pocket. When I got to the end of the alley and was in view of the front of the store they stopped and stayed in the alley. I am convinced they were about to try to rob me because they saw my car and thought it was nice and that I'd have money, plus I was in a decent spot for them to rob someone.

    That further enforced my desire for a handgun and I got one not too long after that occurred.



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    dang, that's scarry. it's never a good thing when you're outnumbered. i wonder if you could have used that cart as a shield between you and them. once you saw them behind you, you could have started to pull the cart behind you instead of pushing it in front of you. if they made a move, you could have pushed the cart back into at least one of them...hopefully allowing you to make a run for it. hindsight is 20-20 though, huh?

    glad you came out of that unhurt.

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    TheCiscoKid wrote:
    dang, that's scarry. it's never a good thing when you're outnumbered. i wonder if you could have used that cart as a shield between you and them. once you saw them behind you, you could have started to pull the cart behind you instead of pushing it in front of you. if they made a move, you could have pushed the cart back into at least one of them...hopefully allowing you to make a run for it. hindsight is 20-20 though, huh?

    glad you came out of that unhurt.
    My thought was that I was going to swing that sucker around full force if needed, had the gap closed any further I would have. See, I never took my eyes off of them the whole time. I could see them start holding back when I reached in my pocket, eyeing my right hand. They came up really confident at first, right at me, I know they were going to attack me otherwise. I would have swung the cart, pulled my knife and moved for the front of the supermarket if possible. Otherwise I would have had to put it in their neck/face and hope for the best. That's one of the biggest reasons why I got a handgun!

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    What they could do is slip some pictures of people openly carrying into the pile, and see if any of the criminals say they would attempt to victimize them.

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    I am a corrections officer. A jailer. Inmates ARE scared of people withguns.

    I have about 50 work release inmates under my care when I work. Almost all have exhibited a morbid curiousity of what I carry out side of the jail. (I cannot be armed in the jail but, do not take myholster off). I reply "A Glock 21. All the time". Their reply? "Man! I wouldn't f*** with you!"

    In addition, I have asked some about whether or not they would mess with anybody with a gun. NO....They won't.

    When off duty, I never show my badge and I carry open almost everywhere.

    FYI....I've been carryingfor about 53 years. I was 13 and had a paper route when I carried my Dad's .38 special.

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    Another way might be to ask a number of folks that have used OC for 5yrs or more how many run-ins they've had with bad guys since day one?.

    I'll bet you'de be hard pressed to find 1 in a 1000.

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    Weak 9mm wrote:
    Oh, the above post reminded me of something. I am almost certain that I was not robbed a couple months ago because these two people thought I was armed. It was before I had a handgun. All I had on me was a knife, but my actions made them think twice IMO. I will never know for certain whether or not they intended to rob me, but I was convinced of it at the time and I still am to this day. Note that this is the only time that I can recall thinking I was about to be attacked and robbed, so it's not just that I'm always paranoid about it or something.

    I was going to a grocery store to get food, it was late at night though. I was driving my Miata though, and it has pretty much every suspension upgrade you can do to it, so it sits a few inches off the ground. It also has a double diagonal roll bar and white 15" wheels, so it stands out in general. This grocery store is in a complex that has short speed bumps that are incredibly tall. My car bottoms out on these speed bumps, so I don't go all the way into the complex as a result. Instead I park in the entrance to the complex, which happens to be on the left side of the grocery store. The complex is set up in a strange manner though, which I'll detail in a picture below. Basically I have to walk through this alley-like thing that has a roof to get to the front of the building the grocery store is in.

    Well, when I got out of my car, two young black males dressed in thuggish clothing were standing on the other side from me on a street that ran through this complex. They were standing in front of closed stores in a dimly lit area for no reason. I had noticed them before I got out and I noticed that they were looking over my way and talking. As soon as I got out, they briskly crossed the street headed right for that alley I was walking towards. They were moving at a quick pace and appeared to have some "intent" behind their movement, it did not appear to be random timing that they were headed to the same alley I was and wanted to get there at the same time. Someone had left a shopping cart at the entrance to the alley, so I grabbed it and started walking forward.

    As I started walking with the cart, they came up to the entrance of the alley and started to come around behind me. I was on the left side right near the wall, so at this point it was clearl that they wanted to do something to me. I knew at this point that there was something going on, because the alley was very wide and if they were walking somewhere quickly, they would have wanted to pass me, not walk directly behind me.

    So I turned my head a little more than 90 degrees to the right and simultaneously leaned forward with my left arm on the cart and put my hand in my right cargo pocket, gripped my Ka-Bar TDI and using my thumb, popped the sheath off with it still in my pocket. I was looking right at them and I noticed them both slow down and look at my hand in my pocket. They waited and kept following me, I think it was to try to see what was in my pocket, and I just kept walking forward looking back at them with my hand in my pocket. When I got to the end of the alley and was in view of the front of the store they stopped and stayed in the alley. I am convinced they were about to try to rob me because they saw my car and thought it was nice and that I'd have money, plus I was in a decent spot for them to rob someone.

    That further enforced my desire for a handgun and I got one not too long after that occurred.

    This reminds me of when I was stationed in San Diego. I lived on the edge of Balboa Park and needed to walk to the convenience store that was one block over one night to pick up something. As I was approaching the store I was accosted by a gangbanger who told me to give him my money. I reached into the cruise jacket I was wearing as if to draw from a shoulder holster and asked him if he really wanted to go through with it.

    He bought the bluff and I bought a .357 the next day.
    "All that is required for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing." - Edmund Burke


    "I like people who stand on the Constitution... unless they're using it to wipe their feet." - Jon E Hutcherson

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    Mokarov_9mm wrote:
    Another way might be to ask a number of folks that have used OC for 5yrs or more how many run-ins they've had with bad guys since day one?.

    I'll bet you'de be hard pressed to find 1 in a 1000.
    True, but how many people that DON'T OC haven't had any run-ins with bad guys in 5 years?

    I never OCd until recently. in my 18 years as an adult (I'm 36 now), I have NEVER needed a gun for protection. I've never been mugged, never been robbed, threatened, and never been afraid for my life. Neither has my wife or anyone else in her family in the last 30 years. That's why it's an uphill battle for me to OC anymore. None of them think it's necessary or worth the trouble it will cause.

    4 months agoI decided to carry and stop playing the odds.I can't OC as much as I started to because of the in-laws, but I do carry concealed every waking hour I'm not at work. Hopefully someday soon I'll get to OC again. I really enjoyed the activism and opportunity to show that good people carry guns.

    ...Orygunner...

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    Weak 9mm wrote:
    Condition shyte!! That is my favorite word y0.

    You mispelled shyte though.
    Wrong.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/@#$%e


    :P

    Edit: lol, apparently OCDO has auto filtering. :? Whatever happened to self-moderation? I thought it worked well, just as I think there can be a time and place for posting certain combinations of letters, like S-H-I-T-E. :X

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    Here is what you're looking for, video evidence, 2 minutes into the video. Inmates are interviewed by John Stossell, about what they are really concerned about, armed citizens.

    You're welcome!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RR9RN_iSKtg

  20. #20
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    TheMrMitch wrote:
    I am a corrections officer. A jailer. Inmates ARE scared of people withguns.

    I have about 50 work release inmates under my care when I work. Almost all have exhibited a morbid curiousity of what I carry out side of the jail. (I cannot be armed in the jail but, do not take myholster off). I reply "A Glock 21. All the time". Their reply? "Man! I wouldn't f*** with you!"

    In addition, I have asked some about whether or not they would mess with anybody with a gun. NO....They won't.

    When off duty, I never show my badge and I carry open almost everywhere.

    FYI....I've been carryingfor about 53 years. I was 13 and had a paper route when I carried my Dad's .38 special.
    And there you have it! Great reasons for me to start OCing, when I get something worth carrying openly, like: http://www.kimberamerica.com/pistols..._carry_II/171/




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    "..60% of convicted felons admitted that they avoided committing crimes when they knew the victim was armed..."


    That means 4 out of 10 criminals would NOT avoid it.

    Be careful out there...

    -- John D.

    (formerly of Colorado Springs, CO)

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    cloudcroft wrote:
    "..60% of convicted felons admitted that they avoided committing crimes when they knew the victim was armed..."


    That means 4 out of 10 criminals would NOT avoid it.

    Be careful out there...

    -- John D.
    No. It means that 4 out of 10 criminals did not admit that they would avoid it.
    BIG difference.

    Yata hey
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    That's not my interpretation, but I hope that at least the 4 out of 10 DO try though...you can't "take a bite out of crime" if they don't try, can you.



    -- John D.

    (formerly of Colorado Springs, CO)

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    A lot of criminals are on drugs, which will impare their minds, making them unafraid of weapons. I think I experienced that first hand when I saw a guy who was likely a crack head screaming at a gas station cashier.

    With concealed carry, you have more if a choice of when to deploy your gun. With open carry, you might have to deploy it immediately. But at least with open carry 60% of criminals are likely to avoid attempting to victimize you. I'll take the 40% and a need to act quickly over the 60% better odds of being attacked, no doubt about it.

    Answer every question about open carry in Michigan you ever had with one convenient and free book- http://libertyisforeveryone.com/open-carry-resources/

    The complete and utter truth can be challenged from every direction and it will always hold up. Accordingly there are few greater displays of illegitimacy than to attempt to impede free thought and communication.

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    We have to take into account that these interviews are with criminals, not known for being "HONEST". Could we not say that these numbers are "iffy" at best?

    We also have to consider the fact that, when not incarcerated, these BG's may be on drugs/alcohol or experiencing withdrawals from drugs, which will impair their judgement (which is already impaired since they choose criminal activity as a career).

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