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Thread: Feelings about open carry

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    First off, I would like to announce I am not a troll. I'm a Tennesse state certified Handgun Instructor and I live off of I-40 & Appling. I agree with what is trying to be done with the whole open carry thing, showing how us 'mere' civilians are allowed to carry firearms. I'm 24 years old and have a lot of college age friends who can't believe I carry a firearm everywhere I go. It's been a good chance for me to preach about our rights and that guns are not inherently evil.

    The problem I have is I believe carrying openly creates two problems for us who carry. The first is anyone who decides they are having a bad day are probably going to off you first, probably with a bullet in the back of the head, because your their biggest threat at the moment. I know, that sounds far fetch but it could happen. The second is more realistic, in it removes any sort of tactical advantage of anonymity. If you were Mr. Bad Guy and you decided you were having a bad day, I'm the least threatening looking person in a crowd. I dress plainly, I avoid "Tactical" clothing, and I just look like Joe Bum College guy. Most would assume I'm a anti-gun, latte drinking, sheep. Carrying openly defeats any sort of advantage of blending into the background. Mr. Bad Guy shows up, notices a herd of sheep with no sheepdog, tries to take advantage of the situation, and before he can process why one of the sheep has fangs like his own, he's gone. Maybe I'm just more paranoid than most...

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    Founder's Club Member Jim675's Avatar
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    celeb;
    Take some time and read this forum. This issue has been raised many (,many, many) times. You'll probably see some frustration from some of the folks that respond to you.
    Many people here have OC'd for some time. There's a wealth of real-world experience.
    So, we begin:

    (Snip)
    "The first is anyone who decides they are having a bad day are probably going to off you first, probably with a bullet in the back of the head, because your their biggest threat at the moment."

    Its very difficult to find an example of this in real life for two reasons. One, the vast majority of criminals want easy pickin's and a fast escape. Two, although there are probably thousands who OC regulary its still a very small percentage of the population.

    The chances of the rare intentionally murderous thug meeting the rare OCer is extremely rare. In fact, I doubt you can find any actual news reports of a criminal killing an OCing civilian. Zero is pretty rare.

    (Snip)
    "The second is more realistic, in it removes any sort of tactical advantage of anonymity."

    Perhaps you can come up with scenarios where this is bad. I can for CC as well. Here's some reality:
    When I OC I am more aware of my surroundings.
    When I OC I am always conciously polite. Most people don't apparently notice the OC'd weapon. Those that do tend to be very polite as well. I get more "Sirs", doors held open, nicer service, etc.
    There are many personal stories in the True Tales of Self Defense forum where our members simply made eye contact with the BG and a probable crime was prevented. BG slinks away. Your average mugger, 7-11 robber, bully, etc. wants nothing to do with an armed "victim".
    CC does not pass that critical info to the BG. You actually have to do a MAJOR escalation by drawing your weapon. To someone that probably has poor decision making skills and a ton of adrenaline already flowing this can have unwanted side effects.

    CC does nothing for your gun rights in general. Other people can't see the combination of your gun AND your decent behavior so they never associate the two. All the see is BGs and LEOs and they forget that there's a third group - the law-abiding citizen.
    There's a million more, but let's start the discussion here...
    Welcome,
    Jim

    edit:spelling


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    Founder's Club Member - Moderator longwatch's Avatar
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    Or he sees the herd has a sheepdog and he realizes hes made a bad career choice and goes away, or doesn't even notice at all and still attacks and the sheepdog draws quicker using his larger and more effective OC piece and saves more lives. The end.

    Its all conjecture and not really provable until we get enough data to back up our respective theories. The only way that happens is if people OC.

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    Yea, I agree with what you guys are doing here, I was just throwing out some of my thoughts. I would like to get together with some of the locals to chat and maybe send some lead downrange. I'm not much of a forum person, you'll probably only see me once in a blue moon on here. I apologize for not reading the previously posted issues on this, I understand it's probably been overly debated.

    I guess where I'm coming from is my introvertedness to just about everything. I usually just keep to myself. I know I should be more outspoken on issues that are important to me, but I never am.

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    Welcome aka_caleb! That's the old wive's tale about OC... "you'll be taken out first and lose tactical advantage in a gunfight". We're nationwide and have yet to hear of one time that has happened. And OC is far more of a deterrent to crime than CC and we have had members' OC actually prevent crime and even a bank robbery just by the sight of his OC'ed sidearm!

    Read around a bit, use the search feature to find what you're looking for and if you still can't find it, just ask!

    Welcome aboard!

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    Try OC for a week. I bet you can count the number of people who notice your firearm on one hand with 3 fingers left over...

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    I'm pretty sure if I opened carried for a week, nobody would notice. I generally wear dark clothes and since I'm sitting down in a wheelchair my waistline is well below people average line of sight. Plus, people generally avoid looking at me...

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    People generally avoid looking at you because you are in a wheelchair???

    WTF? :what:



    edit to add well, okay I guess you could count the number of people who notice your firearm on one hand with 4 fingers and a thumb left over :celebrate


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    Yea, its pretty weird how invisible a guy in a wheelchair can become. Its not that they don't "see" me, they just try not to seem like they are staring or something, I dunno. I have a spare chair that I let my friends use to see what I'm talking about, and everybody notices it right away.

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    Huh. I guess I wouldn't want to be perceived as staring ata disabled person but I sure wouldn't just ignore them because they are in a wheelchair/scared/burned/retarded/whatever.

    Then again maybe its because I have a cousin that has Downs Syndrome, who knows?

    At any rate, I shoot at Range USA occasionally, maybe I will see you there sometimes (I am assuming you won't be too hard to recognize :celebrate)



    Thats a poor taste joke as I am sure you are not the only wheelchair bound person to shoot there - sorry, I have a sick sense of humor

    Seriously no offence meant :P

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    Don't worry about offending me, and I haven't ran across another guy in a chair shooting in Memphis, so by all accounts, your comment is valid

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    Cool. If I see you there I will introduce myself.

    Name is Dan BTW...

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    Regular Member fullauto223cal's Avatar
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    Might I suggest you read the following, it might help you understand a bit more of how we feel as well as anwser your questions.

    http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum6/7507.html

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    Regular Member fullauto223cal's Avatar
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    Mr. Bad Guy shows up, notices a herd of sheep with no sheepdog, tries to take advantage of the situation, and before he can process why one of the sheep has fangs like his own, he's gone. Maybe I'm just more paranoid than most...
    You just anwsered your own question. According to your example, if Mr. Bad Guy had seen a sheepdog he would have moved on looking for another "herd" as you say. At least you seem to know that Mr. Bad Guy is usually a coward not looking for a fair fight. If he sees someone open carrying and decided to move on then that is far better than becoming involved in a gun battle.

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    I've got an interesting story about the wheelchair issue.

    One of my first jobs was working uniformed security at the local mall, ya know, telling folks where stuff is and finding little lost kids. I was never the over the top "mall cop" who kicked everyone out. One day I was standing with another guard making small talk with one of the tenants when an older gentleman in a wheelchair rolls by. The other guard elbows me and says look, that guys carrying a pistol you can see the handle. He was all up tight because the mall was a "gun free zone". I said look, if anyone needs to carry it's him, don't worry about it. He said he didn't care and the rules were the rules and he should have to leave it out in his car. I told him if he wanted to tell a disabled person to leave there best means of protection in their car go ahead, I'll have no part of it. He didn't move one step and just pouted about it.

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    fullauto223cal wrote:
    I've got an interesting story about the wheelchair issue.

    One of my first jobs was working uniformed security at the local mall, ya know, telling folks where stuff is and finding little lost kids. I was never the over the top "mall cop" who kicked everyone out. One day I was standing with another guard making small talk with one of the tenants when an older gentleman in a wheelchair rolls by. The other guard elbows me and says look, that guys carrying a pistol you can see the handle. He was all up tight because the mall was a "gun free zone". I said look, if anyone needs to carry it's him, don't worry about it. He said he didn't care and the rules were the rules and he should have to leave it out in his car. I told him if he wanted to tell a disabled person to leave there best means of protection in their car go ahead, I'll have no part of it. He didn't move one step and just pouted about it.
    This wasn't Old Hickoty Mall was it?

    There was a post on another board about guy surrounded by Old Hickory Mall secuity in the parkng lot while he was armed. He even wanted to just leave and wasn't allowed to until JPD arrived. Of course he was let go because he had broke no law.
    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

    "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin

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    Regular Member Fallguy's Avatar
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    I had heard that about officer not in uniform as well. When they sat her down they should have also explained the law (39-17-1350) that lets LEO carry just about anywhere on duty or not. They have some restrictions but posted property is not one of them.

    I agree, it's a bad area and I have lost nothing at Old Hickory Mall, haven't been there in YEARS and no plans of going anytime soon. But if I do as long as it not properly posted according to 39-17-1359 I will carry as well.
    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

    "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin

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    I'll probably be crucified for this statement, but how do you deal with open carry all the time. I would love to open carry, but I'm a shortest quickest route kind of guy, and when I conceal carry I only have to focus on one thing, being aware and staying out of trouble. Carrying concealed all the time, I don't have to worry about breaking any laws and getting into trouble and having the book thrown at me. Sure, I break a few laws going some places with a concealed handgun, but its concealed, and nobody knows. But if I break a law open carrying, then I'm screwed, because everybody knows. The last thing I want to do is have to deal with legal ****. Am I just not cut out to open carry?

    All that to say this; How can I become someone who open carries consistantly? I can read laws all day long, and I have no clue what they are saying. Everything gets so misconstrued and twisted and nothing is in simple retard english. Basically "THE MAN" has me so clustered**** in the mind as to what I can and cannot do, that everything I do do I keep to myself.

    Also, quite ironically I guess, I am on the cover on July's Concealed Carry Magazine. I don't know if anyone here reads that since this is an Open Carry forum, but thought I would throw that out there.

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    Honestly, theres just not that much to deal with. Yeah, MAYBE the LEOs will mess with you but ultimately they have no leg to stand on,AND you are limited to the restaurants you can eat at, but you should (in theory) have the same limitations with CC - I realize people break the law on that one all the time and get away with it - but its still breaking the law, and if you were to get caught?Bye Bye CCW.

    Start OCing and get used to it, you will only go back to CCwhen there is a tactical need to do so.

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    Regular Member Fallguy's Avatar
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    Well I admit I don't OC that much, but it's not because I'm worried about breaking the law, but mainly don't want to explain myself at times...and others don't want to be asked to leave by a property owner that was to lazy to post but is still an anti-.

    There basically only 5 places that it is illegal for someone with a HCP to carry.

    1.) Places that serve alcohol for onsite consumption. (39-17-1305)

    2.) Any room where a judicial proceeding is taking place. (39-17-1306)

    3.) Schools. (39-17-1309)(Can be left in car (39-17-1309(c)(1){Second half})or even left on your person if you are not getting out and simply picking up or dropping of passengers. (39-17-1310))

    4.) Any publicly owned playground, park, civic center or other recreational property or buildings. (39-17-1311)

    5.) Any place with a properly posted sign per 39-17-1359.

    Now some places may have a no carry policy or non-compliant signs, but that doesn't make it illegal to carry there only against their polciy. Now you may be asked to leave and if you don't leave once told to you may be charged with trespassing.

    The last sentence is another reason I don't often OC, according to the AG (Opinion 07-148)a property owner can effectively ban you from now on if you armed by simply saying "I don't want you to ever carry a handgun in here." (Or some similar phrase). So then even at some point in the future...even if they never post a proper sign you could still be charged with trespassing if you returned armed. So in a small town you could run out of places to grocery shop quick...lol
    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

    "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin

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    1.) Places that serve alcohol for onsite consumption. (39-17-1305)

    I've been told that this only refers to places that primarily serves alchohol. After reading it, it doesn't seem like that is correct, seeing that it doesn't say anything primarily. Does anyone know any sit-down restuarants in Memphis TN that doesn't serve alcohol for onsite consumption. This basically cuts you down to fast food if you decide to open carry.

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    Regular Member Fallguy's Avatar
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    It is any place that serves alcohol for onsite consumption period.

    There was a bill in the legislature this last session that would have removed the restriction all together, then they tried to change it to where it would allow carry in restaurants, but not bars. The trouble is there is no legal definition in the TCA as to what a bar or restaurant is. So it has been sent to a summer study committee to hopefully work things out.
    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

    "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin

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    ok. So no open carry at parks, community centers, schools, restaurants(in Memphis they ALL serve alcohol), or posted places. Gotcha. And I'm guessing it just smart rule of thumb to NOT open carry into a bank and the post office. Most have signs against weapons, so its a mute point.

    I'm going to start adding places into my PDA that do not allow firearms that I frequent often, and stop going there, and see where that leaves me. It would be interesting to do for a week. I'm guessing there already is a forum with places in Memphis area that allow/ban weapons?


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    Are Post Offices off limits? And also, what about National Parks such as Great Smokey Mountains National Park?

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