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Just what Spokane needs....

Johnny Law

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asforme wrote:
No mechanical safety of any kind will prevent stupidity. I hate to think how many NDs we would be seeing if cops carried 1911s. If there fingers are on the triggers do you think they would still have a manual safety engaged? Now there only a hair trigger away from shooting you.

There are no accident prone guns, only accident prone people.
News flash........I and Many Officers carry 1911's on and off duty. I have never had an AD, and have seen only one in 15 years from another Officer (it was a glock). Here's another tip; if my finger is on the trigger, the manual safety is OFF, as I am very concerned that I may need to pull the trigger any moment.
 

Alwayspacking

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Johnny Law wrote:
asforme wrote:
No mechanical safety of any kind will prevent stupidity. I hate to think how many NDs we would be seeing if cops carried 1911s. If there fingers are on the triggers do you think they would still have a manual safety engaged? Now there only a hair trigger away from shooting you.

There are no accident prone guns, only accident prone people.
News flash........I and Many Officers carry 1911's on and off duty. I have never had an AD, and have seen only one in 15 years from another Officer (it was a glock). Here's another tip; if my finger is on the trigger, the manual safety is OFF, as I am very concerned that I may need to pull the trigger any moment.


Johnny Law thanks for your service, you are brave man, I could not do your job. I use to shake LE hands every time I came in contact with one because I know how dangerous their job is. But after being racial profiled and stereotyped in NC over the years I stopped shaking their hands. Nothing against LE, but it just sucks that I got searched every time I was stopped by a LEO, and having guns out of holster when some would walk to my car. So I stop going out of my way to thank them for their service. But I still give them my up most respect.

In regards to LEO and 1911's there is a short trigger pull on that pistol, that’s one of the reasons why I love it so much. But I was reading about how when a person holding a gun could accidentally pull the trigger when they are startled or stumbles. It is a natural reaction of the hand, so any pistol really being pointed at someone is a dangerous situation.

I have had a LEO point his gun a me before, he was moving on foot at the time thankfully he did not shoot me. No matter what gun it is, it has the possibility of a AD. And there are lots of competent LEO out there and there are some that are not, same goes with the civilian sector. It's just that LEO are more likely to draw their weapon than a civilian, because LEO run to the danger, and us civilian are to run away from It so there is a more likelihood of a AD.

I just wanted to make that clear, I don’t want to offend you from my statement.
 

asforme

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Johnny Law wrote:
asforme wrote:
No mechanical safety of any kind will prevent stupidity. I hate to think how many NDs we would be seeing if cops carried 1911s. If there fingers are on the triggers do you think they would still have a manual safety engaged? Now there only a hair trigger away from shooting you.

There are no accident prone guns, only accident prone people.
News flash........I and Many Officers carry 1911's on and off duty. I have never had an AD, and have seen only one in 15 years from another Officer (it was a glock). Here's another tip; if my finger is on the trigger, the manual safety is OFF, as I am very concerned that I may need to pull the trigger any moment.
Sorry, I meant no personal insult to you. Do you carry a 1911 out of personal choice or is it the standard duty weapon where you are?

One of my greatest fears of OCing is that some cop because they don't know the law will rush me with their gun drawn, then because they have their finger on the trigger will accidentally shoot me. There have been stories posted here of people being confronted at gun point with fingers on the triggers. That fear would be even compounded if their finger was resting on the light trigger of a 1911. However I have more confidence that an officer who voluntarily carries a 1911 is more versed in proper gun handeling than the officer who just takes and uses whatever they are issued.

My point in making that comment is that manual safety's will not help an officer who does not know when to keep their finger off the trigger. I'm sure this does not apply to you and probably does not apply to any officer who carries a 1911 out of personal choice.
 

Johnny Law

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asforme wrote:
Sorry, I meant no personal insult to you. Do you carry a 1911 out of personal choice or is it the standard duty weapon where you are?

One of my greatest fears of OCing is that some cop because they don't know the law will rush me with their gun drawn, then because they have their finger on the trigger will accidentally shoot me. There have been stories posted here of people being confronted at gun point with fingers on the triggers. That fear would be even compounded if their finger was resting on the light trigger of a 1911. However I have more confidence that an officer who voluntarily carries a 1911 is more versed in proper gun handeling than the officer who just takes and uses whatever they are issued.

My point in making that comment is that manual safety's will not help an officer who does not know when to keep their finger off the trigger. I'm sure this does not apply to you and probably does not apply to any officer who carries a 1911 out of personal choice.
Glock is the standard issue, but I have the luxury of carryingANY weapon that is of high quality. I even have a choice of many calibers. The only stipulation is that you must purchase the weapon yourself.

I can certainly understand your concern, but you must remember that Officers point their guns at literally hundreds of people, and become very confident doing so. This is not the case in the civilian sector, where ifone had to point a gun at a person, most would be very nervous, as it is not a common act for them.

One of my biggest concerns is when I am confronting an armed person (good, bad, or ugly). I will never have them remove their gun, as I have seen several people grab the grip, put their finger on the trigger, and even point it at the Officer, as they are trying to hand it to them. This is how people get shot, as the Officer has to assume the worst at that point.

Nobody likes having guns pointed at them, but it is how an Officer stays safe, and maintains the upper hand during an encounter that they are not comfortable with. Luckily, it is not always necessary, and this is where cooperation and a good attitude will help place the Officer more at ease.

Btw Alwayspacking.
I really appreciate your positive comments, as the bulk of what any Officer gets is critcism. I am sorry that you have been racially profiled in the past, as I do not tolerate that in any form. Anyone who respects the Police is a valuable asset, as you never know who will be needing who's help someday.

I would be proud to shake your hand.
 

Alwayspacking

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Thank you.

And stay safe on the streets.

One more off topic comment sorry… Before I would have loved to go SWAT, because I know I will be going into a dangerous situation and I would be mentally prepared for it and tactfully ready. But in approaching a car or someone on the streets, you never know what the outcome would be. Pulse I am not the most toughest guy out there, and a BG might just whip my a** :banghead:so stay safe out there.
 

Bear 45/70

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Johnny Law wrote:
I can certainly understand your concern, but you must remember that Officers point their guns at literally hundreds of people, and become very confident doing so. This is not the case in the civilian sector, where ifone had to point a gun at a person, most would be very nervous, as it is not a common act for them.
Any time anyone becomes comfortable pointing a gun at another person, that's asking for a disaster.
 

sv_libertarian

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asforme wrote:
No mechanical safety of any kind will prevent stupidity. I hate to think how many NDs we would be seeing if cops carried 1911s. If there fingers are on the triggers do you think they would still have a manual safety engaged? Now there only a hair trigger away from shooting you.
I know cops who carry 1911's. I carried mine for the first time yesterday, and it took some getting used to.
I'll make fun of glocks but as have been pointed out the safety is your finger and what is between your ears. Some guns are different than others. ND's almost always come from stupid bonehead mistakes made by the person carrying the gun.

That said my personal comfort level is not up to striker fired guns yet, unless they have an empty pipe.
 

asforme

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sv_libertarian wrote:
That said my personal comfort level is not up to striker fired guns yet, unless they have an empty pipe.
Just curious, do you carry with a thumb strap under the hammer then? That's the only way I see a hammer having a better safety net than a striker is because if all internal safeties fail and the hammer falls, it could just fall on a piece of leather.
 

swillden

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asforme wrote:
One of my greatest fears of OCing is that some cop because they don't know the law will rush me with their gun drawn, then because they have their finger on the trigger will accidentally shoot me.
+1

http://youtube.com/watch?v=XnCnqOQSQ8E

(BTW: How do you embed a video in a post? I tried adding a flash object, with the URL of the youtube video, but that didn't seem to work.)
 

asforme

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swillden wrote:
(BTW: How do you embed a video in a post? I tried adding a flash object, with the URL of the youtube video, but that didn't seem to work.)
Code:
Origional URL: [url]http://youtube.com/watch?v=XnCnqOQSQ8E[/url]
Embed: [flash=320,256]http://youtube.com/v/XnCnqOQSQ8E[/flash]
You have to modify the url a bit. Remove the "watch?" and change the "=" to "/".

[flash=320,256]http://youtube.com/v/XnCnqOQSQ8E[/flash]
 

Johnny Law

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asforme wrote:
One of my greatest fears of OCing is that some cop because they don't know the law will rush me with their gun drawn, then because they have their finger on the trigger will accidentally shoot me.
My concern is being shot at by some armed jerk. It is aVALID concern because it has happened several times. I don't have any video, but I could certainly post NUMEROUS clips of idiots intentionallyshooting at the Police.

The incident you posted Asforme, is thankfully an isolated one. I'm not downplaying it, as the female Cop had no business pointing her gun at the bg (and her partner making the arrest) at that point in time. She was obviously inexperienced, and I wouldn't want to work anywhere near her. I'm sure she received some remedial training after that, if she wasn't fired.
 

compmanio365

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I hear that a lot about the striker fired guns issue........did early striker fired guns have issues with sear failures and such, because I have not seen any evidence to back up this issue with carrying "cocked and locked" with a striker fired gun. I do with my gun all the time and have never had any issue. Just as an external hammer won't fall without the safety disengaged and the finger on the trigger, I'd say there's an equal chance for striker fired weapons doing the same........

Just asking, as I've seen this warning about carrying with one in the pipe with a striker-fired weapon on almost every place I've come across.......
 

sv_libertarian

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asforme wrote:
sv_libertarian wrote:
That said my personal comfort level is not up to striker fired guns yet, unless they have an empty pipe.
Just curious, do you carry with a thumb strap under the hammer then? That's the only way I see a hammer having a better safety net than a striker is because if all internal safeties fail and the hammer falls, it could just fall on a piece of leather.
I usually carry a wheelgun. A cocked and locked 1911 as I understand it would have to have the safety fail, something to cause the hammer to slip, and the half cock safety to fail. This assuming someone/thing didn't work the trigger.

As far as striker fired guns go, that is just my personal thing, nothing firmly grounded in reality.

I have started carrying my Jennings .22 with one in the pipe once I firmly studied and understood the safety and satisfied myself that is very postive. Mebbe I will get an LCP soon.
 

asforme

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Johnny Law wrote:
asforme wrote:
One of my greatest fears of OCing is that some cop because they don't know the law will rush me with their gun drawn, then because they have their finger on the trigger will accidentally shoot me.
My concern is being shot at by some armed jerk. It is aVALID concern because it has happened several times. I don't have any video, but I could certainly post NUMEROUS clips of idiots intentionallyshooting at the Police.
Definitely a valid concern. But police are trained heavily in the use of handguns but the issue of police with their fingers on the trigger too soon seems to not be being addressed with the importance it should. I would be interested to know, for your LE training how much stress was put on this issue? Are police in fact trained to keep their finger off the trigger until ready to pull it?
 

Johnny Law

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asforme wrote:
Definitely a valid concern. But police are trained heavily in the use of handguns but the issue of police with their fingers on the trigger too soon seems to not be being addressed with the importance it should. I would be interested to know, for your LE training how much stress was put on this issue? Are police in fact trained to keep their finger off the trigger until ready to pull it?
Indexing is one ofthe most basic firearm skills that you are taught. It is highly stressed, and is put in practice religiously (in my Dept.). There are many critical instances when an officer is pointing a gun at someone. Usuallythe Officermay feel relatively comfortable with the situation (for instance if there are several Officers onscene with weapons drawn) and be indexing. Other times he may be alone, or feel that the person is an immediate threat to his, or other Officers safety, and have his finger on the trigger, ready to shoot. It is however, a matter of discretion, andeach individual Officer makes up his own mind about the threat level at any given time.
 

heresolong

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Massad Ayoob is a well known instructor and has written numerous articles on firearms, self defense, etc. He has stated in articles that I have read that the testing that they have done shows that the difference in reaction time between finger on the trigger and finger off the trigger is so neglible as to be non-existent. He trains civilians and police both to carry the gun with the finger off the trigger until ready to shoot.
 

EOD

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In reply to the finger on/finger off trigger issue:

We carry Glock 22's. We fire about 30k rounds during our academy and about 5k rounds for sustainment each year. Not ONE ND. Worst we have had is somebody shoot a barricade.

We do the mentioned drill constantly. If we look at our holster while reholstering, you have an instructor up your a$$ in a heartbeat.

Sights on target = finger on trigger

sights not on target (IE low ready) = finger off trigger

Pretty simple and straightforward. And it seems to be working for us.

Just my input is all.
 

asforme

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EOD wrote:
Sights on target = finger on trigger
This is what scares me, what if I'm the target? There is no need to put the finger on the trigger until you are committed to shooting.
 

Bear 45/70

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asforme wrote:
EOD wrote:
Sights on target = finger on trigger
This is what scares me, what if I'm the target? There is no need to put the finger on the trigger until you are committed to shooting.
I agree, these finger on the trigger guys or way over reacting in most cases. Unless your target has a gun in his hand there is no excuse for a finger on the trigger ever.
 
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