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Thread: IN OUR VIEW: 'Open carry' goes too far

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    State Researcher Kevin Jensen's Avatar
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    http://www.heraldextra.com/content/view/269544/57/

    Wednesday, 11 June 2008

    IN OUR VIEW: 'Open carry' goes too far

    Daily Herald

    Those would-be John Waynes who are carrying around pistols in plain sight need to use a little more common sense.

    A story in the Sunday Herald talked about the open carry movement, a fledgling effort to exercise the right to carry a firearm openly. The story profiled men and women along the Wasatch Front who tote their pistols on their hips as they work, shop, dine or drop their children off at school.

    Open carry is legal in Utah, so long as the gun is unloaded -- and that’s just fine. But the radical gun-righter’s don’t exhibit the sense that God gave a pencil eraser. Just because something can be done doesn’t mean that it should be. In today's society, the presence of a handgun on somebody's hip -- other than an officer of the law -- is likely to make people uncomfortable.

    If the advocates' theory is that forcing the general public to see the guns on the hips of law-abiding individuals will eventually result in more public acceptance of guns, we think they are mistaken. Their boat-rocking is more likely to bring on restrictive legislation.

    Well, advocates of open carry say, “I have a permit for concealed carry, but concealed weapons are uncomfortable and make me feel furtive, like I've got something to hide.”

    Yes, folks, you do have something to hide, and you should hide it -- not because guns are bad or because you're a threat, but because guns make a lot of people uncomfortable, and they think youmight be a threat. After all, most of the people in the grocery store parking lot don't know you, and from their point of view youcould be a threat. Odds are that you look more like a criminal than a lawyer.

    So why would you want negative thoughts crossing the minds of a bunch of total strangers?

    Open carry has become something of a cause. A Web site backing the idea, opencarry.org, claims more than 4,000 supporters who want to make guns as common a sight in public as cell phones.

    But the Wild West is long gone, folks. The strutting of deadly machismo is unnecessary. Be happy with your concealed guns.

    Though carrying an unloaded gun openly in a holster should remain legal, this doesn't mean people should go out of their way to rub the community's face in it. We can also see how, in some circumstances, police might view this as just one more thing to worry about -- even the rank-and-file officers who, unlike much of police leadership in America, are friends of private firearms guns and the right to self-defense.

    This is not to backtrack at all from the importance of liberal concealed-carry laws. Research indicates that states that widely allow concealed-carry permits show decreases in crime, with no rise in gunshot accidents. Permit holders are among the most law-abiding people in the country.

    Some of the best known evidence for the benefits of liberal concealed-carry laws comes in the work of John Lott, author of "More Guns, Less Crime." So it is revealing when Lott expresses doubts about "open carry."

    On his blog, johnrlott.blogspot.com, Lott recently wrote that, compared to open carry, "there are probably greater social benefits to people carrying guns concealed since it protects people who don't carry. In addition, if a criminal is going to attack a group of people in public, he can wait for the people who are openly carrying to leave the area or [he can] take those people out first."

    In an e-mail to the Daily Herald, he added, "I understand the desire for some to carry openly to show that people do it and to get others comfortable with law-abiding citizens with guns. That is something valuable. On the other hand, I think that it is more useful with regard to crime for you to have concealed carry." In other words, with concealed carry, every person on the street might be packing. This is a deterrent because a criminal doesn't know who might be able to defend himself.

    The open-carry movement just goes too far. Socially, it's thoughtless; politically, it's short-sighted; and even tactically, it's unsound.

    It's better all around for those who want to pack a weapon to get a concealed-carry permit. In today's world, we doubt even John Wayne would strap on his Colt .45 just to go shopping at Costco.

    Editorial Board

    Craig Dennis, President and Publisher

    Randy Wright, Executive Editor

    Jim Tynen, Editorial page Editor




    "An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life." Robert A. Heinlein

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    I hate the herald....

    Everyone write letters to the editor about your positive experiences -- and maybe correct them by informing them of loaded carry with a permit.


    EDIT: Great reply Swilden!

    EDIT #2: My response:


    First I would like to thank you for recognizing an individuals right to keep and bear arms, even if that individual chooses to do so openly.

    I Open Carry most of the time that I am not at work and I have found that the vast majority of people never even notice. Most of those who do notice don't say anything and don't run out of the store screaming and calling 911. Those who choose to say something are, without exception (in my experience) asking out of curiosity and not concern.

    I recognize that there are situations when concealing my firearm is more appropriate, such as wedding receptions or other formal events, and I do conceal when necessary. I have a Concealed Firearms Permit, so I can hide it if I want, but there are many who do not have permits that cannot be denied their right to Keep and Bear Arms.

    It may also be important to note that Permit holders may Open Carry loaded firearms and are not bound by the "unloaded" restrictions.

    I carry a firearm to protect myself and those I love, I carry it openly in a spirit of activism and education. I never holster my sidearm with an attitude of aggression or machismo.

    In response to Woody's immature name calling and accusations: I am 6'5" and drive a small scooter (not a big truck). I was not picked on as a child. I am very peaceful and go out of my way to avoid any confrontations. All who have met me have found me to be courteous and polite, as I have found the majority of my fellow Open Carriers to be.

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    I had the same thoughts on this article, so I second what you said. They just don't understand all the other sides. Which you highlighted! The article flowed smoothly and was written well except for not knowing all the facts and details about OC. And of course not agreeing with the article.
    "When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty."
    Thomas Jefferson

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    But the Wild West is long gone, folks. The strutting of deadly machismo is unnecessary. Be happy with your concealed guns.
    Are you kidding me?! It is as if they are bestowing this right and feel that they should be able to remove our rights if they so feel inclined. Be happy? I will show you happy! I commit to open carry twice as often just to show them that they need to "be happy" with my legal open carry. That and you can count on it being cocked and locked in the serpa, baby!!:celebrate

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    SGT Jensen wrote:
    Quote from the Herald:
    Just because something can be done doesn’t mean that it should be.

    And Freedom of the press means bad advice such as telling othersnot toexercise one or more oftheir rights "can be done". Should it though?

    You all keep on exercising your right toprinting bird-cage liners & I'll continue carrying my firearm however I see fit. Fair nuf?

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    http://www.heraldextra.com/content/view/269544/57/

    Wednesday, 11 June 2008

    IN OUR VIEW: 'Open carry' goes too far

    Daily Herald




    What a great article!

    I think the shoe fits! SOME OF YOU !!!!!

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    Marine Master Sergeant wrote:
    http://www.heraldextra.com/content/view/269544/57/

    Wednesday, 11 June 2008

    IN OUR VIEW: 'Open carry' goes too far

    Daily Herald




    What a great article!

    I think the shoe fits! SOME OF YOU !!!!!
    TROLL!!!!

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    Marine Master Sergeant wrote:
    http://www.heraldextra.com/content/view/269544/57/

    Wednesday, 11 June 2008

    IN OUR VIEW: 'Open carry' goes too far

    Daily Herald




    What a great article!

    I think the shoe fits! SOME OF YOU !!!!!
    Why are you even on this forum? I think you're in the wrong place.

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    Regular Member thx997303's Avatar
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    And I think the term Troll fits you, and I refer you to SGT Jensen's earlier post about Marines.

    Yeah, I like that one.

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    Marine Master Sergeant wrote:
    http://www.heraldextra.com/content/view/269544/57/

    Wednesday, 11 June 2008

    IN OUR VIEW: 'Open carry' goes too far

    Daily Herald




    What a great article!

    I think the shoe fits! SOME OF YOU !!!!!
    You talkin' to me?:?

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    thx,

    Sorry to have offended you. Yes, Sgt Jensen is right-I use my rank and organization, simply because I am pretty damn proud, of both my service to our country, and alsoof the organization I served in. As you may have noticed,I pleasantly "dismissed" the maturecomments of your dear Sgt J.It gives me great pleasure to know that the only response one can make towards me, is a derrogatory comment towards my service?Is that all you've got thx??????

    I expected oh, soooooo much more from a 20 year old.

    You go now, and have a great day! (don't forget your sidearm), - and make sure everybody can see it, cause you're not 21 yet (you stud!).



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    State Researcher Kevin Jensen's Avatar
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    Are youstill here? Look, bro, if you love concealed carry sooooo damn much, why don't you join us for some civil conversation at www.utahconcealedcarry.com
    "An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life." Robert A. Heinlein

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    the only respect you get from me, marine, is your service and that is all. i agree that some people should not have firearms... butall of my friendsand iwho OC (kevin, TJ, tucker) all shoot VERY often, we have had alot of experience with firing and handling firearms. do not treat us as if we have never handled a firearm before. im sure we have more knowledge of theLAW than you do. all you have is a MASTER SERGEANT title. which isnt a bad position, its just that you seem to think you are above all of us for having it.

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    also, marines previous comment struck me as sarcastic, so i must point out that that is VERY mature for a veteran of 20 years... very mature indeed.

    i wish he was proud enough of his country to understand our RIGHT and to not be a *** about it

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    You won't even get the respect for your service from me, master sarge. I served for 6 years as a US Marine as well and you should be ashamed to continue to spout the BS that you were, or are, a marine while disparaging the rights that you say you served for. YOU are a disgrace to the uniform.

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    Yo Bro,

    Thanks for the web address!- You're pretty helpful.

    I went over there, and I see a large amount of "you guys" there, just "posting away!" Now I am really confused! (You know us Meatheads, right Sgt J)--

    You all are sooooo "ALL ABOUT OPEN CARRY"-- the question I now am baffled with-- "WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU ALL DOING, GOING ANYWHERE NEAR THAT SITE?? We can't be having it "BOTH" ways. You all need to stick together. (what a great team you've got here, Sgt J--)

    Have you investigated this SGT J? You being the almighty SARG, I think some punishments should be dished out- you should start w/ thx. Heck, the "MAN" was just grounded last week-

    later bro.

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    State Researcher Kevin Jensen's Avatar
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    Marine Master Sergeant wrote:
    You all are sooooo "ALL ABOUT OPEN CARRY"-- the question I now am baffled with-- "WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU ALL DOING, GOING ANYWHERE NEAR THAT SITE?? We can't be having it "BOTH" ways. You all need to stick together. (what a great team you've got here, Sgt J--)

    So now you are anti diversity? Geez, who's side are you on? Oh, thats right, your side.

    The offer still stands, join us at UCC, and bash open carry on a CC website.
    "An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life." Robert A. Heinlein

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    State Researcher Kevin Jensen's Avatar
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    Marine Master Sergeant wrote:
    Have you investigated this SGT J? You being the almighty SARG, I think some punishments should be dished out- you should start w/ thx.

    Me almight? nah, just a buck Sergeant. you are the one with the rank.

    Marine Master Sergeant wrote:
    Bobby, Don't ever refer to me as your "brother E8". And don't ever question my service, nor my loyalty to our nation. The blue I.D. card is in my wallet. And I receive a paycheck on the 1st of every month-for the rest of my life.
    "An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life." Robert A. Heinlein

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    Marine Master Sergeant,

    Iwrite none of this with the intention of offending you or anyone else on the board.

    Just a little information. I am within a few days of my 21st birthday. I already do have a permit thanks to Maine issuing a permit and for Utah accepting it. I am also a Aviation Warrant Officer in the US Army. I don't tell you this just to one up you in anyway. I too am proud of my service the last four years and the things that I do to defend this country and the rights we have. I do a mixture of open and conceal carry. The mixture depends on who I am with, what i might be wearing, and what i might be doing. I am thankful that our Constitution that both you and I swore to defend allows me to care a weapon for self defense in the way that works best for me, it that is open or concealed.

    I am also thankful that we have Freedom of Speech. Something else that you and I swore to defend. I am happy to hear your comments. But NOW THIS GOES FOR EVERYONE ON THE BOARD NOT JUST Marine Master Sergeant, but I do not feel the need to attack individuals on there choice of carry. I don't know if thx997303is 21 or not, but if he chooses to only open carry that is his choice. Just like we get to choose what religion we want to study we all get to choose how we carry a weapon.

    Now I thinkMarine Master Sergeant, and a few others here are going a little far in attacking other people. Marine Master Sergeantin your very first comment on the boards here on Open Carry you might have attacked a little to much, and I also feel that maybe some of the people on the board may have also read to much into your first comment.

    I would hope that everyone here on this board will be polite and not make comments like:

    "I think the shoe fits! SOME OF YOU !!!!!"

    or

    "Troll"


    or start tearing down our armed forces. I for one am offended by people who called marines what they did. I have worked with and know many marines. Yes they are of a different breed. Thus they are Marines, and guess what, they are damn good at what they do. I will fight along side one any day in a combat zone. All our armed forces have a role to play. Please do not demoralize them. Because tearing them down here in the States only demoralizes out troops over in the sand box.

    I hope that this comment doesn't offend anyone in any way. I just had a few thoughts that I felt I should share with people.

    Thanks, Tucker




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    Bravo! Bravo Rocknsnow!

    What HE said. I served a little time on our wonderful armed forces, Can't say I ever met a twenty year old warrant officer? You have my curiosity peaked. I'm gonna give the Army Recruiting Command a call. I am highly interested in knowing how many 20 year-old warrant officers are serving in the Army. (gotta son that may be interested).

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    this is fun. ok marine. just look, none of us carry just to "CARRY" we carry to defend ourselves and to educate people who dont know, so THEY TOO can carry. not everyone has a permit, period. so not all can conceal carry, period. have a nice day! bye

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    rocknsnow,

    I just wanted to let you know that my calling of MMS a troll was only to point out his bad behavior. A troll is someone who posts controversial and usually irrelevant or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum or chat room, with the intention of baiting other users into an emotional response[1] or to generally disrupt normal on-topic discussion. As such I shout the TROLL warning and then try to follow the saying, "Don't feed the trolls!"

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    Now that is my mistake. Thanks for the clarification. I really wan't sure what that meant. So that is my mistake. Sorry about that. Guess I would assume quite as much. I just hope that everyone just gets along. We are all fighting the same battle. We are all defending out right to carry. It is just how we wish to go about carrying.

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    Stupid story, someone must know someone else that persuaded them to write it.

    And stupid MSgt, I was in the marine corps, you act like your just something else and think you can do what ever the hell you want just because your higher ranking. Don't think your going to get respect here because of your position, I could care less if you served or not, if you act like an ass you are an ass.
    Your just one of those I had to respect because of your rank but despised you other wise

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    Stupid story, someone must know someone else that persuaded them to write it.

    And stupid MSgt, I was in the marine corps, you act like your just something else and think you can do what ever the hell you want just because your higher ranking. Don't think your going to get respect here because of your position, I could care less if you served or not, if you act like an ass you are an ass.
    Your just one of those I had to respect because of your rank but despised you other wise

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