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Thread: Weapons free school zones.

  1. #1
    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
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    This is all I could find on carry in a K-12 school. From the exemption below A CPL holder can OC on school grounds. Someone without a CPL could OC with permission. Any other info I'm missing?



    THE MICHIGAN PENAL CODE (EXCERPT)
    Act 328 of 1931

    750.237a Individuals engaging in proscribed conduct; violation; penalties; definitions.


    Sec. 237a.

    (1) An individual who engages in conduct proscribed under section 224, 224a, 224b, 224c, 224e, 226, 227, 227a, 227f, 234a, 234b, or 234c, or who engages in conduct proscribed under section 223(2) for a second or subsequent time, in a weapon free school zone is guilty of a felony punishable by 1 or more of the following:

    (a) Imprisonment for not more than the maximum term of imprisonment authorized for the section violated.

    (b) Community service for not more than 150 hours.

    (c) A fine of not more than 3 times the maximum fine authorized for the section violated.

    (2) An individual who engages in conduct proscribed under section 223(1), 224d, 226a, 227c, 227d, 231c, 232a(1) or (4), 233, 234, 234e, 234f, 235, 236, or 237, or who engages in conduct proscribed under section 223(2) for the first time, in a weapon free school zone is guilty of a misdemeanor punishable by 1 or more of the following:

    (a) Imprisonment for not more than the maximum term of imprisonment authorized for the section violated or 93 days, whichever is greater.

    (b) Community service for not more than 100 hours.

    (c) A fine of not more than $2,000.00 or the maximum fine authorized for the section violated, whichever is greater.

    (3) Subsections (1) and (2) do not apply to conduct proscribed under a section enumerated in those subsections to the extent that the proscribed conduct is otherwise exempted or authorized under this chapter.

    (4) Except as provided in subsection (5), an individual who possesses a weapon in a weapon free school zone is guilty of a misdemeanor punishable by 1 or more of the following:

    (a) Imprisonment for not more than 93 days.

    (b) Community service for not more than 100 hours.

    (c) A fine of not more than $2,000.00.

    (5) Subsection (4) does not apply to any of the following:

    (a) An individual employed by or contracted by a school if the possession of that weapon is to provide security services for the school.

    (b) A peace officer.

    (c) An individual licensed by this state or another state to carry a concealed weapon.

    (d) An individual who possesses a weapon provided by a school or a school's instructor on school property for purposes of providing or receiving instruction in the use of that weapon.

    (e) An individual who possesses a firearm on school property if that possession is with the permission of the school's principal or an agent of the school designated by the school's principal or the school board.

    (f) An individual who is 18 years of age or older who is not a student at the school and who possesses a firearm on school property while transporting a student to or from the school if any of the following apply:

    (i) The individual is carrying an antique firearm, completely unloaded, in a wrapper or container in the trunk of a vehicle while en route to or from a hunting or target shooting area or function involving the exhibition, demonstration or sale of antique firearms.

    (ii) The individual is carrying a firearm unloaded in a wrapper or container in the trunk of the person's vehicle, while in possession of a valid Michigan hunting license or proof of valid membership in an organization having shooting range facilities, and while en route to or from a hunting or target shooting area.

    (iii) The person is carrying a firearm unloaded in a wrapper or container in the trunk of the person's vehicle from the place of purchase to his or her home or place of business or to a place of repair or back to his or her home or place of business, or in moving goods from one place of abode or business to another place of abode or business.

    (iv) The person is carrying an unloaded firearm in the passenger compartment of a vehicle that does not have a trunk, if the person is otherwise complying with the requirements of subparagraph (ii) or (iii) and the wrapper or container is not readily accessible to the occupants of the vehicle.

    (6) As used in this section:

    (a) “Antique firearm” means either of the following:

    (i) A firearm not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional center fire ignition with fixed ammunition and manufactured in or before 1898, including a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system or a replica of such a firearm, whether actually manufactured before or after the year 1898.

    (ii) A firearm using fixed ammunition manufactured in or before 1898, for which ammunition is no longer manufactured in the United States and is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade.

    (b) “School” means a public, private, denominational, or parochial school offering developmental kindergarten, kindergarten, or any grade from 1 through 12.

    (c) “School property” means a building, playing field, or property used for school purposes to impart instruction to children or used for functions and events sponsored by a school, except a building used primarily for adult education or college extension courses.

    (d) “Weapon free school zone” means school property and a vehicle used by a school to transport students to or from school property.


    History: Add. 1994, Act 158, Eff. Aug. 15, 1994

    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

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    Venator, it sure would be nice if an attourney would jump in here on the subsection (4) "possession" thing. after looking at this from several angles, it still appears to me that section (4) simply addresses "posession" and then subsection (5)c allows a person with a cpl to posess in a "weapon free zone". it kind of reminds me of some of the statuates that are crimes for all exept the "authorized police officer". I would like to know but dont want to be the test mule on it.... "Everybody wants to be Hank Williams, but nobody wants to die". Your input is greatly appreciated, thanks. springerdave

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    springerdave wrote:
    Venator, it sure would be nice if an attourney would jump in here on the subsection (4) "possession" thing. after looking at this from several angles, it still appears to me that section (4) simply addresses "posession" and then subsection (5)c allows a person with a cpl to posess in a "weapon free zone". it kind of reminds me of some of the statuates that are crimes for all exept the "authorized police officer". I would like to know but dont want to be the test mule on it.... "Everybody wants to be Hank Williams, but nobody wants to die". Your input is greatly appreciated, thanks. springerdave

    Dave, this is similar to 750.234d (possession of weapons)

    750.234dAlso see: 28.425o (concealed weapons)




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    Springer, looks like sosdd, but one would probably want to "lawyer up" prior to visiting your local school while within your rights.

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    As a future educator, this is very interesting. Would an individual have any recourse for being fired for legally openly carrying?

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    As an employee of the school system and required to adhere to its policies and if a policy stated that you could not carry, you would risk termination if you did carry.

    For example, if I wanted to carry on WMU's campus there is no 'law' preventing me from doing so. Now if I were a student at the University I could be dismissed for violating a policy.

    The question could be, is the school system a 'governmental unit' and as such could not pass any provisions more stringent than the State law.


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    jmlefler wrote:
    As an employee of the school system and required to adhere to its policies and if a policy stated that you could not carry, you would risk termination if you did carry.

    For example, if I wanted to carry on WMU's campus there is no 'law' preventing me from doing so. Now if I were a student at the University I could be dismissed for violating a policy.

    The question could be, is the school system a 'governmental unit' and as such could not pass any provisions more stringent than the State law.
    We have found that universities/college are not covered under a local government, so there is some question if they can ban guns and make it a crime as opposed to a policy (trespass). MCRGO's is working on an opinion on this and may request one from the AG's office. But for know it's up in the air and we recommend you error on the side of caution. Also note whether it's a policy or an ordinance. This makes a big difference.

    We received this from the MSP.

    The preemption law to which you're referring can be found in MCL 123.1102. That statute generally prohibits a local unit of government from regulating firearms. However, colleges and universities are not local units of government for the purposes of that statute; MCL 123.1101 defines "Local unit of government" as "a city, village, township, or county." Further, various statutesin Chapter 390 of the Michigan Compiled Laws grant state colleges and universities broad authority to enact ordinances (e.g., MCL 390.5 grants that power to the University of Michigan). Therefore, it appears that a university can enact and enforce an ordinance prohibiting a CPL holder from carrying a pistol on campus beyond classrooms and dormitories (see MCL 28.425o - the pistol free zone statute for CPL holders).

    There are a number of non-statutory preemption theories used by the courts. It is possible that a court or the Attorney General may hold that state law does preempt a university ordinance. However, at this time we're not aware of an opinion holding that way.

    Finally, it's worth noting that there's a difference between an ordinance and a policy. A university policy does not carry the force of law, and likely only applies to students, faculty, and employees. If you are a university employee, you are bound by the policy (MCL 28.425n allows employers to prohibit employee CPL holders from carrying at work).

    Sincerely, Sgt. Thomas Deasy Michigan State Police Executive Resource Section
    714 S. Harrison Rd. East Lansing, MI 48823 (517) 336-6441

    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

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    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Venator,

    As an educator working in a k-12 district, I have a real interest in this issue.
    According to AG Opinion 7113 dated June 28, 2002, AG Granholm stated that:

    Similarly, section 237a(4) of the Penal Code prohibits possession of a firearm in a weapon free school zone, a term defined in section 237a(6)(d) as “school property and a vehicle used by a school to transport students to or from school property.” Like section 234d(2), the prohibition against possessing firearms in a school zone does not apply to a peace officer or to a person licensed to carry a concealed weapon. Section 237a(5).

    Therefore, it appears that yes, open carry of a firearm at a k-12 school is legal if one has a CPL. However, the comments stating that, as an employer, a district has the right to prohibit employees from possessing firearms on their property or in the course of the employee's employment w/ the district are also pertinent. I have researched the policies and have found some districts do prohibit firearms and some don't. These policies are public information and can usually be found on their website(s). I have, until this time, avoided discussing what I actually do, as I would dread the change in my district's policy.

    The district for whom I work does not prohibit firearms, but the district where I live does prohibit employees from possessing weapons unless they are an LEO. I have carried openly after school and no one even noticed. If you do carry, though, be prepared to have to defend your right. As an employee with tenure, I do not worry about being fired, but do worry about a change in policy.

    --DrTodd
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

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    Guys = I think you are missing an important part of the equation here. While 750.234d provides where you can not open carry and does give an exception for CCW 28.425o modifies that. For example - you may not OC in a bank but you can CC. Either way, unless you meet the exceptions under 750.234d or 28.425 (LEO, PI ect) you can not carry in a school setting - except if you are sitting in your car waiting for your kids to come out.

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    theboyzmom wrote:
    Guys = I think you are missing an important part of the equation here. While 750.234d provides where you can not open carry and does give an exception for CCW 28.425o modifies that. For example - you may not OC in a bank but you can CC. Either way, unless you meet the exceptions under 750.234d or 28.425 (LEO, PI ect) you can not carry in a school setting - except if you are sitting in your car waiting for your kids to come out.
    actually, section 234(d) subsection 2(c) says that if I have a CPL, I am exempt from all restrictions of 750.234d. 28.425o ONLY applies to concealed carry.

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    I beg to disagree - 28.425 says that "an individual licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol, or who is exempt from licensure under section 12a(f), shall not carry a concealed pistol on the premises of any of the following:
    (a) A school or school property . . ." While I agree completely that the other section does give us a pass, since when I am useing my CCW I must carry concealed, 28.425 would prohibit CC in the school, and since I am prohibited from carrying OC then I may not carry.

    But if anyone has any court cases that resolve this apparent confusion, I would love to read them. I just am not sure if I want to risk my CCW by testing the system.

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    since when I am useing my CCW I must carry concealed

    Huh?

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    theboyzmom wrote:
    I beg to disagree - 28.425 says that "an individual licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol, or who is exempt from licensure under section 12a(f), shall not carry a concealed pistol on the premises of any of the following:
    (a) A school or school property . . ." While I agree completely that the other section does give us a pass, since when I am useing my CCW I must carry concealed, 28.425 would prohibit CC in the school, and since I am prohibited from carrying OC then I may not carry.

    But if anyone has any court cases that resolve this apparent confusion, I would love to read them. I just am not sure if I want to risk my CCW by testing the system.
    If you want to play it safe, that is fine. But your statement is based on a common misconception. You are not required to carry concealed if you have a CPL. It just allows you the choice to do so. Now, depending on the circumstances, carrying concealed is the wise choice. BUT, the section above I highlighted shows that 28.425 only applies to concealed carry. Your CPL does not give up any of your rights to open carry.

    There is no "using my CCW (CPL)". Being licensed as a CPL holder just expands your rights.

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    Granted that CCW is an expansion of my right to carry. Let me rephrase. If I am operating under my CCW rights/privleges I would be CC. since the statue prohibits me from CC in a school I can not carry that way. The other statute prohibits me from OC in a school. The fact does not change that that each limits where I may carry. And I also agree that just because I can CC does not mean I HAVE to CC. But either way the statute prevents me from carrying so therefore, I may not carry in a school. The OC statute does limit more where I can carry. Like I said, in a bank I may no OC, but since I have a CCW I can cover the gun up and go about my buisness. This make more sense?

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    Sorry, theboyzmom, you are incorrect. As I work in a school, the district has contacted their attorney who acknowledged this open carry exemption for cpl holders. This was then applied to money transport/ security guards who rely on this AG opinion to be able to enter the school with their pistol exposed.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

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    theboyzmom wrote:
    I beg to disagree - 28.425 says that "an individual licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol, or who is exempt from licensure under section 12a(f), shall not carry a concealed pistol on the premises of any of the following:
    (a) A school or school property . . ." While I agree completely that the other section does give us a pass, since when I am useing my CCW I must carry concealed, 28.425 would prohibit CC in the school, and since I am prohibited from carrying OC then I may not carry.

    But if anyone has any court cases that resolve this apparent confusion, I would love to read them. I just am not sure if I want to risk my CCW by testing the system.
    28.425 says that "an individual licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol, or who is exempt from licensure under section 12a(f), shall not carry a concealed pistol on the premises of any of the following:
    (a) A school or school property . . ."
    Agreed.
    when I am useing my CCW I must carry concealed
    No. You are not required to CC in Michigan if you have a CPL.
    28.425 would prohibit CC in the school
    28.425o does prohibit CC in schools (K-12).

    750.234d prohibits possession of weapons in the listed areas (a)-->(h), schools (K-12) are not listed/mentioned.

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    750.234a

    In pertinent part:

    (4) Except as provided in subsection (5), an individual who possesses a weapon in a weapon free school zone is guilty of a misdemeanor punishable by 1 or more of the following:

    (a) Imprisonment for not more than 93 days.

    (b) Community service for not more than 100 hours.

    (c) A fine of not more than $2,000.00.

    (5) Subsection (4) does not apply to any of the following:

    (a) An individual employed by or contracted by a school if the possession of that weapon is to provide security services for the school.

    (b) A peace officer.

    (c) An individual licensed by this state or another state to carry a concealed weapon.

    (d) An individual who possesses a weapon provided by a school or a school's instructor on school property for purposes of providing or receiving instruction in the use of that weapon.

    (e) An individual who possesses a firearm on school property if that possession is with the permission of the school's principal or an agent of the school designated by the school's principal or the school board.

    (f) An individual who is 18 years of age or older who is not a student at the school and who possesses a firearm on school property while transporting a student to or from the school if any of the following apply:


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    theboyzmom wrote:
    The other statute prohibits me from OC in a school.

    "The other statute" specifically exempts CPL holders. It does not apply in any way shape or form to those who have a CPL.

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    theboyzmom wrote:
    Granted that CCW is an expansion of my right to carry. Let me rephrase. If I am operating under my CCW rights/privleges I would be CC. since the statue prohibits me from CC in a school I can not carry that way. The other statute prohibits me from OC in a school. The fact does not change that that each limits where I may carry. And I also agree that just because I can CC does not mean I HAVE to CC. But either way the statute prevents me from carrying so therefore, I may not carry in a school. The OC statute does limit more where I can carry. Like I said, in a bank I may no OC, but since I have a CCW I can cover the gun up and go about my buisness. This make more sense?
    750.234d only prohibits possession of weapons in the areas (a)-->(h), the one being financial institutions. It does not prohibit possession (OC or CC) of your handgun if you have a CPL.

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    theboyzmom wrote:
    Granted that CCW is an expansion of my right to carry. Let me rephrase. If I am operating under my CCW rights/privleges I would be CC. since the statue prohibits me from CC in a school I can not carry that way. The other statute prohibits me from OC in a school. The fact does not change that that each limits where I may carry. And I also agree that just because I can CC does not mean I HAVE to CC. But either way the statute prevents me from carrying so therefore, I may not carry in a school. The OC statute does limit more where I can carry. Like I said, in a bank I may no OC, but since I have a CCW I can cover the gun up and go about my buisness. This make more sense?
    A Michigan State Attorney General, a Michigan State Police Officer and a Michigan State Senator all say it's LEGAL.


    Please read this
    An AG opinion, the MSP and Senator Prusi stated that a persons with a CPL can carry a firearm openly in the exempted areas listed in MCL 750.234d.


    1)
    Opinion No. 7097 January 11, 2002
    …section 234d of the Michigan Penal Code, 1931 PA 328, MCL 750.1. That statute prohibits certain persons from possessing firearms on certain types of premises as follows: Sec. 234d (1) Except as otherwise provided in subsection (2), a person shall not possess a firearm on the premises of any of the following: a) A Bank. b) A church. c) A court. d) A theatre. e) A sports arena. f) A day care center. g) A hospital. h) An establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control act,…(2) This section does not apply to any of the following:…c) A person licensed by this state… to carry a concealed weapon. d) A person who possesses a firearm on the premises of an entity described in subsection (1) if that possession is with the permission of the owner or an agent of the owner of that entity. By its express terms, section 234d prohibits certain persons from carrying a firearm in the enumerated places but explicitly exempts from its prohibition “[a] person licensed by this state or another state to carry a concealed weapon.” Thus, any person licensed to carry a concealed pistol, including a private investigator, is exempt from the gun-free zone restrictions imposed by section 234d of the Penal Code and may therefore possess firearms while on the types of premises listed in that statute.


    2)
    Your analysis is correct. Non-CPL pistol free zones do not apply to CPL holders. The CPL pistol free zones only apply to CPL holders carrying a concealed pistol. Therefore, a CPL holder may openly carry a pistol in Michigan's pistol free zones.


    Sincerely,
    Sgt. Thomas Deasy, Michigan State Police
    Executive Resource Section, 714 S. Harrison Rd.
    East Lansing, MI 48823
    (517) 336-6441



    3)
    Dear Mr. M


    My office received your inquiry regarding the legality of a licensed CPL holder to open carry a firearm in "Pistol Free Zones." On Friday we received a copy of your correspondence, as Senator Carl Levin's Office referred your letter to my office because your concerns mainly pertain to state issues. As such, I am happy to assist you in this matter.


    My office has contacted the Michigan State Police legislative liaison and has received some answers to share with you. According to the liaison, it is legal to openly carry a firearm in a "Pistol Free Zone" if you are licensed a CPL holder. I was advised that your information was correct that MCL 28.425o and MCL 750-234d permit this activity. I was informed that there was no other additional relevant laws regarding this matter. Apparently, this is a loophole that has been recently identified and no legislation has been proposed to amend it.


    I hope this information serves helpful to you, and please do not hesitate to contact my office regarding any other state issue of your concern.


    Michael A Prusi, State Senator 38th District"


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    I stand corrected. Thanks for all the information. Not sure I would carry a gun in a school, but it is nice to know I can if I wish.

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    Thats why we're here.... info.

    I doubt I would ever need to go into a school armed either but that was not the question. The question was was it legal.

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    dougwg wrote:
    Thats why we're here.... info.

    I doubt I would ever need to go into a school armed either but that was not the question. The question was was it legal.
    Its good to know about though. You never know when you might end up on school property, even if you arent inside the school. For example, I was hanging out with friends yesterday. We decided to go play frisbee at a local park, which happens to be part of a school playground area. I was carrying concealed IWB, so I simply tucked in that part of my shirt, and remained legal.

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    Good point - we do go to the playground attached to the school frequently

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    theboyzmom wrote:
    Not sure I would carry a gun in a school, but it is nice to know I can if I wish.
    I do it frequently. Whenever I'm there for parent-teacher conferences, to attend school activities, to pick up or drop off my kids, etc., I'm always carrying. I even OC there on a regular basis.

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