Results 1 to 23 of 23

Thread: Legal vs "Socially Acceptable"

  1. #1
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Manhattan, Kansas, USA
    Posts
    309

    Post imported post

    Ok, I'm still pretty new to the whole OC thing, but I've been trying to broaden my horizons. I've already OC'd to a gas station not far from where I live and have had no problems, nor any problems around my home or properties (neighbors have no problem with it, or so they say).

    When I go into town however, I usually just lock my sidearm up in my glovebox - I don't really want to, and it makes me feel nervous doing so, but the alternative is to walk around with an open weapon on my belt and no permit. I've reviewed the law heavily around my region (Riley county) and the state law on it; there's nothing that says you can't do so. I'd do it just on legal grounds.

    The problem is the social situations. I won't lie, I've never been a 'social butterfly' and I've always kept to myself pretty much. I really don't know how people behave outside of my own world. I've never seen anyone but the police carrying weapons and I'm not so sure how people would react to a run-of-the-mill person carrying a sidearm. I have no idea how many people would freak out and call the police or if anyone would even notice and how they'd react if they did.

    Bear in mind that I'm not the kind of guy who likes to rub my rights in other people's faces. While I'm a firm believer that rights are inherent to every individual, I also know that my rights end at the other person's nose.

    So, how does one handle the social side of things? If someone tells you they don't like you carrying a weapon, how do you deescalate the situation? How much can you risk excersizing your rights that aren't "socially acceptable"?

    I bring this up because I was going out to lunch with my mother and she immediately got on my case about how "that would be wrong to people" and how it would be "more trouble than it's worth". I never would have expected that coming from her, given that she knows how things are in the country and never seems to give a damn what people think about her anyways.

    I've decided to just OC on my own property or at places where I'm well-known, and then get my CCW later for the little 'permit' ticket - just so I have something to give to the police should someone call them on me.

    And move to South Dakota in the future!

  2. #2
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    275

    Post imported post

    Walleye wrote:
    So, how does one handle the social side of things? If someone tells you they don't like you carrying a weapon, how do you deescalate the situation? How much can you risk excersizing your rights that aren't "socially acceptable"?
    It depends on whether I know the person or not. If I don't know them, it's usually something along the lines of "I don't like you openly stating your opinions on such a personal matter." If I know them I'm usually a little nicer about it, like "Well, that's your opinion, and your entitled to it, but it is my right, and I choose to carry to protect myself and others around me."

  3. #3
    Founder's Club Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    No longer in Alexandria, Egypt
    Posts
    2,798

    Post imported post

    The sad thing is that "Legal" and "Socially Acceptable" shouldn't be at odds with one another.Only in our upside down current society is that allowed to flourish.

    I'd tell your mom that while she may think it's socially unacceptable to HER, the fact is that the rest of society is cabable of drawing their own conclusions baed on fact, not emotion. And the fact is that it's not as socially "unacceptable" as she might think!

    The day that lying down and giving into criminals and tyrants becomes "socially acceptable" is the day we haul down the flag and close up the shop for we have failed.

  4. #4
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Manhattan, Kansas, USA
    Posts
    309

    Post imported post

    I'd tell your mom that while she may think it's socially unacceptable to HER, the fact is that the rest of society is cabable of drawing their own conclusions baed on fact, not emotion. And the fact is that it's not as socially "unacceptable" as she might think!
    The problem is I've already been over this with her. She's planted her feet into the ground in regards to the issue and refuses to discuss it anymore. She doesn't have a problem with me carrying on private property but it seems all bets are off when it's out in public.

    I think more than anything, she's concerned that if I get banned from places because I carry, it will mean she's also banned. I've since decided she's a lost cause on the issue.

    Anyways, as soon as I get my CCW I won't hesitate to carry my weapon at all times, whether she likes it or not. Until then I'll just have to take the risk of being a victim because of public ignorance.

  5. #5
    Campaign Veteran Dutch Uncle's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Virginia, USA
    Posts
    1,715

    Post imported post

    The term "not socially acceptable" usually means "making others uncomfortable". If that concern can trump exercising civil rights, then Rosa Parks should have given up her seat on the bus. Afterall, in the 50's, everyone knew the rules blacks and whites were supposed to live by, and going against the flow caused discomfort on BOTH sides at first, civil rights notwithstanding.

    Concealed carry is a privilege granted by the state, and is something I use when it suits me. Open carry is a right. If I decide it is the best way to protect myself or my family in a situation, I'll be damned if I'm going to let the delicate feelings of some other person get in my way.

    My wife at first thought OC was too "provocative" and in-you-face to be comfortable with, but in the last 2+ years we've been to scores of restaurants and stores together, with nary a peep from anyone, so it is now a non-issue for her.

  6. #6
    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Western Prince William County, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    5,849

    Post imported post

    At the risk of sounding a bit gauche, does your mother run your life? Are you in a position where you must bow to her wishes, such as living at her home free gratis?

    If not, very politely and respectfully, explain to her that while you are aware of her concerns and fears, you have decided to travel a different path when considering your safety and protection. You could also add that part of this consideration is to her benefit as well.

    Parents sometimes need to be taught from their children, too. I listen to my daughters quite often.. they are brilliant, well educated, and knowledgeable, so there is always room for me to learn from them.

    You love your mom and have every right to wish well for her. Weigh your options, consider your approach, and give this a thought.

    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

    Si vis pacem, para bellum.

    America First!

  7. #7
    Regular Member WARCHILD's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Corunna, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    1,772

    Post imported post

    My most common response to people wanting to know why I carry a gun; If someone has evil on their mind and they see my gun, they're going to look for easier prey, maybe someone like YOU! Most times you can see the realization pop into their heads. If further explanation is called for, in my case, I tell them I travel a lot to Flint, Mich. still listed at number 3 in violent crime in the U.S.. If they had to go there, wouldn't they feel safer being able to protect themselves and family. Other than that, I have never really had a hard core anti-gun person in public challenge me to any extent more than curiosity.

  8. #8
    Activist Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Reno, Nevada, USA
    Posts
    1,713

    Post imported post

    Nevermind.

  9. #9
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Manhattan, Kansas, USA
    Posts
    309

    Post imported post

    At the risk of sounding a bit gauche, does your mother run your life? Are you in a position where you must bow to her wishes, such as living at her home free gratis?
    Nope, I pretty much have free reign to do what I want - of course, within the law. Part of the problem is no state preemption for open carry without a permit, which sucks the big ones.

    Being brutally honest however, I do still live with my folks. Neither one has voiced concern or problems with me carrying up til the other day, which of course was in town.

    If not, very politely and respectfully, explain to her that while you are aware of her concerns and fears, you have decided to travel a different path when considering your safety and protection. You could also add that part of this consideration is to her benefit as well.
    It's not really about her, it also to some extent affects me. As I stated above, I don't want to go out and start rubbing it in people's faces. I also don't want to risk a confrontration with the PD without having some backup other than "there's no law against it." That's why I want to get a CCW before I start actively carrying in city areas. Then if I get harassed by the PD, I can say I have a permit to carry in addition to there being no law against open carry.

    My most common response to people wanting to know why I carry a gun; If someone has evil on their mind and they see my gun, they're going to look for easier prey, maybe someone like YOU! Most times you can see the realization pop into their heads. If further explanation is called for, in my case, I tell them I travel a lot to Flint, Mich. still listed at number 3 in violent crime in the U.S.. If they had to go there, wouldn't they feel safer being able to protect themselves and family. Other than that, I have never really had a hard core anti-gun person in public challenge me to any extent more than curiosity.
    I have gone all over this with her; she understands it, but she has more concern for people's feelings than her own safety. Yeah, doesn't make any sense but there you have it. Again, it is a concern of mine as well, believe it or not.

  10. #10
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Indiana, Pennsylvania, USA
    Posts
    674

    Post imported post

    Walleye wrote:
    I bring this up because I was going out to lunch with my mother and she immediately got on my case about how "that would be wrong to people" and how it would be "more trouble than it's worth". I never would have expected that coming from her, given that she knows how things are in the country and never seems to give a damn what people think about her anyways.
    If it makes you feel better, my grandmother is a New Yorker. On the topic of me carrying, her first comment was "You know it's illegal to do that on private property. You can only do it around your house, because anywhere else they can call the police and they'll put you away for it."

    Despite the fact that I was showing off my LTCF to her at the time, and I had already explained PA's laws...

    Edit:

    Actually, she's a transplant to NY. She grew up in PA, got married, moved to NY. She went on to tell me all about how her father always owned guns, and had guns in the house while she was growing up, but how he never carried one because it wasn't "proper" to do so. My eyes almost fell out from rolling that time.

  11. #11
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Manhattan, Kansas, USA
    Posts
    309

    Post imported post

    Glad to hear I wasn't the only one, Aran. Sometimes it seems like family members are the least understanding for some things. :?

  12. #12
    Campaign Veteran deepdiver's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Southeast, Missouri, USA
    Posts
    5,974

    Post imported post

    FWIW, while I am quite a bit older and haven't lived with my parents for about 20 years, I am very close with my parents and they both had some issues when I first started to carry. They first saw me carry for any period of time Memorial Day weekend 07. We were in KY so I was OCing a lot. My mother had a bit of a fit about OC and scaring people, etc. The same type of stuff you are describing. To assuage her concerns I CC'd in town mostly.

    Memorial Day weekend '08 back in KY and my fiancee and I rode with my parents. I OC'd everywhere. After a year of seeing my carry (we see each other every few months) and my slowly explaining to them why I think it is important, there was no more concern or consternation about it. Actually, my mother now wants a pistol for their home and has started to express some interest in carry laws and classes.

    It can take time. Some people will never change their minds but others may slowly come around when the reason for carrying is made personal and the rationale for the decision is discussed. I emailed news stories about self-defense shootings to my parents for most of last year. We discussed it many times in many fashions and really listened to each other's reasons and concerns. I think what finally made the difference was a very calm, quiet conversation we had at the end of last year when I asked them what was more important to them - that I survive a rogue mass shooter or robber or that the soccer mom standing next to me when the shooting starts is not offended. From that point there has not been any further negative comment about it.
    Bob Owens @ Bearing Arms (paraphrased): "These people aren't against violence; they're very much in favor of violence. They're against armed resistance."

  13. #13
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Manhattan, Kansas, USA
    Posts
    309

    Post imported post

    deepdiver, that's an excellent post. That's exactly what I'm speaking of. I've only been doing it for a couple of weeks so within due time I'm sure it will be second nature. The trick is to get people used to it without causing a load of ruckus...

  14. #14
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Hampton, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    495

    Post imported post

    Bravo_Sierra wrote:
    Walleye wrote:
    So, how does one handle the social side of things? If someone tells you they don't like you carrying a weapon, how do you deescalate the situation? How much can you risk excersizing your rights that aren't "socially acceptable"?
    I don't talk to people. I say "no thank you" and leave the area asap. If they follow me, they always wish they didn't. I'm not being a arm chair commando, I'm just stating the facts.

    I don't give a **** is someone doesn't like my gun, I live in the most violent city in the U.S. My gun is my constant companion that will never tell me no and will always back me up in a fight; and for that reason, "social acceptance" can kiss my ass.
    +2

  15. #15
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Walton County, Georgia, ,
    Posts
    475

    Post imported post


    Walleye wrote:
    Glad to hear I wasn't the only one, Aran. Sometimes it seems like family members are the least understanding for some things. :?
    I know how that is. I had a debate with my step-dad about CC vs OC. The conversation ended with him saying he'd bail me out of jail if I was caught CCing without a license but wouldn't get me out of jail for OCing, even if I was obeying the law while doing it. My mom is a lot more supportive though. She never had a gun in her house until I bought one. About 2 years later she bought her own pistol and has never given me grief about owning or carrying.

  16. #16
    Regular Member Eeyore's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    on the move
    Posts
    558

    Post imported post

    When I first started carrying, I was constantly getting the eye-roll from my wife and mother-in-law. Now, they hardly even notice, and they've even asked me "Are you carrying?" when we find ourselves in an unsavory area.

    I had a lot of concern about handling confrontations or being asked to leave when I first started carrying.Reading about other people's encounters has shown me how to behave (or not) and given me the verbal ammunition to deal with questioners and the police if necessary. IMHO, the biggest things are:

    1. Know the laws of your state (have you been reading/posting in the Kansas forum?) so you can be completely confident that you're doing nothing wrong. That confidence will come across in your bearing, and the other person will start to doubt themselves. I even printed excerpts from the state code in small type on business cards, which I carry in my wallet as a backup.
    2. Be extremely polite, courteous, and patient with the poor, ignorant folks who are questioning you. Unless they're a red-in-the-face anti-2A screamer, they honestly believe they're doing "the right thing." Respect them for that rather than trying to publically humiliate them. You know the rules and they don't--here's a chance to educate them. ("I know you're trying to do the right thing here, andit's great that you're doingthat. It's important that everyone follows the rules. The law in Kansas is...") Another good way to start your response might be: "I understand that you're trying to protect your [family/coworkers/customers/whatever]. I salute you for that, because that's what I'm trying to do,just in a different way.I'm not athreat to you, and I don't mean to be."
    3. Any time there's any kind of confrontation, it will draw people's attention. In that case, you are an ambassador for OC, and people will judge gun owners in general by your actions. Try to quietly and reasonably explain the laws (see #1 & #2). These forums are full of "zinger" responses designed to make you look clever and humiliate the other person; that just makes things more difficult. Don't be rude, and don'tever let them get your temper up.Swallowing your pride isjust another of the many responsibilities of gun ownership.
    4. Some people cannot/will not be reasoned with. They're either the anti-2A zealots, or just plain afraid.Either way it's best to justleave, quietly and with class.If necessary, you candeal with management or police later, after tempers have settledwhen everyone has time for reflection.

    Remember, good manners are always "socially acceptable."
    Guns don't kill people. Drivers on cell phones do.

  17. #17
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Spokane, Washington, USA
    Posts
    1,268

    Post imported post

    I was on the phone with my brother a week or so ago and we ended up discussing firearms and I mentioned I was waiting for my concealed license to arrive. Than this weekend I went over to my mothers place to help her move some things way too large for her, and almost the first thing out of her when I arrived was "So your brother told me you were getting a concealed carry permit."

    Oh boy... Well both my parents put in 20 years in the military. My mother sleeps with a shotgun a few feet away, and between the two of them they probably own 3-4 dozen different firearms.

    Of course that wasn't what I was thinking about. I immediatly was prepared to give my reasons for wanting to protect myself and those I cared for when she followed up with "I always thought I should have one, how hard is it to get?"

    I was caught off guard in a very good way

  18. #18
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Firestone, Colorado
    Posts
    1,189

    Post imported post

    BobCav wrote:
    The sad thing is that "Legal" and "Socially Acceptable" shouldn't be at odds with one another.Only in our upside down current society is that allowed to flourish.
    I completely disagree, Bob. The only way that there's ever going to be a perfect accordance between social acceptability and legality is if we outlaw everything that's socially unacceptable. In fact, I'd say that the freer the society the GREATER the gap will be between social acceptability and what's allowed by law.

  19. #19
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Firestone, Colorado
    Posts
    1,189

    Post imported post

    EXCELLENT answer, Eeyore.

  20. #20
    Regular Member thx997303's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Lehi, Utah, USA
    Posts
    2,716

    Post imported post

    When I started OCing, My wife was a little worried about it. That is until we went to one of Utah's OC meets.

    One day I was at work, and my Mother in law came over to our house. My wife was carrying her .380 and she kept telling my wife to "unload it" even though it was unloaded according to law.

    It was funny, because they have over 20 firearms in their home.

    My wife refused to change the way in which she was carrying, and her mom eventually shut up.

    On a side note, My father in law is all for carrying.

  21. #21
    Regular Member thx997303's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Lehi, Utah, USA
    Posts
    2,716

    Post imported post

    Double Tap

  22. #22
    Regular Member thx997303's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Lehi, Utah, USA
    Posts
    2,716

    Post imported post

    Select Fire.

  23. #23
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Manhattan, Kansas, USA
    Posts
    309

    Post imported post

    Great responses guys, it really helps.

    Eeyore, you really hit the nail on the head. That's why I want to be sure of what I'm doing before I 'light the fuse'. Part of the issue is KS legislature is such a damn mess.

    I really do want to show respect and educate, even if I'd be more comfortable if people would simply not notice. I've only openly carried outside of Manhattan city limits and while in my vehicle. I can find no local legislature that prohibits openly carrying without a permit while in a vehicle; trying to locate legislature for that at the state level is difficult, thus far I've been unable to find a statue that prohibits as such for the entire state. I want to get a CCW just to have that peace of mind due to the above.

    In terms of my mother, I think she's starting to come around. I haven't pressed the issue except where it invites response and she told me this evening that she should probably start carrying a weapon with her as well. This was of course after she realized that there's a lot of valuable items on our property which could easily attract attention - to which I replied "Why do you think I carry?".

    I'm not trying to be paranoid or to spread it but when you work with animals that can kill you quite easily and spook for no reason at all, you tend to learn to be on your guard at all times. That's part of why I didn't understand her dismay at first, given that she's worked with horses for almost all her life.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •