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Thread: Alexandria Waterfront Frestival

  1. #1
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    I saw a commercal for this event this morning and am finishing up my work day and decided to hit the website to see how much tickets would cost. Then I saw this posted.

    No carrying or possession of weapons or firearms

    Can an event sponsor restrict me from buying a ticket and attending even if the event is on public land?

    The website URL is http://www.waterfrontfestival.org/info.html

    Anyone have any information or knowledge about this event and if carry really is restricted?

    It would've been great to go see the concert but I won't go if I can't OC since the heat will probably be too much to comfortably CC even if I wanted to.

    -X

  2. #2
    Campaign Veteran roscoe13's Avatar
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    It's a city owned park, I think pre-emption should prevent them from banning weapons...

    From: http://www.alexandriava.gov/recreati...290#oronocobay

    Oronoco Bay Park Park Location: 100 Madison St.
    Park Area: 4.50 acres
    Park Usage: Festivals, picnicking, sitting areas, trails for walking, biking, jogging and exercise.
    This City park is located on the Potomac River at 701 North Lee Street, entered at either the Madison or Pendleton Streets entries or at the Wythe Street Plaza. The plaza entry is approximately in the center of the park and there is also a sidewalk entry with trees and turf area between the Sheet Metal Workers of America building and the United Way building.

    The park was once known as “Texaco Bay” and before that it was owned by Standard Oil Company which was owned by John D. Rockefeller. However, the City acquired the property in the early 1980's and developed the park into its present design. The name was changed to Oronoco Bay Park. Historically, the Alexandria area was inhabited by Indians when Captain John Smith sailed up the Potomac in the mid 17th Century.

    The park today is famous for the annual “Red Cross Waterfront Festival” which is the largest Red Cross fund raiser in the United States. The park also has many other festivals and is often rented to out to private concerns for their events as well. Each park entry is noted for its shrub and flower bed display, area lighting and irrigation system. You will find trees throughout the park providing a passive park atmosphere.

    This park is part of the linear park system along the Potomac. People can walk, jog or bike along the river path and enjoy the many sitting and picnic areas. There are wooden sun decks out into the river and a wooden boardwalk path that connects the path to the point where the bay and river meet near the Rowing Facility building.
    Oronoco Bay Park Rental Information
    Amenities: amphitheater, parking, picnic areas, power supply, seating, trails, waterfronts.

    Park Rentals[*]If multi-use field is desired, renter must obtain a Field Permit.[/list]Hours of Operation (April to October):
    • Monday - Friday: 8:00 am - 8:00 pm
    • Saturday - Sunday: 8:00 am - 8:00 pm
    Hours of Operation (November to March):
    • Saturday - Sunday: 10:00 am - 5:00 pm
    "The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that's good." - George Washington

  3. #3
    Founder's Club Member - Moderator ed's Avatar
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    I just sent the mayor and council an e-mail telling them that banning citizens from carrying firearms legally is a violation of the law and can result in legal action.

    Ed

    Thank you for contacting the City of Alexandria.
    Your message has been forwarded to the appropriate City staff, who will reply to you within three business days. If you do not receive a response within this timeframe, please contact Director of Citizen Assistance Rose Williams Boyd at rose.boyd@alexandriava.gov or call the Citizen Assistance Office at 703-838-4800.

    A copy of the message you submitted appears below.
    Time: [Fri Jun 13, 2008 16:57:00]IP Address: [72.165.83.66]
    Issue Type:
    Mayor, Vice Mayor, and Council Members
    First Name:
    ed
    Subject:
    Alexandria waterfront festival
    Comments:
    http://www.waterfrontfestival.org/info.html

    Banning citizens in the
    state of Virginia from legally carrying firearms on public grounds is a
    violation of the law and legal action can be taken.
    Just FYI.
    Thanks.

    Attachment:

    Carry On.

    Ed

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    Sheriff wrote:
    roscoe13 wrote:
    It's a city owned park, I think pre-emption should prevent them from banning weapons...
    If the Red Cross has rented the park for the entire weekend, pre-emption may not apply.
    I don't know much about pre-emption exceptions, why might it not apply?

  5. #5
    Campaign Veteran roscoe13's Avatar
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    Sheriff wrote:
    roscoe13 wrote:
    It's a city owned park, I think pre-emption should prevent them from banning weapons...
    If the Red Cross has rented the park for the entire weekend, pre-emption may not apply.
    If that were true, pre-emption sould be completely meaningless, as a locality that didn't want to comply could just lease the whole community to a private management company. Regardless of who it's rented to, it's still a city park...
    "The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that's good." - George Washington

  6. #6
    Regular Member doug23838's Avatar
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    roscoe13 wrote:
    Sheriff wrote:
    roscoe13 wrote:
    It's a city owned park, I think pre-emption should prevent them from banning weapons...
    If the Red Cross has rented the park for the entire weekend, pre-emption may not apply.
    If that were true, pre-emption sould be completely meaningless, as a locality that didn't want to comply could just lease the whole community to a private management company. Regardless of who it's rented to, it's still a city park...
    IANAL, however I agree with roscoe. Right and title to the park cannot be conveyed to a leasee in such a way that they could conduct an event inconsistent with the law.

    For example the City could not lease a park to an organization that would hold an event for whites only. Imagine the uproar. So, I don't see how they could lease the park and then establish their own rules.

    This is precisely the same beef I have with the City of Richmond and the organization that holds events in some Richmond parks.



  7. #7
    Founder's Club Member Tess's Avatar
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    I"ll be at the OCDO dinner on Saturday, and probably the Dale City Gun Show on Sunday.

    But I found this announcement for July 12th. Anybody down for this?

    At 7:30 pm, the ever-gun-friendly Mayor Euille will be speaking </sarcasm>
    Laws alone can not secure freedom of expression; in order that every man present his views without penalty there must be spirit of tolerance in the entire population. -Albert Einstein

  8. #8
    Campaign Veteran roscoe13's Avatar
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    Sheriff wrote:
    I just don't know. I am taking a guess at why the Red Cross feels comfortable in banning weapons.

    At the same time, out of curiosity,I have just discovered firearms are banned in all our local county parks according to their web page.





    Q:
    Is hunting allowed at Albemarle County parks?

    A:
    Hunting is strictly prohibited at all County parks. No firearms or weapons of any type are allowed.
    That regulation is illegal and un-enforceable...
    "The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that's good." - George Washington

  9. #9
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    I rode my bike past this festival site this afternoon; they have blocked off several sections of public street and park and have a fence around it to keep people out. It doesn't look like any private land to me. It includes the railroad spur that runs past the powerplant down to the warehouse at the end of Union St., for those familiar with the area.

    Given Alexandria government's anti-gun history, they just might be trying to see if they can get away with this, and might try to ignore your letters and call your bluff. We'll see how that works out.

    Speaking of Old Towne, I spotted a real live unicorn walking down Union St. about two weeks ago on a Saturday. Guy in about his 20's, neatly trimmed goatee and sunglasses with his girlfriend. Which one of you was it? Fess up!

  10. #10
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    Sheriff wrote:
    I just don't know. I am taking a guess at why the Red Cross feels comfortable in banning weapons.

    At the same time, out of curiosity,I have just discovered firearms are banned in all our local county parks according to their web page.

    Q:
    Is hunting allowed at Albemarle County parks?

    A:
    Hunting is strictly prohibited at all County parks. No firearms or weapons of any type are allowed.
    Well, there ya go, Sheriff. Back into law enforcement.

    Go get 'em. Make them take down that offending web-page info. Your reference is VA Code 15.2-915.

    § 15.2-915. Control of firearms; applicability to authorities and local governmental agencies.

    A. No locality shall adopt or enforce any ordinance, resolution or motion, as permitted by § 15.2-1425, and no agent of such locality shall take any administrative action, governing the purchase, possession, transfer, ownership, carrying, storage or transporting of firearms, ammunition, or components or combination thereof other than those expressly authorized by statute. For purposes of this section, a statute that does not refer to firearms, ammunition, or components or combination thereof, shall not be construed to provide express authorization...
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  11. #11
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    Sheriff wrote:
    Citizen, I plan to call them Monday. I suspect they are going to tell me I am innterpreting their Q&A wrong. They might claim that no weapons or firearms are allowed "while hunting." But it clearly makes one believe that no firearms or weapons are allowed at all... period.

    Let you know how the call goes.
    What the hell?? You're supposed to catch the damn deer or bear with your bare hands? Awfully athletic bunch they've got around there.

    "My pinky finger is .308 and deadly at close range!!"

    Have fun. Keep us up to date with progress reports and report the outcome to Virginia Citizens Defense League.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  12. #12
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    Sheriff wrote:
    roscoe13 wrote:
    It's a city owned park, I think pre-emption should prevent them from banning weapons...
    If the Red Cross has rented the park for the entire weekend, pre-emption may not apply.
    Didn't Mike Stollenwerk win a lawsuit against the City of Richmond on a similar point? Or was that maybe just a FOIA enforcement?
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  13. #13
    Newbie W.E.G.'s Avatar
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    Haven't we had this debate here recently?

    What authority does any property-holder have to lease any right greater than that which the property-holder possesses?

    Suppose the lessee decided to prohibit persons who don't speak English from attending?

    Moreover, the statute cited above specifically forbids the city from enacting any rule regarding carrying firearms.

    This is exactly why we call such places PUBLIC parks.
    Persons who are not violating any enforceable law cannot be excluded from the park.

  14. #14
    Founder's Club Member Tess's Avatar
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    W.E.G. wrote:
    Haven't we had this debate here recently?

    What authority does any property-holder have to lease any right greater than that which the property-holder possesses?

    Suppose the lessee decided to prohibit persons who don't speak English from attending?

    Moreover, the statute cited above specifically forbids the city from enacting any rule regarding carrying firearms.

    This is exactly why we call such places PUBLIC parks.
    Persons who are not violating any enforceable law cannot be excluded from the park.
    Not exactly true. He might prevail in court, but he may get there anyway, by way of the jail. See the Chet Szymecki story.

    Remember, you may not be convicted, but you can almost always be charged, and the experience may not be pleasant.
    Laws alone can not secure freedom of expression; in order that every man present his views without penalty there must be spirit of tolerance in the entire population. -Albert Einstein

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    Founder's Club Member - Moderator ed's Avatar
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    In a message dated 6/14/2008 6:38:16 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, FlyboyEd writes:

    Thanks. They have been contacted as well. The city was contacted because of it being held on public land. The red cross does not own the land so ultimately, the responsibility belongs to the city.


    In a message dated 6/13/2008 11:01:43 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, Justin.Wilson@alexandriava.gov writes:
    Mr. Levine,

    The Waterfront Festival is a Red Cross event, not a City of Alexandria event. I encourage you to contact them regarding your concerns.

    Thanks. Have a good weekend.


    ----
    Justin M. Wilson, Member
    Alexandria City Council
    Office: 703.838.4500
    Home: 703.299.1576
    justin.wilson@alexandriava.gov


    Carry On.

    Ed

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  16. #16
    Founder's Club Member - Moderator ed's Avatar
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    Also.. on their RULES page they also list things like.. keep hydrated and wear sunscreen.

    So.. some of you guys carry and I WONT WEAR SUNSCREEN.. and lets make sure we get treated the same!
    Carry On.

    Ed

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  17. #17
    Founder's Club Member Tess's Avatar
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    I'm not sure what frosts me more - the city thinking it can change rules at will, particularly by renting to the Red Cross, or the council member abdicating his responsibility to citizens by passing the buck to someone else.

    I don't know what it is about this particular event, whether it's because we already know Alexandria is resistant to the state law or whether it's because I know the mayor is a Bloomberg wannabe or what, but I find myself wanting to be a test case for this. Unfortunately, given family situation and other considerations, I cannot do so this week.

    I'm incensed, ready, and hobbled. Many expletives are waiting to vent. By dinner tonight I hope to have translated them into speech appropriate for an OCDO dinner.
    Laws alone can not secure freedom of expression; in order that every man present his views without penalty there must be spirit of tolerance in the entire population. -Albert Einstein

  18. #18
    Founder's Club Member - Moderator ed's Avatar
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    Tess wrote:
    <snip>I find myself wanting to be a test case for this. Unfortunately, given family situation and other considerations, I cannot do so<snip>
    me too
    Carry On.

    Ed

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    I know that I was the fastest draw on the block with my finger pistol when I was a kid. I OCd with it practically since birth.

    The hunting reg is clearly out. The Red Cross event is another story. While the statute says "owner", the legal meaning of the word is not the literal meaning. If you lease, rent, buy with a loan, or otherwise compensate the owner of a property for its use, you have the same legal rights as an "owner" unless your contract with the land owner retains that right to the land owner.

    None of us would brook the bank saying that we couldn't carry in our car, house, or apartment, event though it's owned by the bank or leasing agent. The public agencies have the same right to lease properties. The lessee has the same rights as you in your home.

    I think the operative clause in a lease is "for their exclusive use". If that phrase is in the lease, then they can ban anything they like, as long as it isn't a recognized discrimination, race, religion, ability, etc. In effect, for the term of the lease, the land is no longer public property.

    Cal

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    caltain wrote:
    I know that I was the fastest draw on the block with my finger pistol when I was a kid. I OCd with it practically since birth.

    The hunting reg is clearly out. The Red Cross event is another story. While the statute says "owner", the legal meaning of the word is not the literal meaning. If you lease, rent, buy with a loan, or otherwise compensate the owner of a property for its use, you have the same legal rights as an "owner" unless your contract with the land owner retains that right to the land owner.

    None of us would brook the bank saying that we couldn't carry in our car, house, or apartment, event though it's owned by the bank or leasing agent. The public agencies have the same right to lease properties. The lessee has the same rights as you in your home.

    I think the operative clause in a lease is "for their exclusive use". If that phrase is in the lease, then they can ban anything they like, as long as it isn't a recognized discrimination, race, religion, ability, etc. In effect, for the term of the lease, the land is no longer public property.

    Cal

    I understand 100% what you are saying. It does seem weird that a private organization can become the only "owner" of public land, even if for a day. Aren't we all owners as tax payers who pay for parks ?

  21. #21
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    I think preemption strictly trumps these rules. There are 2 principles at play in our favor.

    1: By statute, 15.2-915 prohibits (generally) local firearms ordinance enforcement.

    2: Virginia is a "Dillon rule" state meaning that the localities are only permitted to enact and enforce those laws, ordinances and regulations that the Commonwealth permits them to enact and enforce.

    For example, Their rules could say something like: Due to the high rate of sickle cell anemia among African Americanes, those persons who are African Americanes or have some African American ancestryare strictly prohibited from attending the festival.

    While Alexandria city might be stupid enough to enact suchrules for the festival the Commonwealth having been duly spanked in federal court, more than once, is not.

    The same principle applies to the no weapons policy. No matter what reasoning they try to attach to it, since they don't have authority to ban weapons, they cannot grant that authority on city lands.

    I called them last year andsaid "hey, my wife carries agun, howshould she handle the bagsearch?" They were apoplectic. Eventually I was speaking with some PD SGT. I pushed them and said "no, she won't leave it at home, it's her decision to carry it, not yours. Are you leaving your gun at home Sergeant? "No"... Well, 15.2-915 says no local firearms ordinances. Then I got the why do you need to carry a gun interview.

    I started with, first of all, I'm asking for my wife, not me. Second of all, that's none of your business, third, why do you carry a gun, UK police don't need them and neither do you. <silence> "well, we're asking you not to bring guns"

    No, but thanks for the info.





  22. #22
    Regular Member Marco's Avatar
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    I don't plan on attending but I have sent a email and called regarding this matter.

    Your reply to another citizen is unsatisfactory.

    Mr.XXXXX

    The Waterfront Festival is a Red Cross event, not a City of Alexandria event. I encourage you to contact them regarding your concerns.

    Thanks. Have a good weekend.


    ----
    Justin M. Wilson, Member
    Alexandria City Council
    Office: 703.838.4500
    Home: 703.299.1576
    justin.wilson@alexandriava.gov






    The Red Cross doesn't own the city streets, it is public land.
    This firearm ban is illegal.
    The Alexandria PD and any security officers/personnel should be informed that legally armed citizens should not be harassed in any way.

    You may wish to research the lawsuit filed by legally armed citizen
    (Chet Szymecki) against another VA city and police dept.


    Sincerely,

    M.


    [line]
    I alsosent my msg tothe Mayor.

    I will appraise if/when they reply.

    If you think like a Statist, act like one, or back some, you've given up on freedom and have gone over to the dark side.
    The easiest ex. but probably the most difficult to grasp for gun owners is that fool permission slip so many of you have, especially if you show it off with pride. You should recognize it as an embarrassment, an infringement, a travesty and an affront to a free person.


    ~Alan Korwin

  23. #23
    Founder's Club Member Tess's Avatar
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    I, too, sent an e-mail to Mr. Wilson. I've PM'd Ed with the contents, and will update as I hear anything. I'm pissed not only at the response, but at the council member's willingness to abdicate his responsibility to citizens.
    Laws alone can not secure freedom of expression; in order that every man present his views without penalty there must be spirit of tolerance in the entire population. -Albert Einstein

  24. #24
    Founder's Club Member Tess's Avatar
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    And when did the Red Cross become a national security agency? They're treating everyone as subjects to be searched????

    The more I think about this, the more incensed I become.
    Laws alone can not secure freedom of expression; in order that every man present his views without penalty there must be spirit of tolerance in the entire population. -Albert Einstein

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    So if we open carry here, we have merely violated Red Cross rules, according to the City of Alexandria.

    Although BS, it would be interesting to see how THAT would play out.

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