Confiscation of citizens' firearms by military would be an illegal activity

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Assuming SCOTUS rules as we expect that the 2A protects an individual RKBA, I think that the constitutional issue of mass seizing firearms from the populace being a lawful order is pretty much answered. Taking posse comitatus with such a ruling and I don't think there is any way an argument that such an order is lawful can be made. On the other hand, I don't think that in any way precludes such an attempt on a localized basis in the name of martial law or supposed domestic terrorism.

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The events I've witnessed since becoming an adult, including Waco and of course Katrina, seem to indicate that when the chips are down, those in power will throw the constitution and the law right out the window and do whatever they can get away with. Dealing with the consequences is something they either don't think they'll have to do, or figure they can deal with later.

Having a posse comitatus law, a constitutional ammendment, and a USSC ruling to back them up are a good start to defend against this, but they are not good enough.

The ultimate goal for us should be to a have a society in which the common man holds this government behavior to be unthinkable, and who firmly believes in individual liberty being not only more important than a compelling state interest, but to be itself a compelling state interest, the most important of them all. In an emergency, respecting the rights of individuals and enlisting their help is the best course, and liberty is the mark of civilization, which is what is at stake.

Right now most people, including troops, believe that when there's an emergency of some sort, it's the state's job to handle it, and that emergencies make it okay to temporarily disregard rights and liberties. They get this idea from generations of public schooling andpopular culture. It will be an uphill struggle to reverse this thinking, but I think it's possible.

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Tomahawk wrote:

SNIP The ultimate goal for us should be to a have a society in which the common man holds this government behavior to be unthinkable, and who firmly believes in individual liberty being not only more important than a compelling state interest, but to be itself a compelling state interest, the most important of them all. In an emergency, respecting the rights of individuals and enlisting their help is the best course, and liberty is the mark of civilization, which is what is at stake.

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The new battle cry!!

"Liberty is the compelling state interest!"

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Citizen wrote:

Tomahawk wrote:

SNIP The ultimate goal for us should be to a have a society in which the common man holds this government behavior to be unthinkable, and who firmly believes in individual liberty being not only more important than a compelling state interest, but to be itself a compelling state interest, the most important of them all. In an emergency, respecting the rights of individuals and enlisting their help is the best course, and liberty is the mark of civilization, which is what is at stake.

Click to expand...

The new battle cry!!

"Liberty is the compelling state interest!"

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Let me expand a bit farther and say that the whole purpose for splitting from the crown and forming our own government is the protection of our rights; it even says so in the Declaration of Independence.

The idea is that if you take a bunch of mostly moral, rational individuals like say, American colonists, and protect their freedom, the prosperity and security of the nation will take care of itself.

This is why we had no police forces in the beginning, and not even a standing army until after WWII. It's why we don't need a huge government beauracracy to protect us from terrorists in train stations and airplanes, or to tap our phones, or to set energy policy, or any of this stuff. We are adults and if left free to do so, we'll handle it. If I owned my own airline and was able to set my own rules for security of my airplanes, I can guarantee there will be no hijackings, and it won't cost the taxpayers a dime.

All we should have is a government that protects my freedom, and we will take care of our own security and work hard to make this a prosperous country. We will protect the state as it protect us, and for the most part everybody wins.

Instead, we have a government that is obessed with planning the future of the nation, and maintaining it's own control. It wants to replace freedom with central planning and central control, and somehow thinks this will result in a more prosperous state. In emergencies, it moves quickly to assume more power and strip us of more freedom.

The result will be a less prosperous state, less productive and more vulnerable to security threats, with a brainwashed populace who thinks it's okay for troops or police to confiscate weapons or anything else when the next hurricane strikes.

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I'll second what TH has said. Essentially, the government will not make the mistake again of issueing "unlawful" orders. We have one federal law enforcement agency (BATFE) devoted to violating the Second Amendment, and another (DEA) devoted to violating the Tenth Amendment, and both are found to be "lawful" in their duties. Once unconstitutional actions are made "legal", all debate ceases in the head of the average American.

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would it be illegal? yes.

would it be in direct contradiction to the oath that they swore upon enlistment? yes.

is it likely to happen? unfortunately, yes.



I will say this here and now. God forbid the day ever comes when I must use my gun in self defense, but if that day ever came, I would. I would defend myself, my family, and my freedom against ANY threat.

Honestly, however, I really don't believe that it would be the US military ( at least not at first) who would be issued this tyrannical order. at first, the order would be issued to state and local LEO's, IMO.

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It is worse. http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum4/12397.html announces another attempt to pass an anti-gun bill under the guise of reasonable regulation. It may be defeated but will rise again and again and again and again until the forces of evil have another tool.

When freedom is suppressed dead then it will not rise again for this nation.

And do not forget who the tools of this oppressive state are, they are your neighbors and brothers and friends even, "Chust followink orrrders."

Don't forget who are the leaders that use 'reasonable regulation' as their ricebowl, that teach hide it rather than offend the dull majority. Wouldn't want to offend them.

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Doug Huffman wrote:

It is worse. http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum4/12397.html announces another attempt to pass an anti-gun bill under the guise of reasonable regulation. It may be defeated but will rise again and again and again and again until the forces of evil have another tool.

When freedom is suppressed dead then it will not rise again for this nation.

And do not forget who the tools of this oppressive state are, they are your neighbors and brothers and friends even, "Chust followink orrrders."

Don't forget who are the leaders that use 'reasonable regulation' as their ricebowl, that teach hide it rather than offend the dull majority. Wouldn't want to offend them.

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Some years ago (early 90's), I did quite a bit of writing as part of an Issues group, both through chat rooms and through letters to local newpapers - which quite a few were published. I also posted outside my cube from time to time little one pagers I came up with to spark discussion and thought. Here area fewthat seem to be right up the alley of this discussion.

"When Americans arrive at a point in their history of having trust in their government, traditional American liberty will be lost.. forever."

"Never trust those who blindly and fervently place their faith and trust in Government. They will become the willing pawns of Evil."

"A government which does not trust its citizens with arms, is a government which itself, is not to be trusted."

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Yes itwould be anillegal and an unlawful order. But we do not have the people with balls enough to stand against these kind of orders in the military. Note: I am a veteran and am now in reserve status. They have even changed the wording of "the Creed" from "I will obey all lawful order's"to "I will obey all orders of those appointed over me". Just like we do not have Police with enough balls to recognize the rights of citizens. Having served in a military police detachment I now what they would do if told to. You would not like the answer, so don't ask. The constitution to these people is just a generalidea. To be changed at there conveniences. I have been reading these forums for som time now. It really is funny how much of nothing is said in them. But your qeustion was the best I have read.

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Well, that was just a little........umm........offensive. There are quite a few Law enforcement officers and past and present military personel on here, and every one of us has the balls, figuratively of course for the women here, to stand up to that kind of crap.

And the MPs have free roam when it comes to a lot of things. As most of us know, when on a military base, they do not have to have a reason to search you, it's posted at most entrances. So I don't really know what my point was there. ADD, and there's a good show on.

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thx997303 wrote:

Well, that was just a little........umm........offensive. There are quite a few Law enforcement officers and past and present military personel on here, and every one of us has the balls, figuratively of course for the women here, to stand up to that kind of crap.

And the MPs have free roam when it comes to a lot of things. As most of us know, when on a military base, they do not have to have a reason to search you, it's posted at most entrances. So I don't really know what my point was there. ADD, and there's a good show on.

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Good, thats what I wanted to hear. I serve ina MP unit. I didn't say I was one. You have to turn the pages to see how it reads Didn't mean to get you all fired up. But if in factwhat you say is true'then we would not be where we are atwith gun laws "shall not be infringed". Dose itget any planner than that?

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Well, the issue is that we are only about 7,500 strong, so unfortunately we don't have a large enough membership to really influence too much.

But we sure as hell try.

Take a look at the press coverage we've been getting lately.

We're making progress. And we will keep fighting for it.

http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum63/12144.html

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thx997303 wrote:

Well, the issue is that we are only about 7,500 strong, so unfortunately we don't have a large enough membership to really influence too much.

But we sure as hell try.

Take a look at the press coverage we've been getting lately.

We're making progress. And we will keep fighting for it.

http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum63/12144.html

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Good show. I am sorry for the way I came across. I do like this site. You all are in my prayers. Never straight, but always forward.

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I believe it is inevitable, that some day the tragedy off disarmament will come to fruition. The desire to see an unarmed society in these United States is moving forward and every dummy is on board the fast train to self internment. There really is no since in beating yourself up about it. I would prefer burning a bridge (in this case) than crossing that bridge in the first place.



I personally believe many in the military would not hesitate to carry out an order to disarm the public, but only in a hero capacity. For instance; if they were told it was for some emergency, martial law or national emergency. Most would not hesitate to follow an order under this pretence. With the understanding it is a temporary instance; I think they would do it. But like a temporary tax it would be here to stay. I have met a few high caliber individuals in the military, but some also left me with a feeling they were all “pop and no kick”. I really hope some are better than this and would not allow themselves and branch of service to be so discredited. I am positive there is a specific group of people that would think it the icing on the cake to use our military in this way (I can hear them cackling now).



I personally would object up until, during, and after the court martial, if faced with this dilemma. My views and interpretation of right and wrong, the law of the land and what it means to be an American, seem to irritate a lot of people who live in some democracy somewhere around my Republic.

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thx997303 wrote:

Well, the issue is that we are only about 7,500 strong, so unfortunately we don't have a large enough membership to really influence too much.

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Don't sell yourself short. We have tremendous influence.

We completely bypass the anti-gun media and take our freedom message to the streets.

Your personal conversation witha strangerwho inquires about your OC will have a far greater impact thana year's worth of NRA magazines.

You are REAL to thatperson. The "reality" created by the media will start to dissolve as you talk to your newest contact. Watch their eyes; you can see it happen.



"Liberty is the compelling state interest."

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Well said, I didn't mean we aren't effective, I meant that as a political force, we as an organization are far from a majority.

Different tactics. We don't need a majority, we need to change the minds of the majority.

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thx997303 wrote:

Well said, I didn't mean we aren't effective, I meant that as a political force, we as an organization are far from a majority.

Different tactics. We don't need a majority, we need to change the minds of the majority.

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I didn't take it that way.

I think we're on the same page as far as a majority goes, too.

I'm still chewing on the idea of gun owners coming out of the closet. I'd never thought about causing that effect on an individual through OC; but, it certainly seems likely.

There is also a bit of a domino effect. I recall a young woman opposed to firearms. Without getting into much discussion with her at all, I just replied to her query about why I carried.It wasnot too long laterthat I heard her promote the 2A to a 3rd person. And this is just one that I actually heard. I wonder how many we don't hear?

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I love the domino effect, if that happens with everyone we talk to, then we will go far.

Another thing is the way we are perceived, I was renting a movie from a redbox yesterday, and I had a code for a free rental, The people behind me had noticed my sidearm and were hanging back a little.

When I finished renting my video I wrote the code down, turned around and asked who was renting a movie, nobody said anything, but I turned to the person directly behind me and handed them the code, said it would get them a free rental, and when they were done with it, make sure they pass it to the next person in line, then when everyone thanked me, I waved, bid everyone there a good day and left.

That was 6 people. All who now have the positive experience of having a Man with a gun give them a free movie rental.

Maybe not a big thing, but couldn't hurt either.

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thx997303 wrote:

I love the domino effect, if that happens with everyone we talk to, then we will go far.

Another thing is the way we are perceived, I was renting a movie from a redbox yesterday, and I had a code for a free rental, The people behind me had noticed my sidearm and were hanging back a little.

When I finished renting my video I wrote the code down, turned around and asked who was renting a movie, nobody said anything, but I turned to the person directly behind me and handed them the code, said it would get them a free rental, and when they were done with it, make sure they pass it to the next person in line, then when everyone thanked me, I waved, bid everyone there a good day and left.

That was 6 people. All who now have the positive experience of having a Man with a gun give them a free movie rental.

Maybe not a big thing, but couldn't hurt either.

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You promoted 2A and the movie business. I wonder how muchtheir rental volume will go up later as these people discover, havinggotten a little free,that they like the Red Box even more.

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Yeah, you know, since the code was given to me by someone else, I wonder where the heck you get these codes. Sheesh.