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Thread: Trip planned to Pennsylvania

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Planning on being in Pa. around the 4th of July to visit a friend.
    I have valid Va, CHP. My friend while well schooled, does not have a Pa. permit.

    While I have become fairly cognizant of Pa. laws regarding OC and CC, I do have a few points that warrant clarification:

    1) Apparently all transfers of handguns require involment of a FFL.
    As I wish to make a gift of a 9mm pistol to him, I will follow the letter of the law. That said, am I "transferring" the weapon to him if he OCs a pistol that I "loan" him while shopping and dining? I understand that he cannot carry in a vehicle w/o permit.

    2) What is the present standard in Philadelphia - confused by seemingly conflicting reports.

    3) What statutes applying to carrying where alcohol is served.

    4) Anything else that you think will help me will be appreciated.
    I have downloaded a copy of Your Pennsylvania Gun Rights
    and have read fairly extensively on the Pa. section of OCDO.

    Yata hey

    PS - Sorry about the fragmented structure - merely posting did it and it will not correct through editing.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    TITLE 18
    PA CRIMES CODES







    §6115. Loans on, or Lending or Giving Firearms Prohibited.

    (a) Offense defined.—No person shall make any loan secured by mortgage, deposit or pledge of a firearm, nor, except as pro­vided in subsection (b), shall any person lend or give a firearm to another or otherwise deliver a firearm contrary to the provisions of this subchapter.

    (b) Exception.—

    1) Subsection (a) shall not apply if any of the following apply:


    i) The person who receives the firearm is licensed to carry a firearm under section 6109 (relating to licenses).

    ii) The person who receives the firearm is exempt from licensing.

    (iii) The person who receives the firearm is engaged in a hunter safety program certified by the Pennsylvania Game Commission or a firearm training program or competition sanctioned or approved by the National Rifle Association

    iv) The person who receives the firearm meets all of the following

    A) Is under 18 years of age.


    B) Pursuant to section 6110.1 (relating to possession of firearm by minor) is under the supervision, guidance and instruc­tion (if a responsible individual who.

    I) is ‘21 years of age or older; and

    II) is not prohibited from owning or possessing a firearm tinder section 6105 (relating to persons not to possess, use, man­ufacture, control, sell or transfer firearms)]

    v) The person who receives the firearm is lawfully hunting or trapping and is in compliance with the provisions of Title 34 (relating to game)

    (vi) A bank or other chartered lending institution is able to adequately secure firearms in its possession.

    (2) Nothing in this section shall be construed to prohibit the transfer of a firearm under 20 Pa CS. Ch. 21 (relating to inter­state succession) or by bequest if the individual receiving the firearm is not precluded from owning or possessing a firearm under section 6105

    (3) Nothing in this section shall be construed to prohibit the loaning or giving of a firearm to another in one’s dwelling or place of business if the firearm is retained within the dwelling or place of business.

    (Repealed and added by L 1995, Spec. Sess 1, Act 17(8), eff 10/11/95)



    There are no statutes regarding carry where alcohol is served or consumed, but common senseshould tell you that alcohol and gunpowder may not mix well.





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    Appreciate the specific reference/cite regarding loaning a weapon. We will just wait until transfer is approved - hopefully the day after my arrival.

    I do not drink alcohol while carrying, ever. Virginia only permits OC in establishments licensed for consumption on premises - no CC - go figure.

    snip "(3) Nothing in this section shall be construed to prohibit the loaning or giving of a firearm to another in one’s dwelling or place of business if the firearm is retained within the dwelling or place of business." This simplifys the initial problem.

    Yata hey

    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    1) As stated by law, you cannot loan him a firearm unless he has an LTCF. Likewise, if you are transferring ownership, you have to use an FFL or the Sheriff's Office.

    2) Carrying in Philadelphia, either openly or concealed, requires the bearer to possess either an LTCF or a license/permit recognized by Pennsylvania.

    3) No restrictions on carrying in places where alcohol is served or sold. Carry concealed or carry openly - either is legal. Yes, you can also drink.

    4) From one Commonwealth to another - yata hey!

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    Statkowski wrote:
    From one Commonwealth to another - yata hey!
    Indeed it is brother! If not today, then tomarrow.

    Yata hey
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    I take it your going to be in the Phila area that weekend?
    We are having a bar-b-q at my place the 5th. Many PAFOA/OCDO members attending.

    YOUR INVITED!

    We are 2 hours NW of Phila.



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    Pa. Patriot wrote:
    I take it your going to be in the Phila area that weekend?
    We are having a bar-b-q at my place the 5th. Many PAFOA/OCDO members attending.

    YOUR INVITED!

    We are 2 hours NW of Phila.

    Arriving in Lock Haven, Pa. late 7/2. We are planning to visit Gettysburg, probably on the 3rd. Other than that I do not know what our agenda might be yet. We go back to grade school, last saw him at HS reunion over twenty years ago. A strong proponent of the 2nd Amenment, he is nevertheless new to the carry scene.

    It would be fantastic to meet and talk with brethern from Pennsylvania. Thanks for the generous invitation. I will PM you with contact information and hope that the developing itinerary allows for a meet up.

    PS - Is a barbecue gun required?

    Yata hey
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Grapeshot wrote:
    Planning on being in Pa. around the 4th of July to visit a friend.
    I have valid Va, CHP. My friend while well schooled, does not have a Pa. permit.

    While I have become fairly cognizant of Pa. laws regarding OC and CC, I do have a few points that warrant clarification:

    1) Apparently all transfers of handguns require involment of a FFL.
    As I wish to make a gift of a 9mm pistol to him, I will follow the letter of the law. That said, am I "transferring" the weapon to him if he OCs a pistol that I "loan" him while shopping and dining? I understand that he cannot carry in a vehicle w/o permit.

    2) What is the present standard in Philadelphia - confused by seemingly conflicting reports.

    3) What statutes applying to carrying where alcohol is served.

    4) Anything else that you think will help me will be appreciated.
    I have downloaded a copy of Your Pennsylvania Gun Rights
    and have read fairly extensively on the Pa. section of OCDO.

    Yata hey

    PS - Sorry about the fragmented structure - merely posting did it and it will not correct through editing.
    To transfer a handgun from a VA resident to a PA resident - hmm - I wonder if the VA resident can lawfully transport the gun across state lines to a Sheriff or FFL to do the transfer?

    Or must the VA resident initiate the transfer thru a VA FFL? Last I checked 18 USC 922 that's what it looked like to me - must start with an FFL in your state of residence.

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    Mike wrote:
    To transfer a handgun from a VA resident to a PA resident - hmm - I wonder if the VA resident can lawfully transport the gun across state lines to a Sheriff or FFL to do the transfer?

    Or must the VA resident initiate the transfer thru a VA FFL? Last I checked 18 USC 922 that's what it looked like to me - must start with an FFL in your state of residence.
    Appreciate the heads up. I should have know that but have never had the occassion to deal with it first hand. I just checked with a local FFL and yes the transfer must begin and end with a FFL. Thankfully there is time to accomplish this before my trip.

    Thanks again.

    Yata hey
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Transfers:

    A handgun does NOT need to be sent FROM an FFL for an interstate transfer. It can be sent/delivered by the seller directly to the receiving FFL in comlpiance w/FED regs.

    Obviously, bith states laws must be followed as well. I do not know about VA, but PA has no more restrictive reg so the handgun is OK to deliver direct to the buyers FFL per PA law..


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    Pa. Patriot wrote:
    Transfers:

    A handgun does NOT need to be sent FROM an FFL for an interstate transfer. It can be sent/delivered by the seller directly to the receiving FFL in comlpiance w/FED regs.

    Obviously, bith states laws must be followed as well. I do not know about VA, but PA has no more restrictive reg so the handgun is OK to deliver direct to the buyers FFL per PA law..
    Correct me if I am wrong please. As I understand it, I would be in violation if I transported it, drove with it in my vehicle, to a FFL in Pa. for ultimate transfer to my friend. It would therefore need to be shipped by UPS or FedEx right?

    Or could I simply transport my own weapon(s) which is legal and then when I do decide to transfer one of them, go to a local FFL? I know, open blog and all that -I'm not considering violation- just wondering out loud.

    So many laws and so little time.:?

    Yata hey
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Why not find a PA FFL that you would use for this and ask them? They should know.

    Ken

    p.s.; My ffl in Las Vegas would do this.

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    CowboyKen wrote:
    Why not find a PA FFL that you would use for this and ask them? They should know.

    Ken

    p.s.; My ffl in Las Vegas would do this.
    Going to do this tomarrow. My preferred FFL is closed today.
    Yata hey
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    You can personally tranport the firearm to the FFL. :celebrate

    18PACS§6106 is the statute that prohibits transport/carry.


    Since you have a license from a reciprcal state you fall under exemption (b)(15)

    Even if you had no PA or othher state license you would still be exempt under exception (b)(8)


    ETA ~ PS: I am an FFL




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    Pa. Patriot wrote:
    You can personally tranport the firearm to the FFL. :celebrate

    18PACS§6106 is the statute that prohibits transport/carry.

    Since you have a license from a reciprcal state you fall under exemption (b)(15)

    Even if you had no PA or othher state license you would still be exempt under exception (b)(8)
    ETA ~ PS: I am an FFL
    Ok lets try this one more time. In Va. I can OC or CC as I have a permit. Before crossing the People's Republic of Maryland, I must stop unload all weapons and magazines and secure them in seperate locked containers - I'll be in a pickup so no trunk. Then once I'm in Pa. I can reload and holster either OC or CC in most places. My friend can have the weapon in his home but cannot accept transfer or carry it until we do the necessary things with a FFL. Then he can OC (not in a vehicle or same certain cities) but not CC until he gets his permit/license.

    With that said, Mike's cite regarding interstate commerce 18 USC 922 would seem to preclude transporting a weapon across state lines for the purpose of transfer it.

    I think that I'll just forget the whole thing but carry the pistol with me in case I change my mind when I get there. My gf taught me what it means to change one's mind.

    Yata hey



    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Grapeshot wrote:
    With that said, Mike's cite regarding interstate commerce 18 USC 922 would seem to preclude transporting a weapon across state lines for the purpose of transfer it.
    There is nothing in 922 that I can find that stipulates a FFL on the transferor end. ATF FAQ website also does not stipulate this.

    I see nothing to prevent you from taking the firearm to the FFL in person. You are exempt from 6106 due to your VA license here in PA.
    While traveling through MD you can unload and store per 18 USC 926A
    The only requirement of 18 USC 926A is that you are legal in your rigin and detinations (VA and PA)

    Again, I see nothing precluding you from personaly delivering the firearm to a PA FFL. The only catch is "unloaded/seperate conatiner" for MD.



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    Pa. Patriot wrote:
    There is nothing in 922 that I can find that stipulates a FFL on the transferor end. ATF FAQ website also does not stipulate this.

    I see nothing to prevent you from taking the firearm to the FFL in person. You are exempt from 6106 due to your VA license here in PA.
    While traveling through MD you can unload and store per 18 USC 926A
    The only requirement of 18 USC 926A is that you are legal in your rigin and detinations (VA and PA)

    Again, I see nothing precluding you from personaly delivering the firearm to a PA FFL. The only catch is "unloaded/seperate conatiner" for MD.
    Looks like a plan that will work and keep me free.

    Appreciate all the help.

    Glad I'm not traveling all of the lower 48!

    Yata hey
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Pa. Patriot wrote:
    Grapeshot wrote:
    With that said, Mike's cite regarding interstate commerce 18 USC 922 would seem to preclude transporting a weapon across state lines for the purpose of transfer it.
    There is nothing in 922 that I can find that stipulates a FFL on the transferor end. ATF FAQ website also does not stipulate this.

    I see nothing to prevent you from taking the firearm to the FFL in person. You are exempt from 6106 due to your VA license here in PA.
    While traveling through MD you can unload and store per 18 USC 926A
    The only requirement of 18 USC 926A is that you are legal in your rigin and detinations (VA and PA)

    Again, I see nothing precluding you from personaly delivering the firearm to a PA FFL. The only catch is "unloaded/seperate conatiner" for MD.
    OK, I think you are right - he can transfer to a dealer, but not a Sheriff I guess:

    "18 USC 922(a) It shall be unlawful— . . .(5) for any person (other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector) to transfer, sell, trade, give, transport, or deliver any firearm to any person (other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector) who the transferor knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, does not maintain a place of business in) the State in which the transferor resides; except that this paragraph shall not apply to (A) the transfer, transportation, or delivery of a firearm made to carry out a bequest of a firearm to, or an acquisition by intestate succession of a firearm by, a person who is permitted to acquire or possess a firearm under the laws of the State of his residence, and (B) the loan or rental of a firearm to any person for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes; . . ."

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    Mike wrote:
    OK, I think you are right - he can transfer to a dealer, but not a Sheriff I guess:

    "18 USC 922(a) It shall be unlawful— . . . (5) for any person (other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector) to transfer, sell, trade, give, transport, or deliver any firearm to any person (other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector) who the transferor knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, does not maintain a place of business in) the State in which the transferor resides; except that this paragraph shall not apply to (A) the transfer, transportation, or delivery of a firearm made to carry out a bequest of a firearm to, or an acquisition by intestate succession of a firearm by, a person who is permitted to acquire or possess a firearm under the laws of the State of his residence, and (B) the loan or rental of a firearm to any person for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes; . . ."
    Oh, yes! Now I see where the confusion was...

    As a non-res you can only send/deliver to a licensee. Correct.
    Not a sheriff. No matter as I know of no sheriffs that will do transfers anyway (although they can)


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    Pa. Patriot wrote:
    As a non-res you can only send/deliver to a licensee. Correct.
    Not a sheriff. No matter as I know of no sheriffs that will do transfers anyway (although they can)
    Hmm - we need to figure out a legal theory under which to sue to force Sheriffs to do the transfers - and enable 18-20 year olds to take title to handguns in private transfers NOT between family members

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    Mike wrote:
    Pa. Patriot wrote:
    As a non-res you can only send/deliver to a licensee. Correct.
    Not a sheriff. No matter as I know of no sheriffs that will do transfers anyway (although they can)
    Hmm - we need to figure out a legal theory under which to sue to force Sheriffs to do the transfers - and enable 18-20 year olds to take title to handguns in private transfers NOT between family members
    Don't we first need an 18 year old and the transferor to go to a sheriff and be refused? Then simply malfeasance in office for refusing to do their duty. Or is that too simple?

    Yata hey
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Grapeshot wrote:
    Mike wrote:
    Pa. Patriot wrote:
    As a non-res you can only send/deliver to a licensee. Correct.
    Not a sheriff. No matter as I know of no sheriffs that will do transfers anyway (although they can)
    Hmm - we need to figure out a legal theory under which to sue to force Sheriffs to do the transfers - and enable 18-20 year olds to take title to handguns in private transfers NOT between family members
    Don't we first need an 18 year old and the transferor to go to a sheriff and be refused? Then simply malfeasance in office for refusing to do their duty. Or is that too simple?

    Yata hey
    Aye aye!

    I'd volunteer to try, but I've less than 4 months until I'm 21, and I doubt the case would be resolved before then....

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