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Thread: A new twist on open carry

  1. #1
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    While I was at work earlier today (I'm a security officer), one of the customers was a guy I know (I have tutored him at my other job) who owns his own security company. We immediately struck up a conversation and I then noticed his sidearm, which was not in a holster, but rather, just stuffed butt forward inside the waistband of his pants at approximately the 5 o'clock position.

    I commented on it, saying that carrying that way with a round in the pipe is unsafe. He responded that he has never carried a handgun in a holster and that he has been carrying this way for 20 years and has never had a problem. He also told me that the weapon he was carrying, a Sig Sauer (he did not say which model it was), cost $1,500 and had a safety, so there was absolutely no chance of an unintentional discharge, according to him.

    When I explained to him that safeties can and do fail and that carrying this way was dangerous due to the fact that there was nothing covering the trigger, he said that everyone has their preferences and that this was his. He also hinted that his twenty years of experience compared to my relative youth (I'm in my 20s) meant that I was in no position to tell him what is or is not safe or effective. He went on to say that holsters slow his draw, to which I responded that the purpose of a holster was to provide the desirable balance of speed of draw and safety, and that it takes practice, (which I have had plenty of with the Level III Serpa I just purchased for my Glock 22) for someone to be able to draw quickly from their duty holster.

    He told me that if SHTF, he is prepared to kill if necessary, something I found to be rather curious, due to the fact that his sidearm was butt forward at the five o'clock position; think about it, how in the world is this a fast draw? The scenario he presented was that if someone came into my site shooting, my holstered handgun would put me at a disadvantage compared to his unholstered one. I responded that this would be the case whether the guard's handgun was holstered or not.

    Lastly, I asked him if any of the security companies he had worked for in the past had a problem with him carrying his handguns this way, and he told me no. I could only think to myself, "Inf**kingcredible. How in the world does any security company worth its reputation allow its guards to walk around carrying their firearms this way?"

    Overall, I can't quite say that this was a learning experience, but I can say that it is frightening that there are actually people out there, both security guards and ordinary people, who carry loaded guns unholstered either in their pockets or in the waistbands of their pants. It's a shame that I'm 20 years (give or take) this gentleman's junior, yet I know far more about proper security protocol and safely carrying guns than he does.

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    I have to say, 20 years of doing something safely seems like pretty good statistics.

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    Regular Member Decoligny's Avatar
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    FogRider wrote:
    I have to say, 20 years of doing something safely seems like pretty good statistics.
    Just like the drunk who has been driving home from the bar for twenty years and hasn't been busted or wrecked yet, and yes I know a couple of people who fit that category. It doesn't make him safe, it just makes him lucky, so far.



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    Decoligny wrote:
    Just like the drunk who has been driving home from the bar for twenty years and hasn't been busted or wrecked yet, and yes I know a couple of people who fit that category. It doesn't make him safe, it just makes him lucky, so far.

    That was pretty much the point I was trying to make. At some point it's not luck. It sounds like your buddy has drinking and driving figured out. I can honestly say I'd have no problem being around tattedupboy's guy, or riding with the guy you know. a few days, a couple weeks, maybe five years is luck. Twenty? Something about what they are doing is safe. I wouldn't carry like that, and I wouldn't drive drunk, but these folks quite abviously can.

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    And millions of thugs have not shot themselves, either. Neither have millions and millions of folks in various and sundry other countries where the concept of a "holster" is not the common method of carrying a handgun.

    I'm not so sure about the speed or practicality for me of the reversed-butt thing, but otherwise this is just a lot of difference of opinion.

    All you "this is unsafe and an accident waiting to happen" folks sound exactly like the "open carry is an invitation for a thug to steal your weapon" people we deflate by asking for just one documented case. (Yes, I'm presuming he keeps his finger off the trigger while the Sig is in his pants, and that he cinches his belt tight enough to provide reasonable retention.)

    Give it a break, folks! It's different, but not earth-shattering.

    stay safe.

    skidmark
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    skidmark wrote:
    And millions of thugs have not shot themselves, either. Neither have millions and millions of folks in various and sundry other countries where the concept of a "holster" is not the common method of carrying a handgun.

    I'm not so sure about the speed or practicality for me of the reversed-butt thing, but otherwise this is just a lot of difference of opinion.

    All you "this is unsafe and an accident waiting to happen" folks sound exactly like the "open carry is an invitation for a thug to steal your weapon" people we deflate by asking for just one documented case. (Yes, I'm presuming he keeps his finger off the trigger while the Sig is in his pants, and that he cinches his belt tight enough to provide reasonable retention.)

    Give it a break, folks! It's different, but not earth-shattering.

    stay safe.

    skidmark
    Let me ask you something. If you were a business owner and were looking for a security company (one that employs armed guards) to guard your business, would you a company whose guards are walking around with unholstered handguns guarding your business? I believe I already know what your answer is. If a private person with a CCW permit does this, whether openly or concealed, it is a cause for concern, but not as big of a concern as it is when a security guard does it. Furthermore, it does not look professional.

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    just out of curiosity so is the problem that he is not wearing a holster, and if he was wearing a holster in his waist or pocket it would be ok. I've been able to fit my pistol in my pocket but it's too snug of a fit to get it out in a speedy manner.

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    Look at these.


    http://www.clipdraw.com/






    ----



    As a side note...

    I don't know whether its inadvisable or not, and I wouldn't consider it as secure as a holster. But I have a story.

    I've never carried a gun by sticking it down my pants, but I've stuck a Ruger MKII in between my belt and my pants a couple of times to hike to the place where I've shot it.When I put it in the belt the belt itself covered thetrigger guard pretty well, andwith the belt tightened it waspretty snug. (The only time I carried the Ruger into town using this method it was a trip to the store to get a holster for it, which removed the need to ever do this again. ) I think I almost always had it empty chamber, but if the chamber was already loaded beforeleaving I just put the safety on.

    I got the holster as it seemed more secure, although the belt seemed to work pretty well at the time. It was the only legal way I could transport the firearm on footbefore I had a holster. NV caselaw says a gun concealed in something the person is carrying is still concealed, so I couldn't have put it in a backpack.



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    Founder's Club Member - Moderator longwatch's Avatar
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    Pistols were around for a suprisingly long time before somebody put them in holsters. Not my choice to carry that way but certain newer guns its safe enough.

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    Regular Member zoom6zoom's Avatar
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    A $1500 SIG? He either got ripped off or it's a collectible like a nice P-210, in which case it's heresy to be using it as a carry gun, especially just stuffed in his waistband.

    Most SIGs don't have safetys. At least the double action ones don't.

    If nothing else, I wouldn't count on my gun being where I left it if I had to run without a holster.

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    http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m...51/ai_n8591504

    A article on the history of the term "mexican carry."

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    Mexican carry is one thing for Joe Average for whom carry is an all or nothing proposition. Either the average citizen is walking around unmolested, is dealing with a verbal-only threat, or is faced with violence in which case the firearm is likely to be drawn and thus in his hand. The security guard, however, like a cop faces the very real prospect of non-lethal hand-to-hand struggles. During such a wrestling match the lack of a holster would, at best, result in the handgun simply falling to the ground. At worst it will result in the guard finding himself facing a hostile adversary who is now armed with the guard's gun. What was a justifiable use of force situation will have become a justifiable use of deadly force situation except that the guard's option for deadly force will be in the adversary's hand.

    The guard has been lucky so far either by being in a job where the gun is mostly for show or by never having had to actually face a determined adversary.


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    Felid`Maximus wrote:
    Look at these.


    http://www.clipdraw.com/






    ----



    As a side note...

    I don't know whether its inadvisable or not, and I wouldn't consider it as secure as a holster. But I have a story.

    I've never carried a gun by sticking it down my pants, but I've stuck a Ruger MKII in between my belt and my pants a couple of times to hike to the place where I've shot it.When I put it in the belt the belt itself covered thetrigger guard pretty well, andwith the belt tightened it waspretty snug. (The only time I carried the Ruger into town using this method it was a trip to the store to get a holster for it, which removed the need to ever do this again. ) I think I almost always had it empty chamber, but if the chamber was already loaded beforeleaving I just put the safety on.

    I got the holster as it seemed more secure, although the belt seemed to work pretty well at the time. It was the only legal way I could transport the firearm on footbefore I had a holster. NV caselaw says a gun concealed in something the person is carrying is still concealed, so I couldn't have put it in a backpack.

    As far as I'm concerned, clipdraw is still a form of Mexican Carry due to the fact that there is nothing covering the trigger. It's just safer to spend money on a holster.

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    Regular Member MetalChris's Avatar
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    tattedupboy wrote:
    Felid`Maximus wrote:
    Look at these.


    http://www.clipdraw.com/


    As far as I'm concerned, clipdraw is still a form of Mexican Carry due to the fact that there is nothing covering the trigger. It's just safer to spend money on a holster.
    Especially when we're talkin about a Glock...man, that's an ND waiting to happen. At least with an XD or 1911 (or any other number of guns) you have some sort of safety, but even still I'd be very hesitant to carry like that.

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    SNIP/minor edits:
    I noticed his sidearm, which was not in a holster, but rather, just stuffed butt forward inside the waistband of his pants at approximately the 5 o'clock position.

    He was carrying a Sig Sauer cost $1,500 and had a safety,


    It's a shame that I'm 20 years (give or take) this gentleman's junior, yet I know far more about proper security protocol and safely carrying guns than he does.
    The above bold text/statement is only an opinion.
    Has this person injured himself or someone else with his methods.
    Do you know of anyone with proper firearms training that has injured themselves carrying this way. Documented/verifiable cases only.

    MOB carry shown here with a holster,
    this method of carry was extremely popular decades ago.
    (the way my Grandfather carried his Colt 1903,the alternative was inhis coat pocket, neither with a holster)

    As for the Sig Sauer with a safety, costing >$1500
    1.) P 210
    2.) P 226 X5
    3.) P 220 SAO Match
    4.) Sig Revolution
    5.)A Custom or engraved model with manual safety
    6.)A model with a safety he paid too much for
    7.) He was lying about the price
    8.) He is an idiot and doesn't know much/if anything about his carry gun, he thinks his decocker is a manual safety.

    It may not be to your liking but it isn't illegal, all methods of carry have down sides.
    Apparently this works for him.

    I personally prefer a holster with no retention other than friction, 20+ yrs no problems.
    Flame away

    EDIT:
    Forgot something.
    If you think like a Statist, act like one, or back some, you've given up on freedom and have gone over to the dark side.
    The easiest ex. but probably the most difficult to grasp for gun owners is that fool permission slip so many of you have, especially if you show it off with pride. You should recognize it as an embarrassment, an infringement, a travesty and an affront to a free person.


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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    tattedupboy wrote:
    skidmark wrote:
    And millions of thugs have not shot themselves, either. Neither have millions and millions of folks in various and sundry other countries where the concept of a "holster" is not the common method of carrying a handgun.
    Let me ask you something. If you were a business owner and were looking for a security company (one that employs armed guards) to guard your business, would you a company whose guards are walking around with unholstered handguns guarding your business? I believe I already know what your answer is. If a private person with a CCW permit does this, whether openly or concealed, it is a cause for concern, but not as big of a concern as it is when a security guard does it. Furthermore, it does not look professional.
    From the OP it was not the guards who were walking aound with the gun stuck in their pants, so do not get your pants in a twist. The owner of the security company was the one carrying Mexican style.

    If I was looking for a security company I would be looking at the guards to see how they presented themselves, and how closely they followed post orders and the contract. I would be looking to see how the ownership/management handled the guards' and my employees' complaints about each other. I would be looking to see how much flash and how much actual protection I was getting for my buck. If the ownerr of the company is a crusty old fart who carries Mexican style but delivers a good product I would be more inclined to buy from him than from a Richard-tard with a Level VIII retention holster and patent leather shoes who costs more and delivers less.

    And why "If a private person with a CCW permit does this, whether openly or concealed, it is a cause for concern"? (Yes, I know the 4 rules and can recite them sideways in alphabetical order by height! ) With Mexican carry there are 2 issues to be addressed: 1) keep the gun from slipping around, or worse yet, slippingout; and 2) keep your Johnson as well as your booger hook off the bang switch. (I have never heard of anybody having any problems with keeping the former off the trigger/ out of the trigger guard.)

    I'm sure some of you would have triple apoplexy if you saw how I carried my DA/SA pistols in an open-top paddle holster, but then that just might be a good thing. :P

    stay safe.

    skidmark
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    Coupla questions: "Butt forward" as in facing counter-clock? At 5:00 the butt has very little chance of being angled"forward" unless you have a 28 or narrower waist.

    Now, that is indeed faster than having it the other way, but not as safe. Either way, some practice is needed to make sure you do not sweep your love handle or leg while drawing.

    You could always challenge him to a quick-draw competition somewhere that allows holster draws; he carries 5:00 IWB, you carry 3:00 or 4:00 OWB holstered, and see which is faster.

    For me, holstering is more a matter of making sure the gun stays in one position and can't shift significantly as I go about my day. If the gun stays put in your waistband,your pantsact as the holster in terms of you making sure you index your finger when drawing. You still can't get to the trigger.

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    I honestly can't believe what I'm reading. Sure, I am completely in favor of people exercising RKBA in whatever manner they choose. However, with RKBA, as with any other right, there are responsibilities. You can choose to defend those who carry irresponsibly all you want (and believe me, carrying Mexican is an irresponble and downright dangerous exercise of RKBA), but to me this article sums it up convincingly.

    http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m...51/ai_n8591504

    In the 2004 American Handgunner Annual, in an article on concealed handgun carry, I made the point that there were a lot of reasons not to simply stuff the pistol into the waistband without a holster. This practice is known colloquially as Mexican Carry. One reader wrote, shocked, to ask why I would use such a "racist" term. I was reminded that we old, gray gunnies can't take for granted that the new generation knows where our ancient lingo came from.

    If you go back to the roots of this term, you find that there is no racism, nor anything else pejorative in "Mexican Carry." The lore of the gun tells us that back in the 19th Century, the Mexican vaquero, much like the American cowboy, was an independent and self-reliant sort who often made it a point to carry a handgun. Alas, the history of 19th century Mexico was entailed one despot rising after another. The day came when the average citizen was stripped of his former right to go armed when he wished.

    This did not sit well with the fiercely freedom-loving caballeros. They grudgingly took off their gun belts and holsters, because possession of those accoutrements would be seen as evidence that they had violated the draconian new laws that disarmed them. However, they defiantly kept their handguns, simply stuffing them into the waistband behind their ordinary belt. If the Federales hove into view, the citizen would simply slip his revolver into some discreet place where he could retrieve it later.

    Thus, as I understand the history of the matter, there's nothing culturally negative about "Mexican Carry," as it became known. When we use the term, we're paying homage to generations of men south of the border who refused to give up the right to protect themselves and their families because petty tyrants attempted to make them helpless.

    Theory and Practice

    As noted in the Handgunner Annual piece, professionals have gotten away from Mexican carry. The gun can shift inside the waistband. It can even slip out unnoticed when you lie down for a nap. On a sedentary day that involves nothing more strenuous than a walk through the mall, you may get by with Mexican carry, but the moment action takes place--running, fighting, you name it--the chance increases exponentially that the insecurely-held pistol may become dislodged.

    Some handguns carry better this way than others. One fellow thrust a cocked derringer, loaded with a .410 shotshell, inside his waistband. The spur trigger struck the edge of his belt, and the pistol fired, emasculating him. A proper trigger guard, and preferably both a heavy trigger pull and a manual safety, will go far to prevent accidental discharges in Mexican Carry.

    Revolvers don't work well for this. The belt holds the widest part, the cylinder, and when gravity goes to work there's no catch point to keep the wheel-gun from sliding down the trouser leg. Old time cops wrapped rubber bands around their stocks to prevent this, but it was only a marginally efficient expedient. The slim, flat-sided 1911 (not called "old slabsides" for nothing) is more stable and comfortable than most when carried this way. However, shifting against the body can sometimes wipe off the safety catch. If the safety lever is ambidextrous, there's no holster to protect the outside lever from being wiped to the "off" position by the forearm. At such moments, the grip safety doesn't seem so extraneous after all. A striker-fired auto like the Glock? Glock itself strongly recommends not carrying with a round in the chamber unless the pistol's trigger guard area is properly protected by a holster. When the gun's manufacturer talks, I listen.

    Final Advice

    A belt clip attached in some way to the gun--the Barami Hip Grip for a revolver, or the Brown & Pharr Belt Clip for a 1911, for example--can keep the gun from "trundling down the pant leg," as Col. Charles Askins, Jr. described a personal experience that awakened him to the dangers of Mexican Carry. But it won't keep body parts from pushing the gun up and out of the waistband during vigorous activity.

    Unless there's an emergency need, don't take short cuts. Invest in a moderately priced, thin-body inside the waistband holster with the kind of attachment clip that bites like a pit bull. The Ted Blocker DA-3 and Alessi Talon come to mind, but there are several other good ones. It only takes another few seconds to put on or take off, but will he much more secure, and the very slight added thickness of the holster is more than balanced comfort-wise by the reduction in gun shifting.

    Mexican Carry is an interesting artifact of defensive handgun history, and can sometimes be the lesser of two evils when a pistol needs to be carried unexpectedly. But it usually causes more problems than it solves, and is left to history rather than practice by most competent handgunners.

  19. #19
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    i dont use a holster either. but its in my pocket

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    State Researcher Bill Starks's Avatar
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    For me, full time carry will be always be in a holster. In and emergency I could see tucking it in the waistband to secure it temporarily.

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    johnnyb wrote:
    i dont use a holster either. but its in my pocket
    If you're going to spend hundreds on a firearm to protect yourself, then do it right and purchase a holster to put it in. Not sure what make and model you carry, but a pocket holster seems to be in order for you.

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