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The Open Carry Argument

Alec411

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Mainsail:

I enjoyed your dissertation on the Pros of OC and the Cons of CC. I do have a couple of very specific points I would like to make. In order to bring some creditability to what I write, some backqround is needed.

After two tours of duty with the USMC as a sniper/tracker in Viet Nam, and college on the GI Bill, I was recruited by a federal law enforcement/Intel agency. While that agency was home for 30+ years, I quite often was assigned TDY to other agencies and entities within the federal gov't. These include, but are not limited to BN&DD(preceeded DEA), the DEA, ATF, NSA, U.S. Marh. Service, etc. At the time of retirement I was a GS-1811/14. Since retirement I have also taught at FLETC in GA.

My education (thanks to Unc Sam) consits of two BA/BS degrees, my M.B.A, and a PhD.

I have no strong feelings one way or the other regarding OC/CC. My opinion is that each has pros/cons and each individual must come to his own conclusion regarding any possible preferrence. It, given what is possibly at stake, is a highly personal matter! On-the-job about 90% of my carry was CC, however, I did carry openly with no badge showing about 10% of the time.

My, I hope, constructive critcism is with the manner in which you dimiss, or discount a point that is not in keeping with your own beliefs. For example, you use OFTEN the phraise "there is no credible evidence of". Another, your use of "never". Generally like this 'I 've never seen one', or 'there never has been'. One cannot assume that just because he/she has never seen or experienced something, that cannot or does not exist! No one can make the statement "that there is no credible evidence" to counter a point without citeing supporting evidence. In any case, the word "credible" is subjective in and of itself. It is a matter of someone's opinion. Without evidence it can not be substantiated.

So in the absence factual evidence, how do I make a difinitive conclusion? I can't! To large extent, I can use my own experience, but only if the experience greatly exceeds that of an average persons, in that specific situation. If the instance of occurance, of a certain act, is something I have personally experienced "X" times; now I can begin to incorporate statistical inferance into my attempt to present evidence that is as fact based as possible, under the circumstances. Courts have determined that I am an "expert witness" in very specific areas. How can they do that? It comes down to is the judgement of my professional peers. Many times a certification is involved. For example I am a (was) a Licensed C.P.A.. Certification was determined based upon specific factors such as, experience, exam results. If I scored in the top 1% of 10,000 people taking the same exam, am I an expert? Yes!

Do my professional opinions qualify as being highly credible? In courts of law, yes. Can the court rely on my professional estimations/opinions as being fact? They do everyday in thousands of cases.

That was one hell of a long way to suggest that when conducting analysis, or in arriving at a factual conclusion; "there is no credible evidence", or "Never", or "I've never seen" should be relied on with a ton of skepticism.
 

Alec411

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Unfortunately no. I was diagnosed with a life ending disease, goin to be tied up in treatment.
 

rmodel65

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Alec411 wrote:
Unfortunately no. I was diagnosed with a life ending disease, goin to be tied up in treatment.

Im sorry to hear that, Ill be praying for you brother
 

tattedupboy

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I see that you just joined OCDO a few days ago, Alec411 and just wanted to welcome you aboard. I believe that you just helped to keep this thread from becoming a flame war. You are absolutely correct with everything you say. Just because CC is what is best for tattedupboy, that does not mean it is best for mainsail or anyone else on this board. It is up to each person to figure out which mode of carry is best for them while at the same time recongnizing that others have different circumstances and preferences.
 

Alec411

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RMODEL65:

Thank you Bro! In faith, I am believing that by His stripes I am healed! I could use many, many prayers.

alec
 

SANDCREEK

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Precisely the issue - I suspect that we would ALL like to be able to make the choice to OC MORE. If we don't excercise the practice of OC ( when no law prohibits it) it will increasingly be deemed "socially unacceptable" except for LEO's.Some people were "uncomfortable" with Rosa Parks "openly seated" in the front of the bus too -instead of out of sight in the rear. I respect each of our intuitions as to when, how, or whether to OC . Even here in Colorado Springs - we OC'ers run the risk of stirring up anti-gun pressure on the city council to follow the example of Denver and ban OC.The Denver situation is a violation of the letter of Colorado statute - and not settled law by a long shot. The reaction I have received to my OC'ing in Colorado Springs so far has been very incouraging - BUT I have been very judicious in my selection of where to carry , and how I present myself. For me the OC experience will probably always be a "podium" experience - as though I am walking up on a stage in front of 100 + people to demonstrate the "proper" and "socially acceptable" manner(IMHO) that a lawful citizen should "model" the excercise of the 2A. I am engaged in a "marketing effort" to introduce and present a personal securityinnovation to the mind-set of the general population - all the time remembering that 85 percent of that population are "sheep" - and are afraid to rock the boat.( but others willl evolve into "sheep dogs" given an example they can pattern after. ) Some people (included in the other 15 percent) are "change agents". I have always been a member of that group. I won't bore the forum with a summary my record in affecting change - but it's pretty good. We are engaged in a competition, battle, war - for the hearts & minds of the majority of our fellow citizens. The firearm debate, and the "gang-banger" problemisn't new. The anti-2A's( &BATFE) has made little or no effort to deal directly with the G-B's, only assaulting the law-abiding citizenry. 18 USC (the federal firearm law) resembles a giant roll of bathroom tissue after an out of control kindergarten class has played with it for an hour - and every "printed word"of 18 USC/Chapter 44 -Firearms is in violation of the US Constitution. The phrase "in or on interstate commerce" is inserted in almost every sentence- FOR A VERY GOOD REASON - the 2A)) If we expect to maintain our freedoms - we will have to excercise our FIRST freedom more. The anit-2A movement consists of the entire spectrum starting with the "offended/uncomfortable" citizen in the park who makes the MWAG call to police and extending to the United Nations "gun control treaty" constituency. My thoughts.
 

XD-GEM

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Alec411 wrote:
Unfortunately no. I was diagnosed with a life ending disease, goin to be tied up in treatment.
Sorry to hear this. I'll put you in my prayers. My wife's brother recently passed away very quicky after a similar diagnosis, so we can empathize with you and your family.
 

Alec411

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You show an good example of have a fine understanding of the issue of OC, and how you fit! PROPS!


alec:celebrate
 

Alec411

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Tomahawk:



Thank you my Bro. I figured I should have lost it in south east Asia.

Semper Fi

Alec
 

bigtex31

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i wish that here were i live in houston tx. we had open carry i want robbers and people like that to know that i carry. but i dont go looking for crime and are trouble i dont every want to take some bodys life but if i have to i will i carry every ware its a peace of mind to me and my fam. that if i have to do buss. then i can. i fell better protected.
 

SANDCREEK

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Public open carryis going to come to Texas - likely attached to the CHL . That will be a start at least - removing the ridiculously unreasonable condition of concealed at all times B.S. Even if Texans are restricted on private property, etc. - at least you'll be able to OC from your parked vehicle to front door of businesses and after that it's up to store management. Then all Texans will have to deal with is educating the "whiners" to get used to it. Too many violent criminals loose in Texas urban areas like DFW & Houston to justify disarming any law-abiding citizen. The State of Texas says in its Constitution that it respects the RKBA - the Legislature needs to harmonize State statutes with the Constitution. Again - "regulate the wearing" is NOT the same as prohibiting the wearing ! Contact Governor & your representative.
 

Alec411

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Sandcreek:

We all have seen businesses with "No Weapons", etc. posted on the door. Someone on this site suggested the use of preprinted "business cards" reading:



NO GUNS ................. NO SALE!

These are apparently passed out to merchants with that policy. I personally will not shop at a place with the "no guns" signs. My mistake has been to just pass by, instead of at least sticking my head in the door saying, "If my gun is unwelcome, then apparently my business isn't wanted either!"



alec
 

bigtex31

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thats correct i cant wait it sucks to have my gun conceald it gets hot here and to be honest if i ever had to use it to protect my self are my fam. it wouldnt be that quick to get to it god forbid i have to.
 

Team Hardline

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So i read the article today in the Star-Telegramregarding the OC proposal. Let me preface what I say with I am a Texas Licensed Concealed Carrier.

Ihave read your Pros onOC. As we know, whether the laws are OC or CC is one thing, but it will never be both.In fact, the law's verbage would be opposite, thus reading,"in plain sight" vs. "out of plain sight".

It is hard to promote OC over CC until a full set of laws can be read distinguishing the two. As things are now,I can wear my suit and have myweapon concealed.Ifthe law were OC, my jacket would conceal theweapon making it illegal.

What needs to be tackled prior to changing CC to OC is the locations in which one can carry a weapon. I understand police stations,Court houses, and airports, butHospitals, racetracks, Post Office, Schools, and I am sure a few more need to be opened up to the law. This should be a priority over changing CC to OC.

In 2007, when i earned my CClicense, there wereonly approx. 288,000 CHL in Texas. That is a blip in the Texas population. I understand the point of not having much proof on being the first to be fired at ina crime situation, but it sure would be nice to havethe probability of more good guys aroundfirst, prior to forcing an OC policy. Same idea with the deterent point. Sure a gun on your hip CAN be a deterent, but it really makes a point with a group of you vs. yourself.

Whether you like it or not, there is something to be said for the Concealed Carry. Being concealed, you are unlabeled by the public. Conversely, you are who they think you are with OC. I don't really care what people think about me, but why take that advantage of them not knowing away?

Pointbeing,I am not against OC, but I think there are some more importantissues to tackle first. Let's get some more good guys with licenses to carry first, open up where we cancarry and then review the idea of OC.
 

Mainsail

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Team Hardline wrote:
I have read your Pros on OC. As we know, whether the laws are OC or CC is one thing, but it will never be both. In fact, the law's verbage would be opposite, thus reading, "in plain sight" vs. "out of plain sight".

This is a really bizarre assertion, and untrue as well. We already have both. Why do you believe this?

As things are now, I can wear my suit and have my weapon concealed. If the law were OC, my jacket would conceal the weapon making it illegal.

I can wear a suit carrying concealed and when I sit down in a restaurant to eat I can remove the jacket and carry openly. I can leave my house on a cool morning wearing a windbreaker carrying concealed, then later when it warms up remove the jacket and carry openly. I don’t see an issue here.

What needs to be tackled prior to changing CC to OC is the locations in which one can carry a weapon. I understand police stations, Court houses, and airports, but Hospitals, racetracks, Post Office, Schools, and I am sure a few more need to be opened up to the law. This should be a priority over changing CC to OC.

We carry openly in all the same places we carry concealed, nothing needs to be changed, added, or deleted. Additionally, police stations, airports, Post Office, hospitals, and racetracks are all perfectly legal to carry in. I was inside SeaTac International Airport twice this month, seeing someone off and waiting for my son to arrive, all while carrying openly.

Whether you like it or not, there is something to be said for the Concealed Carry. Being concealed, you are unlabeled by the public. Conversely, you are who they think you are with OC. I don't really care what people think about me, but why take that advantage of them not knowing away?

You’re viewing the whole matter as an ‘either or’ thing; it is not. The two carry methods go hand in hand and compliment each other.

Let's get some more good guys with licenses to carry first, open up where we can carry and then review the idea of OC.

There are people who choose specifically NOT to be licensed so for them open carry is their only option. In Texas the law doesn’t need to be changed to allow open carry, some particular laws need to be deleted. Here in Washington, we have no law that ‘allows’ us to carry openly. We enjoy the freedom of open carry because our Constitution recognizes our right to do so. The State has not, and constitutionally could not, write a law that barred open carry because the Constitution would override.

Washington: SECTION 24 RIGHT TO BEAR ARMS.The right of the individual citizen to bear arms in defense of himself, or the state, shall not be impaired, but nothing in this section shall be construed as authorizing individuals or corporations to organize, maintain or employ an armed body of men.

Texas:Section 23 - RIGHT TO KEEP AND BEAR ARMS
Every citizen shall have the right to keep and bear arms in the lawful defense of himself or the State; but the Legislature shall have power, by law, to regulate the wearing of arms, with a view to prevent crime.
 

concealed

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I just can't buy the open carry argument. If I was a bank robber, and had to alter my plan, as you say, I would be looking to "take out" any threats I see, be it an armed guard or an armed citizen.

True, the bad guy may abort, but by open carrying you are a target for any bad guy who wants to do bad things. Concealed, you now have the same element of surprise the bad guy does.

I live in an open carry state, legal everywhere except where it's not, no license needed. I rarely see anyone open carrying except police officers in uniform or cowboys on horse. Those who are open carrying stick out like a sore thumb.

Currently, there is a backlog on concealed carry permits (should have mine this week). If I was a bad guy this would scare the hell out of me, as I would have no idea who is carrying and who is not.

Now, if we ALL open carried that would be another story, but for now I choose not to advertise. In real life, IMHO you are playing poker with your hand exposed. Not the best way to win, again IMHO.
 

Mainsail

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concealed wrote:
True, the bad guy may abort, but by open carrying you are a target for any bad guy who wants to do bad things. Concealed, you now have the same element of surprise the bad guy does.


Unless you draw on everyone you pass, you do not have the same element of surprise. Surprise is not a defensive tactic. Once the robber springs his surprise, it’s too late for you to draw. All you can do is react; that’s the point I tried to make. I don’t want to react even if I’m sure I could win.

And no, poker is a poor analogy. People play poker voluntarily and with full awareness of the risk and cost of losing. Life, in and of itself, is certainly a gamble. I am not, by any stretch of the imagination, willingly gambling with my life when I go out and about to do my thing.

If your objective is to shoot someone, concealed carry is will give you many more chances to meet that goal. If your objective is to NOT be a victim of a violent crime, open carry is preferable.
 
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