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Thread: Kennewick PD encounter

  1. #1
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    I was OCing in the Albertson's parking loton Clearwater. Granted, I was acting like teenager...illegally parked and music playing (not very loud), leaned up against mycar waiting for one of my friends to exit the store but not doing anything illegal.

    The funny part is that a KPD officer rolls up after a complaint, sits in his car within easy range of me and calls for backup. Pretty soon, there were three cops standing there. The first one asks for ID, so I showed it to him. Then he tells me that they received a calland in Kennewick, if someone has and unconcealed weapon "they are going to use it."

    I explained to him why I OC (so ordinary citizens see normal guys and galsOCing and the fact I have no motivation to hide it). He asked me to conceal it.I told him "that's the right way tomotivate me to give up a civil liberty (temporarily)" and did so. Also, saying "I guess this means you're doing your job- people are complaining about piddly bull@#$%." probably won him over a bit as well.

    I look enough like a cop that no one seems to complain about me OCing while I'm moving, but apparently standing around will freak out the sheeple in Kennewick.Heads up... Overall, the KPD doesn't seem to be tooanti-OC.

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    Welcome to the forum.

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    animal46g wrote:
    I was OCing in the Albertson's parking loton Clearwater. Granted, I was acting like teenager...illegally parked and music playing (not very loud), leaned up against my convertible waiting for one of my friends to exit the store but not doing anything illegal.

    The funny part is that a KPD officer rolls up after a complaint (mainly about my XD-9 sub compact (carried at 10+1), sits in his car within easy range of me and calls for backup. Pretty soon, there were three cops standing there. The first one asks for ID, so I showed it to him. Then he tells me that they received a calland in Kennewick, if someone has and unconcealed weapon "they are going to use it."

    I explained to him why I OC (so ordinary citizens see normal guys and galsOCing and the fact I have no motivation to hide it). He asked me to conceal it.I told him "that's the right way tomotivate me to give up a civil liberty (temporarily)" and did so. Also, saying "I guess this means you're doing your job- people are complaining about piddly ********." probably won him over a bit as well.

    I look enough like a cop that no one seems to complain about me OCing while I'm moving, but apparently standing around will freak out the sheeple in Kennewick.Heads up... Overall, the KPD doesn't seem to be tooanti-OC.
    Well first welcome to OCDO.

    I am fairly new myself.


    lol you were illegally parked, so you were doing something illegal.

    But a more serious issue is that you gave up your right to OC and so you let him win.


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    Regular Member Gene Beasley's Avatar
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    RiverTMasco wrote:
    lol you were illegally parked, so you were doing something illegal.
    You were in the parking lot and with your vehicle. Unless you were parked in a fire lane or disabled parking, any parking issues are between Albertsons and you. It is not a law enforcement matter.

    That aside, here's my perspective. If one officer comes up and wants to check you out and you surrender your ID, it's your decision to do so (whatever happens, I guess it's your decision). When two more officers roll up, the dynamics have now changed. This would be where I believe I would err on the side of caution. A very good read is the Am I being detained? thread.There is a TON of information in that thread. Don't volunteer any more information than is required. If there isn't a link to a videofor the law professor and cop-turn-lawyer, seek that out (search for "say nothing").

    And... welcome to the forum. You will get a great education in history and trends (and God help us, current events... yes Seattle/Nickels will affect the east side).

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    Gene Beasley wrote:
    RiverTMasco wrote:
    lol you were illegally parked, so you were doing something illegal.
    You were in the parking lot and with your vehicle. Unless you were parked in a fire lane or disabled parking, any parking issues are between Albertsons and you. It is not a law enforcement matter.

    That aside, here's my perspective. If one officer comes up and wants to check you out and you surrender your ID, it's your decision to do so (whatever happens, I guess it's your decision). When two more officers roll up, the dynamics have now changed. This would be where I believe I would err on the side of caution. A very good read is the Am I being detained? thread.There is a TON of information in that thread. Don't volunteer any more information than is required. If there isn't a link to a videofor the law professor and cop-turn-lawyer, seek that out (search for "say nothing").

    And... welcome to the forum. You will get a great education in history and trends (and God help us, current events... yes Seattle/Nickels will affect the east side).
    First off, why must you guys make every encounter a us and them deal? The cop arrives and his first thought is "WhaT the hell?" then he contacts you and you go all defensive and a$$hole on him. Now he doesn't like what you are doing, legal or otherwise, and he thinks everyone OCing as a jerk. FYI,I am in he Tricitiew for a couple of days and I OCed in that the Kennewick Albertsons yesterday and was in Best Buy, Safeway, Denny's, the A&W and down at the Columbia Park and no funny looks, no cops and not even anything. Maybe it's in the attitude, because it's the same way at home inShelton, never a problem. Any encounter with officers is cordial and friendly and a good exchange of info.

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    First off welcome to the forum!

    Second, you could have handled yourself better IMHO.

    Copping an attitude with the cop and being a smartass, while I'm sure it makes you feel good doesn't help anything, in fact will hinder your cause.

    There is a line between standing up for your rights and being a jerk and I think at times you may have crossed it.

    I had a situation in Oly where someone called 911 and madea "man with a gun" call. Officers rolled up and tried to get me to conceal. I'd already been through this with OPD before. I simply told them I was breaking no laws and I wasn't going to conceal. They tried to talk me into it, and to cut them short and push their hand I simply told the officer "go ahead and do what you are going to do, because I am not going to conceal." They took my gun, unloaded it, emptied both mags and put it in my backpack. I went up to the station, made a complaint, spoke with a lawyer a couple of days later and got all manner of things squared away. OPD has a very good understanding of OC laws now.

    And I get along with the cops.

    That said, a professional letter to KPD, or if you can keep your cool going down there and filing a formal complaint is probably in order. They can't order you to conceal.

    I'm sorry but I think there are more diplomatic and effective ways of standing up for your rights. Some will agree with you, some will not, so make your own decisions, but I find you catch more flies with honey...

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    animal46g wrote:
    I was OCing in the Albertson's parking loton Clearwater. Granted, I was acting like teenager...illegally parked and music playing (not very loud), leaned up against my convertible waiting for one of my friends to exit the store but not doing anything illegal.

    The funny part is that a KPD officer rolls up after a complaint (mainly about my XD-9 sub compact (carried at 10+1), sits in his car within easy range of me and calls for backup. Pretty soon, there were three cops standing there. The first one asks for ID, so I showed it to him. Then he tells me that they received a calland in Kennewick, if someone has and unconcealed weapon "they are going to use it."

    I explained to him why I OC (so ordinary citizens see normal guys and galsOCing and the fact I have no motivation to hide it). He asked me to conceal it.I told him "that's the right way tomotivate me to give up a civil liberty (temporarily)" and did so. Also, saying "I guess this means you're doing your job- people are complaining about piddly ********." probably won him over a bit as well.

    I look enough like a cop that no one seems to complain about me OCing while I'm moving, but apparently standing around will freak out the sheeple in Kennewick.Heads up... Overall, the KPD doesn't seem to be tooanti-OC.
    I really don't understand the motives of some people. You are doing something illegal and you have a gun on you.. are you trying to get arrested, or are you just an *******? Seriously this makes everyone who OC's look bad.

    Don't go to stupid places with stupid people and do stupid things.


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    You are doing something illegal
    No, he wasn't. There is no illegal parking on private property except handicapped and fire lane.

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    I look enough like a cop that no one seems to complain about me OCing while I'm moving, but apparently standing around will freak out the sheeple in Kennewick



    One of the LAST things you want to do is to "look like a cop" be it by accident or by intent. That will increase the scrutiny from LEO quicker than anything else.

    Remember, a cpl ALLOWS you to conceal but it doesnot REQUIRE you to conceal.

    I think you have been chastised enough for what appears to be a legitimate mistake on your part while interacting with LEO.

    Welcome to the forum and please take any and all criticism as constructive, not vindictive, although there are a couple of us that mean well but appear to have a bad attitude.



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    Funny thing happened today at Columbia Park in Kennewick. After I had finished my lunch. I went and tossed my trash in the barrel and used the rest room, OCing of course. Back to bench and continued reading my book when, lo and behold, a Kennewick officer shows up.

    Officer "Sir, we had a report of a man with a gun."

    Me "That would be me".

    Officer, "Do you have a CPL?"

    Me, "Yes sir", and I show it to him.

    He hands it back saying "Thank you, we have to check these out."

    Me, "No problem."

    Officer, "Have a nice day." He leaves.

    Simple, friendly and easy on everyone.

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    Wow. But you shouldn't have given in to the man by showing identification. You should have stood your ground and pointed out that a CPL for OC isn't needed. You should have gotten his badge number, and his supervisor's name and filed a complaint. After lecturing him of course...

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    To each his own. Personally I would have done the same exact thing as Bear did. His incident was in no way a detainment and the officer asked to see his CPL, not demanded to see it.
    "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity."

    "though I walk through the valley in the shadow of death, I fear no evil, for I know that you are by my side" Glock 23:40

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    I was being very sarcastic. I would have done the exact same thing as Bear myself.

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    sv_libertarian wrote:
    I was being very sarcastic. I would have done the exact same thing as Bear myself.
    Oh HAHA I thought you had said you would provide ID/cpl in the past.

    I really gotta start reading into the posts a little better sometimes.
    "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity."

    "though I walk through the valley in the shadow of death, I fear no evil, for I know that you are by my side" Glock 23:40

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    I could have made it more plain I was being sarcastic.



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    Regular Member John Hardin's Avatar
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    sv_libertarian wrote:
    I could have made it more plain I was being sarcastic.
    Use proper HTML markup: <sarcasm></sarcasm>


    --


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    Regular Member Gene Beasley's Avatar
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    Well, I guess it's my turn to poke the bear.

    Whenever an officer contacts you, under any circumstance, he is gathering information. That information is evidence. Your demeanor, how you smell, what you generally are like (such as profiling - this is not a dirty word), what your car is like, and every word that comes out of your mouth may appear on a report to be used against you in court.

    Yes, you can pass the personality test and it will be just another line in the officer's logbook and an incident cleared as unfounded. The fact that you know next to nothing about the officer in the midst of the contact puts you at a disadvantage. The officer knows this. The more you talk, the more likely it will end up being a problem for you. I know this from experience on their side of the equation. I thought I was a pretty good cop. I worked with some new cops who were badge-heavy. It was not the best situation knowing that you were more likely to have an encounter escalate unnecessarily while patrolling with them.

    As far asking v. demanding goes; asking is a tacit demand. Most will comply, because they don't think that is an option. Officers learn command presence in the academy, with the FTO and from other officers. The words, "May I see some ID" is usually delivered with the inflection of "Show me your ID."

    Once in his hand, it can easily go into his pocket. For all you know, theweapon will be taken next and run for stolen. If he has your ID and your CPL (or your weapon), you are not free to leave, at least in your car. If he has two back-up officers, I can pretty much guarantee that you're not free to leave.

    I am intotal agreement with Bravo_Sierra. You carry a weapon; you're in the adult world - this would be a good time to act like it.

    Please for the love of God, when you quote this - have the decency to cut whatever isn't pertinent.

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    Nothing in the OP's comments really seems like major smart-assery to me. Sounds like he handled it all in a casual and comfortable manner. People really do read their own prejudice into things.
    Be prepared. Be very prepared.

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    Regular Member John Hardin's Avatar
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    Gene Beasley wrote:
    "Show me your ID."

    Once in his hand, it can easily go into his pocket.
    Gah. Good point.

    So if the officer asks to see your CPL do you just show it to him without letting go of it? "I'm sorry, officer, but if I relinquish possession of this I will be carrying in violation of the law - I will gladly show it to you but I must hold onto it." (assuming of course you're concealing at that moment, or in a vehicle...)

    Or would that pretty much guarantee your being hassled?

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  20. #20
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    I always carry a copy of my cpl in my wallet. Have no idea if it is legal or not. But I have about a dozen copies spread out in differnt coats, in my truck, shaving kit, extra mag compartment on my holster. So no matter what I always have proof of cpl.

    I am very knew to this and have not oc yet except in real safe areas. So be advised this is only what do. It may be wrong.

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    ghosthunter wrote:
    I always carry a copy of my cpl in my wallet. Have no idea if it is legal or not. But I have about a dozen copies spread out in differnt coats, in my truck, shaving kit, extra mag compartment on my holster. So no matter what I always have proof of cpl.

    I am very knew to this and have not oc yet except in real safe areas. So be advised this is only what do. It may be wrong.
    You're my new hero That's pretty hardcore - I should try that myself.

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    Gene Beasley wrote:
    As far asking v. demanding goes; asking is a tacit demand. Most will comply, because they don't think that is an option. Officers learn command presence in the academy, with the FTO and from other officers. The words, "May I see some ID" is usually delivered with the inflection of "Show me your ID."
    I actually learned quite a bit of this working in the Security field. Many security companies have a no physical contact policy unless it is to protect human health, and almost every single one has a no detainment/citizen arrest policy unless it is again related to preservinghuman health.

    That doesn't mean you can't get people to detain themselves with your words.

    Had a guy tresspassing through a construction property by climbing over the 10 foot fence. I had him stop and told him the police had been called and would be coming and blah blah blah. Well he is standing there and I am standing there and the guy is pleading, and he says "Come on man, can I please go?"

    Well if I said no that would lead to me detaining him and possibly feeling the consequences from the company I was working for. But instead you say something like "It would be a lot better if you just sat down on the curb there". Not telling him to, just offering advice...

    I have managed to get 4 people to detain themselves just by offering advice in different worded ways.

  23. #23
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    antispam540 wrote:
    ghosthunter wrote:
    I always carry a copy of my cpl in my wallet. Have no idea if it is legal or not. But I have about a dozen copies spread out in differnt coats, in my truck, shaving kit, extra mag compartment on my holster. So no matter what I always have proof of cpl.

    I am very knew to this and have not oc yet except in real safe areas. So be advised this is only what do. It may be wrong.
    You're my new hero That's pretty hardcore - I should try that myself.
    Don't try it unless you have a lot of money for a legal fee. The RCW is vague as to whether a copy is sufficient. It says you have to present it on command when required to by law, but nowhere does it state a copy is good enough.

    If you try to use a copy of the CPL without the original on your person, you do so at your own risk.
    B.S. Chemistry UofWA '09
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  24. #24
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    Gene Beasley wrote:
    Well, I guess it's my turn to poke the bear.

    Whenever an officer contacts you, under any circumstance, he is gathering information. That information is evidence. Your demeanor, how you smell, what you generally are like (such as profiling - this is not a dirty word), what your car is like, and every word that comes out of your mouth may appear on a report to be used against you in court.

    Yes, you can pass the personality test and it will be just another line in the officer's logbook and an incident cleared as unfounded. The fact that you know next to nothing about the officer in the midst of the contact puts you at a disadvantage. The officer knows this. The more you talk, the more likely it will end up being a problem for you. I know this from experience on their side of the equation. I thought I was a pretty good cop. I worked with some new cops who were badge-heavy. It was not the best situation knowing that you were more likely to have an encounter escalate unnecessarily while patrolling with them.

    As far asking v. demanding goes; asking is a tacit demand. Most will comply, because they don't think that is an option. Officers learn command presence in the academy, with the FTO and from other officers. The words, "May I see some ID" is usually delivered with the inflection of "Show me your ID."

    Once in his hand, it can easily go into his pocket. For all you know, theweapon will be taken next and run for stolen. If he has your ID and your CPL (or your weapon), you are not free to leave, at least in your car. If he has two back-up officers, I can pretty much guarantee that you're not free to leave.

    I am intotal agreement with Bravo_Sierra. You carry a weapon; you're in the adult world - this would be a good time to act like it.

    Please for the love of God, when you quote this - have the decency to cut whatever isn't pertinent.

    You are one of the 'THEMvs US guys and I think your tactic stinks. The officercan gather all the evidence he wants. I WAS DOING NOTHING ILLEGAL. So any evidence will show just that. When will you realize this is about educationing others? Not F**k you, I won't say a thing because I'd rather act guilty. I was doing a legal thing and acted like it. The officer saw that and acted accordingly.

    I did act like an adult, I told the officer what I did and that it was legal was obvious to all involved. You're still being unreasonable and that attitude can end up with your butt in jail. I would rather finish my pleasant day and make tha officer's day pleasant for at least my part of it.

    You weren't there so you have no clue of the officers attitude towards me was. He even sat down on the bench so there was no threat involved or domination stance. No arms crossed or any threatening body language. I know the signs from having been an EMT with the Fire Department for years.

    I will quote the whole damn thing because if you would quit being long winded then the quote wouldn't be so long.

    BTW, your tactics make us enemies not friends and we want cops to be our friends, it just makes life easier.


  25. #25
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    This is another one of those discussions that takes police behavior to be always the same from incident to incident. It sounds as if the cop in Bear's contact in Kennewick was a normal civil individual who was just finding out information in order to clear a MWAG call. Contrast that with Mainsail's Officer Olsen, who just knows that you "just can't walk around with a gun on your hip like that," and chose to use intimidation as a tactic (unsuccessfully, I might add.) Different cop behaviors elicit different citizen behaviors. Not that I'm saying that citizens never start the rude behavior.

    Just-a-car, I disagree with you on the subject of CPL copies. Nowhere that I've found does it say that you can't make your own copy of your CPL. The RCWs tell you how to get a copy, with the wording clearly indicating that they're assuming that you lost your original CPL. The RCWs never state that you can't carry a copy of your CPL, official or home-brewed, in place of the original, just as they never state that you can carry a pistol openly. Things not disallowed are thereby allowed. Lastly, the piece of paper that is the permit you show an LEO is only a representation of the actual permission granted by the state. The actual permission is what is at issue. The required showing of the CPL just makes cop inquiries easier all around and is the reason the law stipulates our carrying it and showing it.

    MD

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