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Kennewick PD encounter

antispam540

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ghosthunter wrote:
I always carry a copy of my cpl in my wallet. Have no idea if it is legal or not. But I have about a dozen copies spread out in differnt coats, in my truck, shaving kit, extra mag compartment on my holster. So no matter what I always have proof of cpl.

I am very knew to this and have not oc yet except in real safe areas. So be advised this is only what do. It may be wrong. :)
You're my new hero :lol: That's pretty hardcore - I should try that myself.
 

David.Car

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Gene Beasley wrote:
As far asking v. demanding goes; asking is a tacit demand. Most will comply, because they don't think that is an option. Officers learn command presence in the academy, with the FTO and from other officers. The words, "May I see some ID" is usually delivered with the inflection of "Show me your ID."
I actually learned quite a bit of this working in the Security field. Many security companies have a no physical contact policy unless it is to protect human health, and almost every single one has a no detainment/citizen arrest policy unless it is again related to preservinghuman health.

That doesn't mean you can't get people to detain themselves with your words.

Had a guy tresspassing through a construction property by climbing over the 10 foot fence. I had him stop and told him the police had been called and would be coming and blah blah blah. Well he is standing there and I am standing there and the guy is pleading, and he says "Come on man, can I please go?"

Well if I said no that would lead to me detaining him and possibly feeling the consequences from the company I was working for. But instead you say something like "It would be a lot better if you just sat down on the curb there". Not telling him to, just offering advice...

I have managed to get 4 people to detain themselves just by offering advice in different worded ways.
 

just_a_car

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antispam540 wrote:
ghosthunter wrote:
I always carry a copy of my cpl in my wallet. Have no idea if it is legal or not. But I have about a dozen copies spread out in differnt coats, in my truck, shaving kit, extra mag compartment on my holster. So no matter what I always have proof of cpl.

I am very knew to this and have not oc yet except in real safe areas. So be advised this is only what do. It may be wrong. :)
You're my new hero :lol: That's pretty hardcore - I should try that myself.
Don't try it unless you have a lot of money for a legal fee. The RCW is vague as to whether a copy is sufficient. It says you have to present it on command when required to by law, but nowhere does it state a copy is good enough.

If you try to use a copy of the CPL without the original on your person, you do so at your own risk.
 

Bear 45/70

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Gene Beasley wrote:
Well, I guess it's my turn to poke the bear.

Whenever an officer contacts you, under any circumstance, he is gathering information. That information is evidence. Your demeanor, how you smell, what you generally are like (such as profiling - this is not a dirty word), what your car is like, and every word that comes out of your mouth may appear on a report to be used against you in court.

Yes, you can pass the personality test and it will be just another line in the officer's logbook and an incident cleared as unfounded. The fact that you know next to nothing about the officer in the midst of the contact puts you at a disadvantage. The officer knows this. The more you talk, the more likely it will end up being a problem for you. I know this from experience on their side of the equation. I thought I was a pretty good cop. I worked with some new cops who were badge-heavy. It was not the best situation knowing that you were more likely to have an encounter escalate unnecessarily while patrolling with them.

As far asking v. demanding goes; asking is a tacit demand. Most will comply, because they don't think that is an option. Officers learn command presence in the academy, with the FTO and from other officers. The words, "May I see some ID" is usually delivered with the inflection of "Show me your ID."

Once in his hand, it can easily go into his pocket. For all you know, theweapon will be taken next and run for stolen. If he has your ID and your CPL (or your weapon), you are not free to leave, at least in your car. If he has two back-up officers, I can pretty much guarantee that you're not free to leave.

I am intotal agreement with Bravo_Sierra. You carry a weapon; you're in the adult world - this would be a good time to act like it.

Please for the love of God, when you quote this - have the decency to cut whatever isn't pertinent.


You are one of the 'THEMvs US guys and I think your tactic stinks. The officercan gather all the evidence he wants. I WAS DOING NOTHING ILLEGAL. So any evidence will show just that. When will you realize this is about educationing others? Not F**k you, I won't say a thing because I'd rather act guilty. I was doing a legal thing and acted like it. The officer saw that and acted accordingly.

I did act like an adult, I told the officer what I did and that it was legal was obvious to all involved. You're still being unreasonable and that attitude can end up with your butt in jail. I would rather finish my pleasant day and make tha officer's day pleasant for at least my part of it.

You weren't there so you have no clue of the officers attitude towards me was. He even sat down on the bench so there was no threat involved or domination stance. No arms crossed or any threatening body language. I know the signs from having been an EMT with the Fire Department for years.

I will quote the whole damn thing because if you would quit being long winded then the quote wouldn't be so long.

BTW, your tactics make us enemies not friends and we want cops to be our friends, it just makes life easier.
 

Machoduck

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This is another one of those discussions that takes police behavior to be always the same from incident to incident. It sounds as if the cop in Bear's contact in Kennewick was a normal civil individual who was just finding out information in order to clear a MWAG call. Contrast that with Mainsail's Officer Olsen, who just knows that you "just can't walk around with a gun on your hip like that," and chose to use intimidation as a tactic (unsuccessfully, I might add.) Different cop behaviors elicit different citizen behaviors. Not that I'm saying that citizens never start the rude behavior.

Just-a-car, I disagree with you on the subject of CPL copies. Nowhere that I've found does it say that you can't make your own copy of your CPL. The RCWs tell you how to get a copy, with the wording clearly indicating that they're assuming that you lost your original CPL. The RCWs never state that you can't carry a copy of your CPL, official or home-brewed, in place of the original, just as they never state that you can carry a pistol openly. Things not disallowed are thereby allowed. Lastly, the piece of paper that is the permit you show an LEO is only a representation of the actual permission granted by the state. The actual permission is what is at issue. The required showing of the CPL just makes cop inquiries easier all around and is the reason the law stipulates our carrying it and showing it.

MD
 

royAG46

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The reason I stated what I was doing was to let everyone know this wasn't an ideal encounter. Normally, I drive a 92 4-runner with a 25th infantry sticker on the back windowand purple heart plates (good ol' boy/redneck mobile). This day however, I was standing next to my new silver eclipse spyder, dressed in a polo shirt and shorts (probablyprofiled as a rich frat boy by the cop). So in this situation, (while potentially vulnerable to a loitering ticket) it probably would not have been a good idea to pick a legal fight right then and there.I learned Yes, I have drafted a letter to KPD, a simple layout of WA law should suffice to resolve this issue.

Apparently, I opened a can of worms by even mentioning this situation in detail. To those of you who have given constructive advice, thank you. To the rest, the pointisthis- DEPENDING ON WHERE YOU OC IN KENNEWICK, THE COPS ARE LIKELY TO SHOW UP, DEAL WITH THEM HOW YOU WILL, BUTTHE ONE I DEALT WITHALSOSEEMED TO THINK THAT- AND I QUOTE, "IN KENNEWICK, IF SOMEONE HAS A GUN OUT, THEY ARE GOING TO USE IT." That needs to change, but a penis measuring contest on the streets isn't they way to do it.

I have OC'd back at that albertson's and other places in Kennewick since this incident. Picking your battles can be a good thing even if you're in the right.
 

David.Car

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Bear 45/70 wrote:
You are one of the 'THEMvs US guys and I think your tactic stinks. The officercan gather all the evidence he wants. I WAS DOING NOTHING ILLEGAL. So any evidence will show just that. When will you realize this is about educationing others? Not F**k you, I won't say a thing because I'd rather act guilty. I was doing a legal thing and acted like it. The officer saw that and acted accordingly.

I did act like an adult, I told the officer what I did and that it was legal was obvious to all involved. You're still being unreasonable and that attitude can end up with your butt in jail. I would rather finish my pleasant day and make tha officer's day pleasant for at least my part of it.

You weren't there so you have no clue of the officers attitude towards me was. He even sat down on the bench so there was no threat involved or domination stance. No arms crossed or any threatening body language. I know the signs from having been an EMT with the Fire Department for years.

I will quote the whole damn thing because if you would quit being long winded then the quote wouldn't be so long.

BTW, your tactics make us enemies not friends and we want cops to be our friends, it just makes life easier.
Ask a lawyer what you should do when cops start asking you questions.

Doesn't matter what the topic is, they will tell you to shut up.
[url]http://www.regent.edu/admin/media/schlaw/LawPreview/[/url]
 

royAG46

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Guys-

I said ID not CPL, I let him see ID so he could run me and find out I'm not a crimminal. I'm not sure how it works out if you refuse to identify yourselfwhile OCing, but I don't care to find out. I'm sure it involves a trip to somewhere where they can fingerprint you. Besides, it's not like we have anything to hide- I thought that's one of the points of OC. I did however, flash my CPL- so I wouldn't get screwed with while driving away (loaded weapon in a vehicle).
 

carhas0

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animal46g wrote:
Guys-

I said ID not CPL, I let him see ID so he could run me and find out I'm not a crimminal. I'm not sure how it works out if you refuse to identify yourselfwhile OCing, but I don't care to find out. I'm sure it involves a trip to somewhere where they can fingerprint you. Besides, it's not like we have anything to hide- I thought that's one of the points of OC. I did however, flash my CPL- so I wouldn't get screwed with while driving away (loaded weapon in a vehicle).

Providing ID while OCing is like providing ID any other time police have no reasonable suspicion of probable cause that you are committing a crime. In WA, LEOs cannot demand ID unless they have at least reasonable suspicion that you are, did, or are about to commit a crime.

That said, you have no idea if the officer has reasonable suspicion or not unless they have told you. (This is why you ask if you are being detained or if you are free to go). Also, as some have suggested, you may choose to show your ID voluntarily.
 

Bear 45/70

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David.Car wrote:
Bear 45/70 wrote:
You are one of the 'THEMvs US guys and I think your tactic stinks. The officercan gather all the evidence he wants. I WAS DOING NOTHING ILLEGAL. So any evidence will show just that. When will you realize this is about educationing others? Not F**k you, I won't say a thing because I'd rather act guilty. I was doing a legal thing and acted like it. The officer saw that and acted accordingly.

I did act like an adult, I told the officer what I did and that it was legal was obvious to all involved. You're still being unreasonable and that attitude can end up with your butt in jail. I would rather finish my pleasant day and make tha officer's day pleasant for at least my part of it.

You weren't there so you have no clue of the officers attitude towards me was. He even sat down on the bench so there was no threat involved or domination stance. No arms crossed or any threatening body language. I know the signs from having been an EMT with the Fire Department for years.

I will quote the whole damn thing because if you would quit being long winded then the quote wouldn't be so long.

BTW, your tactics make us enemies not friends and we want cops to be our friends, it just makes life easier.
Ask a lawyer what you should do when cops start asking you questions.

Doesn't matter what the topic is, they will tell you to shut up.
[url]http://www.regent.edu/admin/media/schlaw/LawPreview/[/url]
Lawyers make money by having you have problems with cops. Shut up and you get a ride until they find out who you are. That's stupid when you ID or CPL tells them you are on the up and up. If you've done nothing illegal, there can be no evidence that you did something illegal. Geez, you're paranoid. Guess I've lived long enough toknow when someone is out to get me or not. This instance was a "NOT".
 

compmanio365

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You don't have to give your DL when you are not driving. Period. You don't have to show your CCW when you aren't concealing. Period. What you WANT to do is another thing entirely.....I usually would show my ID or not depending on the attitude of the police officer I'm dealing with. If they seem decent enough and ask to see it, then I most likely will, with a reminder that I don't HAVE to do so, but I am doing it out of courtesy. If they want to take an attitude, or if I am already being disarmed, I'm not showing them a damn thing. If I'm being illegally detained, the only card I'm pulling out of my wallet is the one with my lawyer's number on it.......
 

Mike

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sean-1286 wrote:
In WA, LEOs cannot demand ID unless they have at least reasonable suspicion that you are, did, or are about to commit a crime.
Does WA have a stop and ID statute? I don;t think so - additionally, Kolender v. Lawsen still stands in the way of state statutes requiring people to have and carry ID in the first place.
 

Phssthpok

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Mike wrote:
sean-1286 wrote:
In WA, LEOs cannot demand ID unless they have at least reasonable suspicion that you are, did, or are about to commit a crime.
Does WA have a stop and ID statute? I don;t think so - additionally, Kolender v. Lawsen still stands in the way of state statutes requiring people to have and carry ID in the first place.
Nope! (pages 2&3):celebrate
 

Bear 45/70

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Mike wrote:
sean-1286 wrote:
In WA, LEOs cannot demand ID unless they have at least reasonable suspicion that you are, did, or are about to commit a crime.
Does WA have a stop and ID statute? I don;t think so - additionally, Kolender v. Lawsen still stands in the way of state statutes requiring people to have and carry ID in the first place.
Doesn't matter in my case, as just before he came up to me I had gone to my truck and sat in the driver's seat to get a throat lozenge. So that's probably why he asked for the CPL. In any case if he had asked for ID I would have shown it to him as I had nothing to hide and who I was wasn't gonna change that.
 

Bear 45/70

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Dave The Welder wrote:
Bear,

What were you doing in Kennewick without telling me? Let me know next time you're in town and we'll do an OC lunch.
The wife was attending a Water Death Investigators class for the Mason Counties Coroners Officeout at the Hammer Training Center,Monday thru Wednesday. We left from Hammer andmade Yakima Wednesday evening after the class got out at 5 PM. Then we came across White Pass and home today. I wasn't sure I was going until the last Sundaymorning as I've been fighting a cold and and a beat up had from my quad trip to Oregon andwasn't sure I was going with her is why I didn't say anything before hand.
 

Bear 45/70

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joeroket wrote:
Now that would be fun training.
She's has had aWeapons of Mass Destruction class, a Bio Weapons classand a Death Investigators classout there in the last 3 years and she is still is only a part time Deputy Coroner. Her real job is as a Para-medic at Mason County Medic One. She has also had aTactical EMS class for playing with the SWAT weenies 4 years ago. The woman loves learning new stuff and is talking retiring from EMS after 22 years in 2011. Probably become a Deputy Coroner then. I need someone to work to support mine and her gunaddiction
 
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