Definition of "clearly visible"?

LEO 229 wrote:

Clearly visible is the ability to see your weapon in some manner if they were on one side of you or another.

If you are wearing a holster on your right hip ANYONE standing to your left would not see it but if they were to move to your other side or the other window they could.

So easily seen is just that. The weapon must be able to be seen on your person regardless of your situation.

In the small of your back would be blocked by the seat. On your right hip in a vehicle where the view from the right side would be blocked. Both examples of a weapon that is NOT clearly visible.

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I don't see you[r] cite for this. :?

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vt357 wrote:

LEO 229 wrote:

Clearly visible is the ability to see your weapon in some manner if they were on one side of you or another.

If you are wearing a holster on your right hip ANYONE standing to your left would not see it but if they were to move to your other side or the other window they could.

So easily seen is just that. The weapon must be able to be seen on your person regardless of your situation.

In the small of your back would be blocked by the seat. On your right hip in a vehicle where the view from the right side would be blocked. Both examples of a weapon that is NOT clearly visible.

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I agree with pretty much everything that you just said. But just to make this conversation interesting, I'll play devil's advocate and take your example to the nth degree.

What about going to a restaurant that serves alcohol where one must OC? If you sit down in a booth with your firearm to the wall, where basically nobody can see it (even though it is being carried openly on your hip), should that be illegal? Should you have to sit with the strong side facing out?

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vt357,

When you enter a restaurant (that sells alcohol for consumption on its premises), you must OC (I am talking about LACs). You are acknowledged as having a weapon as soon as you enter the restaurant (although it may not be noticed, hence, it may not be acknowledged). But, you areOCing legally per the law (I'm sure someone will post the actual statute).

2nd Amendment........Use it..........Or, lose it!!:X

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MeBaby wrote:

LEO 229 wrote:

Clearly visible is the ability to see your weapon in some manner if they were on one side of you or another.

If you are wearing a holster on your right hip ANYONE standing to your left would not see it but if they were to move to your other side or the other window they could.

So easily seen is just that. The weapon must be able to be seen on your person regardless of your situation.

In the small of your back would be blocked by the seat. On your right hip in a vehicle where the view from the right side would be blocked. Both examples of a weapon that is NOT clearly visible.

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I don't see you[r] cite for this. :?

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I was unaware that I needed to cite my opinion.

I have provided how it is in the LEO world and there is no cite for what is used to determine if you should be arrested for a concealed weapon.

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kenny wrote:

LEO 229 wrote:

Clearly visible is the ability to see your weapon in some manner if they were on one side of you or another.

If you are wearing a holster on your right hip ANYONE standing to your left would not see it but if they were to move to your other side or the other window they could.

So easily seen is just that. The weapon must be able to be seen on your person regardless of your situation.

In the small of your back would be blocked by the seat. On your right hip in a vehicle where the view from the right side would be blocked. Both examples of a weapon that is NOT clearly visible.

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I think this question will have to answered in a court of law. One or more person's opinion does not it law or correct. I would like to see a locality ask the AG for his opinion. Realistically speaking it is impossible for an OC'ers weapon to be visible from all angles. Therefore a judge or jury could/would not convict.

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Kenny, would you (at least) agree that a handgunwould bemore clearly visible on a dashboard than in a holster on someone's waistby a LEO if stopped (just curious)?

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Now the purpose is so that thebusinessdo not over serve you while armed. But this is not even stated or clearly spelled out in the code.

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Clearly visible is the ability to see your weapon in some manner if they were on one side of you or another.

If you are wearing a holster on your right hip ANYONE standing to your left would not see it but if they were to move to your other side or the other window they could.

So easily seen is just that. The weapon must be able to be seen on your person regardless of your situation.

In the small of your back would be blocked by the seat. On your right hip in a vehicle where the view from the right side would be blocked. Both examples of a weapon that is NOT clearly visible.

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LEO 229 wrote:

MeBaby wrote:

LEO 229 wrote:

Clearly visible is the ability to see your weapon in some manner if they were on one side of you or another.

If you are wearing a holster on your right hip ANYONE standing to your left would not see it but if they were to move to your other side or the other window they could.

So easily seen is just that. The weapon must be able to be seen on your person regardless of your situation.

In the small of your back would be blocked by the seat. On your right hip in a vehicle where the view from the right side would be blocked. Both examples of a weapon that is NOT clearly visible.

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I don't see you[r] cite for this. :?

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I was unaware that I needed to cite my opinion.

I have provided how it is in the LEO world and there is no cite for what is used to determine if you should be arrested for a concealed weapon.

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Doesn't the LEO world operate off of either law or department policy or hopefully policy derived from law? I would assume that you are drawing your opinion from one or the other so I'm trying to get you to state where your opinion is coming from.

It also didn't appear to be stated as an opinion.

Oh, and you don't really want to start editing English do you? You would keep us all busy editing yours:lol:.

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LEO 229 wrote:

Now the purpose is so that thebusinessdo not over serve you while armed. But this is not even stated or clearly spelled out in the code.

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Well then how do you know that? Not saying your wrong but do you have a cite for that claim? Personally, I believe that the antis f'd up when they put that poison pill there in 1995, not realizing their error in not banning OC.

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I see you are still fixed on your biased views so I will just tell you....
The point is... I can say anything I like and embellish the story all I want. Some stuff may be true but other things might not be. But some people will believe EVERYTHING they are told. I guess some people are just that gullible. By the way... I lied about having to go to the bathroom in my clothing. But since you were not there you would never know that I lied to you. :lol: Oh.. I actually lied about the entire thing... imagine that!!!

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LEO 229 wrote:

Clearly visible is the ability to see your weapon in some manner if they were on one side of you or another.

If you are wearing a holster on your right hip ANYONE standing to your left would not see it but if they were to move to your other side or the other window they could.

So easily seen is just that. The weapon must be able to be seen on your person regardless of your situation.

In the small of your back would be blocked by the seat. On your right hip in a vehicle where the view from the right side would be blocked. Both examples of a weapon that is NOT clearly visible.

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Well that certainly answers the question of "What is the point?" in the Ever wear more than one? thread. If I'm going to be in LEO229s jurisdiction without a CCW I'm wearing on both hips, SOB, and carry in dual shoulder holsters to make SURE that my carrying is clearly visible regardless of situation. I may even carry on both ankles just in case someone is watching me from under the bleachers and can only see me from the calf down. I'll feel like the Outlaw Josey Wales, but nobody can say I wasn't OC and clearly visible.

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Smurfologist wrote:

kenny wrote:

LEO 229 wrote:

Clearly visible is the ability to see your weapon in some manner if they were on one side of you or another.

If you are wearing a holster on your right hip ANYONE standing to your left would not see it but if they were to move to your other side or the other window they could.

So easily seen is just that. The weapon must be able to be seen on your person regardless of your situation.

In the small of your back would be blocked by the seat. On your right hip in a vehicle where the view from the right side would be blocked. Both examples of a weapon that is NOT clearly visible.

Click to expand...

I think this question will have to answered in a court of law. One or more person's opinion does not it law or correct. I would like to see a locality ask the AG for his opinion. Realistically speaking it is impossible for an OC'ers weapon to be visible from all angles. Therefore a judge or jury could/would not convict.

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Kenny, would you (at least) agree that a handgunwould bemore clearly visible on a dashboard than in a holster on someone's waistby a LEO if stopped (just curious)?

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Either it is or it isn't. If I were stopped by an officer and I was OCing I would notify him/her of the fact while both hands are firmly placed on the steering wheel. I think a lot will depend on the circumstances of the stop.

Whatever happens or does not happen will be a action or reaction of you and the officer.

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I wouldn't leave my weapon just sitting on the dash or seat. That's a 2lb metal object waiting to be a kinetic missle. Although I'm very careful, the more I handle my weapon the greater my chances for a negligent discharge so the safest place for it is in the holster on my hip where it already is. Why do I have to take it out of the holster and place it somewhere else? What if by me taking out of the holster and placing on my dash can be construed as brandishing by someone outside of my vehicle?

Here is another example to muddle. Suppose I OC my weapon in the cupholder of my truck, it can be seen from either the passenger or drivers side window. Well what happens if my truck is lifted and has monster tires so now the view into the cabin from the ground is nil. Am I concealing my weapon now? I believe it's legally OCed. It's visible if the LEO was 7' 7" and could see down into my cabin. :lol:

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eyesopened wrote:

I wouldn't leave my weapon just sitting on the dash or seat. That's a 2lb metal object waiting to be a kinetic missle. Although I'm very careful, the more I handle my weapon the greater my chances for a negligent discharge so the safest place for it is in the holster on my hip where it already is. Why do I have to take it out of the holster and place it somewhere else? What if by me taking out of the holster and placing on my dash can be construed as brandishing by someone outside of my vehicle?

Here is another example to muddle. Suppose I OC my weapon in the cupholder of my truck, it can be seen from either the passenger or drivers side window. Well what happens if my truck is lifted and has monster tires so now the view into the cabin from the ground is nil. Am I concealing my weapon now? I believe it's legally OCed. It's visible if the LEO was 7' 7" and could see down into my cabin. :lol:

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Eyesopened, you bring up some interesting scenarios. I get it!! However, I don't know if you saw that I mentioned I have a place mat that secures my weapon when it is there. Also, I have had plenty of years handling all kinds of weapons, and, I can assure you that the weapon I carry will never have a negligent discharge.

I won't get into a "what if" battle with you. But, I will say that it can also be construed that someone has a concealed weapon if it is not "clearly visible" to a LEO. Also, it will be the interpretation of that LEO whether or not a weapon is "clearly visible" if you get pulled over.

If you mean to say that a weapon is "clearly visible" if it is in your holster, in a cup holder, on a passenger seat (if you have tinted windows), on the floor, or between the seat and the console, I have to say that I do not agree with you if you are comparing it to being on a dashboard. Maybe LEO 229 can shed some light on the "Monster Truck" scenario.

2nd Amendment.........Use it.........Or, lose it!!:X

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longwatch wrote:

LEO 229 wrote:

Now the purpose is so that thebusinessdo not over serve you while armed. But this is not even stated or clearly spelled out in the code.

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Well then how do you know that? Not saying your wrong but do you have a cite for that claim? Personally, I believe that the antis f'd up when they put that poison pill there in 1995, not realizing their error in not banning OC.

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This is the ONLY logical explanation for the law to exist. If you have a better theory I would entertain hearing it.

There have been new articles in the pastthatactually referenced the same thing so it confirmed my theory.

And as you said.... they did not BAN OC so they limited the law to hidden firearms for a specific reason. They could have easily just banned ALL firearms.

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We do not have many monster trucks here in Northers Virginia.

If you are in a truck that is so high that the officer cannot walk up and look in from both sides he is going to ask you to step down and maybe even get you a ladder.

The transaction will happen on level ground and you can go back to your truck once you have received your ticket for illegal bumper height....

So clearly visible would not even come into question as you would no longer be in your vehicle.

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eyesopened wrote:

I wouldn't leave my weapon just sitting on the dash or seat. That's a 2lb metal object waiting to be a kinetic missle. Although I'm very careful, the more I handle my weapon the greater my chances for a negligent discharge so the safest place for it is in the holster on my hip where it already is. Why do I have to take it out of the holster and place it somewhere else? What if by me taking out of the holster and placing on my dash can be construed as brandishing by someone outside of my vehicle?

Here is another example to muddle. Suppose I OC my weapon in the cupholder of my truck, it can be seen from either the passenger or drivers side window. Well what happens if my truck is lifted and has monster tires so now the view into the cabin from the ground is nil. Am I concealing my weapon now? I believe it's legally OCed. It's visible if the LEO was 7' 7" and could see down into my cabin. :lol:

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Eyesopened, you bring up some interesting scenarios. I get it!! However, I don't know if you saw that I mentioned I have a place mat that secures my weapon when it is there. Also, I have had plenty of years handling all kinds of weapons, and, I can assure you that the weapon I carry will never have a negligent discharge.

I won't get into a "what if" battle with you. But, I will say that it can also be construed that someone has a concealed weapon if it is not "clearly visible" to a LEO. Also, it will be the interpretation of that LEO whether or not a weapon is "clearly visible" if you get pulled over.

If you mean to say that a weapon is "clearly visible" if it is in your holster, in a cup holder, on a passenger seat (if you have tinted windows), on the floor, or between the seat and the console, I have to say that I do not agree with you if you are comparing it to being on a dashboard. Maybe LEO 229 can shed some light on the "Monster Truck" scenario.

2nd Amendment.........Use it.........Or, lose it!!:X

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Smurfologist wrote:

eyesopened wrote:

I wouldn't leave my weapon just sitting on the dash or seat. That's a 2lb metal object waiting to be a kinetic missle. Although I'm very careful, the more I handle my weapon the greater my chances for a negligent discharge so the safest place for it is in the holster on my hip where it already is. Why do I have to take it out of the holster and place it somewhere else? What if by me taking out of the holster and placing on my dash can be construed as brandishing by someone outside of my vehicle?

Here is another example to muddle. Suppose I OC my weapon in the cupholder of my truck, it can be seen from either the passenger or drivers side window. Well what happens if my truck is lifted and has monster tires so now the view into the cabin from the ground is nil. Am I concealing my weapon now? I believe it's legally OCed. It's visible if the LEO was 7' 7" and could see down into my cabin. :lol:

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Eyesopened, you bring up some interesting scenarios. I get it!! However, I don't know if you saw that I mentioned I have a place mat that secures my weapon when it is there. Also, I have had plenty of years handling all kinds of weapons, and, I can assure you that the weapon I carry will never have a negligent discharge.

I won't get into a "what if" battle with you. But, I will say that it can also be construed that someone has a concealed weapon if it is not "clearly visible" to a LEO. Also, it will be the interpretation of that LEO whether or not a weapon is "clearly visible" if you get pulled over.

If you mean to say that a weapon is "clearly visible" if it is in your holster, in a cup holder, on a passenger seat (if you have tinted windows), on the floor, or between the seat and the console, I have to say that I do not agree with you if you are comparing it to being on a dashboard. Maybe LEO 229 can shed some light on the "Monster Truck" scenario.

2nd Amendment.........Use it.........Or, lose it!!:X

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I saw that you had mentioned a mat of sort, I've used one similar with a cell phone. Still, it's not as good as being secured in a proper holster. Imagine if you're invovled in a car accident, do you think that mat will be able to hold a firearm in place with the forces involved in a 10mph fender bender? My brother-in-law was involved in an accident and his front windows were down. The accident caused one of his side mirrors to pop off and hit him in the head. Luckily it only crazed him and no permanent damage, but imagine if what hit him was a 2lb piece of steel.

Also, NEVER is a really long time. Sorry but it amazes me how many stories I read of people having NDs who have said, "I never thought it could happen to me". Well Ipersonally think that it CAN happen to me so I stay extra vigilent and hopefully I never get to the point where I think it can't happen to me.

Well the firearm on your dashboard may be "more" visible than say on the passenger seat or the cupholder but I don't believe there are levels of "clearly visible." There is no somewhat "clearly visible", sort-of "clearly visible" or very "clearly visible". It's either "clearly visible" or it's not. And sure the LEO will have the say at the side of the road, but the Judge will have final say on the matter. I'd be amazed if the Judge doesn't throw the case out once they hear that the gun was sitting on the seat or in the cupholder.

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They have kits to drop the bumper on really tall vehicles, but I get your point. Do LEOs ask drivers of 18 wheelers and such to step out of their vehicles at traffic stops? How does that scenario play out?

Can the LEO say that you were concealing when you were in your vehicle before you stepped out?

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