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Thread: Vermont history queries

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    Regular Member Anubis's Avatar
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    I have seen inthreads in this section that both prohibition of carryin certain placesand potential hassles for open carryare the same in Vermont as they are elsewhere.

    Other than those conditions, we outsiders hear that Vermont has no legal restrictions on concealed carry. Has that always been the case? If not, when did the reform occur?

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    Anubis wrote:
    I have seen inthreads in this section that both prohibition of carryin certain placesand potential hassles for open carryare the same in Vermont as they are elsewhere.

    Other than those conditions, we outsiders hear that Vermont has no legal restrictions on concealed carry. Has that always been the case? If not, when did the reform occur?
    State v Rosenthal VT Supreme Court 1903.



    Local town required a letter from the police chief to carry a weapon.

    Unconsitutional because open carry can not be restricted.

    Unconsitutional because state law has no law forbidding the carrying of concealed weapons or firearms.



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    That was a town ordance you are citing,

    We have always had the right ot bear arms, the Vermont State Constitution grants everyone the right to bear arms, it shall not be infringed, requiring a permit is an infringement of your right as granted under the US Constitution, when Vermont drafted it's state Constitution it followed the same.

    Article 16 states;" That the people have a right to bear arms for the defence of
    themselves and the State - and as standing armies in time of
    peace are dangerous to liberty, they ought not to be kept
    up; and that the military should be kept under strict sub-
    ordination to and governed by the civil power."


    Adding as an admendment that protection of hunting, trapping, and fishing is part of the Heritage of being a Vermonter.

    No one cares or will ask if you are carrying, because everyone is. No schools, Post offices, (but we all do and so do the mail carriers) no banks. though again, everyone goes in and out of the ATM with their gun on.

    It's like pants, everyone puts them on everyday here, we don't even notice unless you forget them. LOL>

    http://www.harbornet.com/rights/vermont.txt

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    slickrock wrote:
    no banks.
    I've read through the Vermont firearms statutes a few times and don't remember reading that carry was illegal in banks. Is this true?

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    centercity wrote:
    slickrock wrote:
    no banks.
    I've read through the Vermont firearms statutes a few times and don't remember reading that carry was illegal in banks. Is this true?
    There is no law banning carrying in banks. For those who say so, please cite.

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    Jared wrote:
    centercity wrote:
    slickrock wrote:
    no banks.
    I've read through the Vermont firearms statutes a few times and don't remember reading that carry was illegal in banks. Is this true?
    There is no law banning carrying in banks. For those who say so, please cite.
    The no banks is incorrect, all banks are CCW allowed except for Federal Credit Unions and State Credit Unions. Anywhere else is free game.:celebrate The state of Vermont doesn't have a posting requirement either. So businesses can't post signs saying no CCW/OC allowed. But they do have the private property ownership law, Which gives them the right to ask you to leave. Which you must do when asked. Now if they DO want to go through the hassle of actually posting a No Firearms allowed sign. They have to follow the VSA Building code and have it posted properly. Which is very expensive to do in Vermont. :what: So most businesses don't bother doing it. The limits on CCW/OC are very few and are the minimum preventions that the .Fed and .State are required to follow.

    No CCW/OC in any Federal, State or Municipal Buildings.

    Not in school zones unless attending an event that allows firearms on the school property. IE: Gunshows, Hunters safety course's etc.

    The State fairgrounds.

    Post offices.

    Posted Police Departments. Yes some of our PD's actually allow citizens to carry in there offices.



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    Regular Member Eeyore's Avatar
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    The no banks is incorrect, all banks are CCW allowed except for Federal Credit Unions and State Credit Unions.
    Cite?

    Guns don't kill people. Drivers on cell phones do.

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    Eeyore wrote:
    The no banks is incorrect, all banks are CCW allowed except for Federal Credit Unions and State Credit Unions.
    Cite?
    The name "federal" and "state" in a Credit Unions name really don't mean anything.
    Though I don't know VT law, my guess is Federal Reserve Banks are off limits, just like in the rest of the country
    Rand Paul 2016

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    slickrock wrote:
    That was a town ordance you are citing,


    Umm, if you actually READ the case that I cited above, you would see that the city ordinance went to the State Supreme Court.

    That is the history of Vermont Carry.

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    I OC everywhere, banks, gas stations, grocery stores, burger king, dicks sporting goods to get ammo, ect... never had 1 person say anything to me (usually in rutland area)... Wait, 1 person asked my gun was a glock, then told me that's cool to see someone carry openly, she had never seen it before... so hassles... not that i have seen personally.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    More and more, everyday we see that the normality of what we do is gaining appreciably in most areas. Keep at it - it IS working.

    Vermont has a rich heritage. You all are adding to that in ways your children will one day recognize and appreciate.

    Yata hey
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    McX
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    vermont, and alaska are like rights meccas to me. i am amazed that no entity tried to squelch rights in these states, and that other states haven't seen the sucess of open rights in these 2 states, and patterned their states laws to fit the same.

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    M1911a1lvr wrote:
    No CCW/OC in any Federal, State or Municipal Buildings.

    The State fairgrounds.
    Could you please cite the state statues regarding carrying in State or Municipal building, and also on state fairgrounds. I did not know that VT had such laws.
    "Experience is a wonderful thing. It enables you to recognize a mistake when you make it again"

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    Jay wrote:
    M1911a1lvr wrote:
    No CCW/OC in any Federal, State or Municipal Buildings.

    The State fairgrounds.
    Could you please cite the state statues regarding carrying in State or Municipal building, and also on state fairgrounds. I did not know that VT had such laws.
    Yes Jay you can not carry in any State owned/lease building in the state of Vermont. The only state that I know of that you HAD such a right was NewHampshire. As of now you can still carry in some state buildings just not the state house and some of the complex's in and around the state house. I will post the Vermont Law.

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    Here you go Jay.
    Title 13: Crimes and Criminal Procedure
    Chapter 85: WEAPONS
    § 4003. Carrying dangerous weapons
    A person who carries a dangerous or deadly weapon, openly or concealed, with the intent or avowed purpose of injuring a fellow man, or who carries a dangerous or deadly weapon within any state institution or upon the grounds or lands owned or leased for the use of such institution, without the approval of the warden or superintendent of the institution, shall be imprisoned not more than two years or fined not more than $200.00, or both.


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    NewHampshireNative2005 wrote:
    Here you go Jay.
    Title 13: Crimes and Criminal Procedure
    Chapter 85: WEAPONS
    § 4003. Carrying dangerous weapons
    A person who carries a dangerous or deadly weapon, openly or concealed, with the intent or avowed purpose of injuring a fellow man, or who carries a dangerous or deadly weapon within any state institution or upon the grounds or lands owned or leased for the use of such institution, without the approval of the warden or superintendent of the institution, shall be imprisoned not more than two years or fined not more than $200.00, or both.
    Thank you for the information I did not know this, and I am glad I do since I visit family in Vermont often. One more quick question I assume this is for state buildings only, and does not preclude me from walking into a town hall or on town owned property?
    "Experience is a wonderful thing. It enables you to recognize a mistake when you make it again"

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    Being born and raised in Vermont from what I know that would be a town/city municipal code thing that would keep you from doing so. I know New Hampshire Passed a Law stating only the state has the power to say where you can and cant carry a firearm (RSA 159.26) "159:26 Firearms and Ammunition; Authority of the State. –
    I. To the extent consistent with federal law, the state of New Hampshire shall have authority and jurisdiction over the sale, purchase, ownership, use, possession, transportation, licensing, permitting, taxation, or other matter pertaining to firearms, firearms components, ammunition, or firearms supplies in the state. Except as otherwise specifically provided by statute, no ordinance or regulation of a political subdivision may regulate the sale, purchase, ownership, use, possession, transportation, licensing, permitting, taxation, or other matter pertaining to firearms, firearms components, ammunition, or firearms supplies in the state. Nothing in this section shall be construed as affecting a political subdivision's right to adopt zoning ordinances for the purpose of regulating firearms businesses in the same manner as other businesses or to take any action allowed under RSA 207:59.
    II. Upon the effective date of this section, all municipal ordinances and regulations not authorized under paragraph I relative to the sale, purchase, ownership, use, possession, transportation, licensing, permitting, taxation, or other matter pertaining to firearms, firearm components, ammunition, or firearms supplies shall be null and void.

    Source. 2003, 283:2, eff. July 18, 2003.

    As you can see and read from that law any and all city/town ordinances that had been in fact keeping you from carrying OC/CC in the town/city became void. I remember reading a law on Vermont books that said for the most part the same thing. I will try and find it for you and post it. On another note if the court house is in city hall it becomes a gray area as state law in VT and NH say no firearms in the building. I have been told if the court has it's own entrance and exit and city hall has it's own then you can. But I have not tried it as of yet Claremont,NH city hall and court and police department are all in one huge building. Not sure how it would play out if someone was to carry into the building. Also keep in mind some police departments are posted as gun free zones.

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    I was unable to find it right now But I can always call my family who work for the state and ask them. I will keep looking your best bet would be to call the city and ask them what the gun laws are with in city/town limits. Like Claremont,NH has this old law on the books under parks and Rec.

    "Sec. 12-67. Disorderly conduct.
    (a) No person shall disturb the peace and good order in any park by fighting, quarreling or wrangling with loud voice or shouts, threatening by violence to the person or property of others, or engaging in riotous clamor or tumult.
    (b) No person shall congregate with others in a public place and refuse to comply with a lawful order of the police or the director to disperse or leave the park.
    (c) No person, except peace officers or other law enforcement officers, shall have or carry any pistol, switchblade, hunting knife, slingshot, dagger, metal knuckles or other dangerous weapons concealed on or about his person while in the park.
    (d) No person shall use obscene, profane or abusive language while in the park.
    (e) No person shall loiter in or near toilet buildings or parking areas.
    (Ord. No. 171, § 10(A), 9-14-77)"

    As you can see this City ordinance is no longer lawful as state law ( RSA 159:26) trumps Town/City code. But the city still thinks this code is legal and will not talk with me about it and have told me they will arrest me if I am found with in the park with a gun. I still carry in the parks as they have no case and I am following State law.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    NewHampshireNative2005 wrote:
    Here you go Jay.
    Title 13: Crimes and Criminal Procedure
    Chapter 85: WEAPONS
    § 4003. Carrying dangerous weapons
    A person who carries a dangerous or deadly weapon, openly or concealed, with the intent or avowed purpose of injuring a fellow man,or who carries a dangerous or deadly weapon within any state institution or upon the grounds or lands owned or leased for the use of such institution, without the approval of the warden or superintendent of the institution, shall be imprisoned not more than two years or fined not more than $200.00, or both.
    This snip from the statute would seem to only apply to correctional facilities, not to all state buildings.

    "If you state a rule of law, it is incumbent upon you to try to cite, as best you can, to authority. Citing to authority, using links when available,is what makes OCDO so successful."
    http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum1/1.html

    Please cite the Vermont state statues that say you cannot carry in State or Municipal buildings and state fairgrounds w/link.

    Yata hey


    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Found it for you.

    Still I don't see how this applies to municipalities.

    (14) The commissioner of buildings and general services may promulgate rules and regulations to govern access to and conduct upon the grounds of and within the structures and buildings which fall within his or her jurisdiction. Specifically, and without limitation of the foregoing, the commissioner is empowered to promulgate rules governing access to property; littering; alcoholic beverages and narcotics; soliciting, debt collection and campaigning; photographs for advertising or commercial purposes; pets and animals; and firearms and explosives while in state buildings under his or her jurisdiction or upon the grounds of these buildings, and in or upon property leased to the state and under the jurisdiction of the commissioner.

    http://www.leg.state.vt.us/statutes/...;Section=00152

    Yata hey

    P.S. BTW In Virginia we can carry in state and municipal buildings w/few exceptions like courts. I regularly carry at city council meetings, the state capital and our General Assembly Buildings.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    The law that i posted is not just for correctional officers and prisons. it's for all I called the state house and they sited the same law. I then followed it up with a call to the state police and they sited the same law. I then called My dad who works in the state house with the governor and they looked into and cited the same law. So I had the law right. So you can think what you would like But I know the law and if you try and carrier in a state owned or leased building or LAND ( State fair grounds) you will go to jail. As for this law pertaining to municipality's I said it did NOT unless it's a state owned/leased building in the town. I'm in Vermont everyday for family or for fun and I can tell you while Vermont seems to have no gun laws it does. City's and towns are passing their own gun laws. So we can play who has the bigger stick and who can use goolge better to find stuff on the internet all day long if you would like grapshot. But intill you come up here and live it let the locals be.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    NewHampshireNative2005 wrote:
    The law that i posted is not just for correctional officers and prisons. it's for all I called the state house and they sited the same law. I then followed it up with a call to the state police and they sited the same law. I then called My dad who works in the state house with the governor and they looked into and cited the same law. So I had the law right. So you can think what you would like But I know the law and if you try and carrier in a state owned or leased building or LAND ( State fair grounds) you will go to jail. As for this law pertaining to municipality's I said it did NOT unless it's a state owned/leased building in the town. I'm in Vermont everyday for family or for fun and I can tell you while Vermont seems to have no gun laws it does. City's and towns are passing their own gun laws. So we can play who has the bigger stick and who can use goolge better to find stuff on the internet all day long if you would like grapshot. But intill you come up here and live it let the locals be.
    I do not disagree with the bottom line (not on state property), but disagree with the acceptability of source/cited data. Tell you what - find me somebody, that was prosecuted under your source and link it here. Would very much like to see which "warden or superintendent" testified that he had not given approval and at which "institution" this infraction occurred. Perhaps your dad can be instrumental in getting your AG's opinion on the matter. Since you "know the law", can we expect you will be your own attorney if the need arises?

    Most of us have long ago learned to not ask opinions of LEO, politicians or relatives and then quote them as gospel. They are all to frequently faulty in their knowledge on such matters and hearsay responses are not considered cites.

    I was not the poster that asked you about other municipalities and state fair - poster Jay was - I only repeated his request because you had not answered him. Suggest you reread the thread.

    [line]I do not consider this a contest as to "who has the bigger stick and who can use goolge better" but am being purely objective. Vermont statutes regarding guns are at best difficult to locate and relate one to the other when one does not deal with them regularly.

    I neither insulted you nor spoke disparagingly to you. Suggest that as a matter of OCDO rules and common civility you do likewise. My goal is to perpetuate the standards of OCDO, learn as much as I can and share that knowledge wherever and whenever possible. If that is too altruistic for you, the problem is not mine.

    Insofar as "letting the locals be," I have found a vast majority of the people there to be very open and friendly, even accommodating. Neither am I going to wait until I live there to better understand the laws - hope to make a trip up in the near future.

    More to the last point, NO participant is restricted, barred or discouraged from any sub-forum because they do not reside in that state - all are welcome as they should be. We share and help each other - that is the strength of OCDO.

    [line]BTW - you may prove to be right on which statute provides the enforcement. If that is the case, I am appalled at the extremely poor wording and can see a legitimate challenge possibility. IANAL

    Yata hey

    Edited to clarify verbiage and disclaimer.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Jay wrote:
    M1911a1lvr wrote:
    No CCW/OC in any Federal, State or Municipal Buildings.

    The State fairgrounds.
    Could you please cite the state statues regarding carrying in State or Municipal building, and also on state fairgrounds. I did not know that VT had such laws.
    Jay the answer to carrying in state buildings appears to be normally "no" based upon earlier on going discussion and cites.


    Municipalities are totally preempted regarding firearms except for a few things like discharge - see below
    .
    Vermont Statutes Annotated title 24, § 2295 states:
    Except as otherwise provided by law, no town, city or incorporated village, by ordinance, resolution or other enactment, shall directly regulate hunting, fishing and trapping or the possession, ownership, transportation, transfer, sale, purchase, carrying, licensing or registration of traps, firearms, ammunition or components of firearms or ammunition. This section shall not limit the powers conferred upon a town, city or incorporated village under section 2291(8) of this title. The provisions of this section shall supersede any inconsistent provisions of a municipal charter.

    I do not know the answer to the state fair or the why of it.

    Yata hey

    Edited to correct links.

    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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