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Thread: First post... stopped for OC in Willowick ohio

  1. #1
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    In Willowick, OH I was walking down the street and was approached from behind by a police cruiser. I was told to put my hands on my head and to get on my knees, for officer safety I would assume. The officer told me that he was stopping me for carrying a weapon. He stated that a local resident called them to say that I was carrying a firearm. Within a few seconds there were 4 other officers on the scene each with their own vehicle. 1 vehicle was unmarked but it was driven by a uniformed officer. I explained to them that I was not doing anything illegal. The sergeant that showed up stated that I was doing something illegal and that I was infact inducing a panic. I have heard before that this is what officers would say about an openly carried weapon in public. I explained to them that this right is guaranteed to me by the Constitution of the United States of America and that the state of Ohio has even greater protections for the right to bear arms and that I am not here to cause a problem. I was just going to get lunch, and would like to do so in peace. They were notified that I have an CCW permit in the state of Ohio. He told me that I have the permit and that I have to carry concealed. One of the officers said, "what do you think people are going to think when they see you carrying that gun on your hip down the street? With all of the things that have been happening in the media. You know how people are." I stated that he was carrying a gun and that didn't seem to alarm people and that most people who encounter me are very friendly and ask questions about OC'ing. To which he responded that he has a badge and a uniform. The conversation ended with basically I am not allowed to OC in Willowick. The sergeant stated that he was not a gun grabber, but that this was just not acceptable to be OC'ing around here.

    I have to hand it to most of the officers for being kind of friendly. The sergeant that I was dealing with was the one driving the situation and was very stern throughout the confrontation. I was not disarmed and was carrying two pistols (Sig P229 OC, Glock 27 CC undershirt). I really respect them for not disarming me.

    On a lighter note:
    One of the officers told me I would be better off carrying another mag for the Sig instead of the Glock, but I was carrying another mag for the Sig already. He got a laugh out of it as did I. Another officer said that I was more well armed than any of them..and another chimed in "not quite". I didn't see what he was carrying because he was behind me, but I'll take his word for it.


    I have the confrontation recorded and converted to mp3. The recording ended at 9:59 seconds, but there was not much of interest after that. The officer basically made me aware that I was not to OC anymore because I would be charged with inducing a panic. I know I did not cover the entire conversation in this post there was a good amount more to it, but I just wanted to get this out there.

    I really have to say that I am more than a little intimidated to OC around here anymore. I do have my CCW, but I like to open carry for the comfort (no IWB) and I enjoy educating the lay person of their rights. I don't want to be a test case. Any thoughts, Ideas?

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    I wouldn't hesitate to contact this officer's superior and inform him/her of what happened. This is unacceptable behavior as you weren't doing anything illegal. His threat that you would be charged with inducing panic is just that... a threat. If they were going to charge you with inducing panic they would have. Don't be bullied but don't be a dick either. Just contact some higher ups and go from there. I wouldn't drop it where the situation ended but that's just my opinion. Having you get on your knees on the city street is also uncalled for but others may disagree.

    And welcome to the board. I haven't been here too long but have gained exponential amounts of education from the rest of the group. I hope you stick around and clear this matter with your local police department.

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    The sergeant that showed up stated that I was doing something illegal
    Lie.


    and that I was in fact inducing a panic.
    Lie.

    He told me that I have the permit and that I have to carry concealed.
    Lie.

    One of the officers said, "what do you think people are going to think when they see you carrying that gun on your hip down the street?
    Hopefully they will think, "Now there's a guy who values his rights."

    To which he responded that he has a badge and a uniform. The conversation ended with basically I am not allowed to OC in Willowick.
    Lie.

    The sergeant stated that he was not a gun grabber, but that this was just not acceptable to be OC'ing around here.
    That may be his opinion. But it is not the law.

    The officer basically made me aware that I was not to OC anymore because I would be charged with inducing a panic.
    Well, it's true you might be charged. But it would be a false charge, and probably a case of Deprivation of Rights Under Color of Law.


    I really have to say that I am more than a little intimidated to OC around here anymore. I do have my CCW, but I like to open carry for the comfort (no IWB) and I enjoy educating the lay person of their rights. I don't want to be a test case. Any thoughts, Ideas?
    Yes... continue to open carry. If the LEOs harass you again, get a lawyer and sue the pants off them.

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    Welcome to the forum. It is a bummer that your first post is about a negative experience. It sounds like you know that it is legal. are you familiar with the court cases and ORC sections as well? All of thatshould be included in an OFFICIAL complaint.

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    He stated that a local resident called them to say that I was carrying a firearm.
    Florida v. J.L., 529 U.S. 266 (2000), held that law enforcement cannot stop and frisk a citizen based soley on an anonymous tip describing only innocent behavior and which also does not sufficiently predict the future actions of its subject.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Florida_v._J.L.

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    Ohio Patriot wrote:
    SNIP Yes... continue to open carry. If the LEOs harass you again, get a lawyer and sue the pants off them.

    Welcome to OCDO!

    Depending on your circumstances, you could get a lawyer to write a letter to the police chief laying out the law for him. I understand this gets people's attention and lets them know you are for real and are quite serious. Expect to pay for it though.

    It may work to just make a carefully crafted complaint that lays out the violations of 4th Amendment case law and the incorrect information they gave you (with citations to the actual law). I would recommend that the least you do is make a complaint like this.

    Well done on getting it recorded. It'll make it hard for the Sergeant to evade an internal inquiry into his conduct.

    Welcome to 2nd Amendment activism. Some police knuckleheads just showed exactly where your next activism project lies, and where you need to apply pressure.

    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Thanks for the support. I am going to continue carrying, albeit concealed for the time being. They really got me scared I don't want them doing anything stupid. I have a 100% clean record and I just want to go about my business.

    Would there be anything to be gained by posting the MP3 that I recorded during the incident? I'd like to get the word out, but I don't want to make trouble. I would have asked for all of their names and badge numbers, but I was too intimidated by the way that I was detained by them to ask for fear that they would try to find something to charge me with if they thought that I would seek legal action against them. All I have is my recording.

    I will be contacting the Lake County Prosecutor and seeing if I can get an official statement made to the local police departments that what I am doing is perfectly legal and that there is no reason for alarm. Any advice on actions to take on this situation?

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    1. We'd be curious to hear the recording; but I think you've covered the bases already.

    2.Write thecomplaint.

    3. Talking to the prosecutor might help. I don't have enough experience to judge its usefulness or correctness.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    this is where the mp3 is at.

    http://ofcc.crufflecarp.org/mp3/2008-06-17_14_45_05-0001.mp3


    link location revised with longer complete mp3

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    The officer says, "We're not saying you can't... we're saying, why would you?"

    At this point, it's not longer about the cop enforcing the law and it's all about the cop enforcing his opinion which is NOT HIS JOB. If he wants to enforce his opinion, he should seek office and try to create legislation.

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    Oh and with regards to him telling you if you have a concealed license, it means you HAVE to conceal -- apply that to a different scenario. If you have a DRIVERS license, does that then mean you're no longer allowed to walk around the corner?

    Outside of the officers unlawfully stopping you (with regards to Florida v. J.L), I wish they'd stick to enforcing the law and not their opinion.



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    I just listen to the recording.. the cursing done by the one police officer is very unprofessional.

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    Inducing panic huh?

    Perhaps you should print out a copy of the relevent Ohio Law to keep handy for your next encounter.

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    I just listened to it. I am really mad.

    Tell ya what, let's have an open carry walk in Willowick, OH. We did it in Urbana a couple months ago, and it was a great success:

    http://ohioccwforums.org/viewtopic.php?t=18546

    Anyone else with me? Lthrnck? I don't care about the cost of gas. This is more important. I'll make the drive. I have a van, so I carpool for anyone living in SW Ohio.

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    Man. That is WAY too far for me concidering my family situation. I will, however, paypal some gas money to the driver of a carpool.

    I can also, as an Ohio resident who values preemption, write to the police department up there, and let them know about ORC 9.68:



    9.68 Right to bear arms - challenge to law.

    (A) The individual right to keep and bear arms, being a fundamental individual right that predates the United States Constitution and Ohio Constitution, and being a constitutionally protected right in every part of Ohio, the general assembly finds the need to provide uniform laws throughout the state regulating the ownership, possession, purchase, other acquisition, transport, storage, carrying, sale, or other transfer of firearms, their components, and their ammunition. Except as specifically provided by the United States Constitution, Ohio Constitution, state law, or federal law, a person, without further license, permission, restriction, delay, or process, may own, possess, purchase, sell, transfer, transport, store, or keep any firearm, part of a firearm, its components, and its ammunition.

    (B) In addition to any other relief provided, the court shall award costs and reasonable attorney fees to any person, group, or entity that prevails in a challenge to an ordinance, rule, or regulation as being in conflict with this section.

    (C) As used in this section:

    (1) The possession, transporting, or carrying of firearms, their components, or their ammunition include, but are not limited to, the possession, transporting, or carrying, openly or concealed on a person’s person or concealed ready at hand, of firearms, their components, or their ammunition.

    (2) “Firearm” has the same meaning as in section 2923.11 of the Revised Code.

    (D) This section does not apply to either of the following:

    (1) A zoning ordinance that regulates or prohibits the commercial sale of firearms, firearm components, or ammunition for firearms in areas zoned for residential or agricultural uses;

    (2) A zoning ordinance that specifies the hours of operation or the geographic areas where the commercial sale of firearms, firearm components, or ammunition for firearms may occur, provided that the zoning ordinance is consistent with zoning ordinances for other retail establishments in the same geographic area and does not result in a de facto prohibition of the commercial sale of firearms, firearm components, or ammunition for firearms in areas zoned for commercial, retail, or industrial uses.

    Effective Date: 03-14-2007

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    If he uses either his authority as an officer or an unrelated statute to pressure you into not exercercising your constitutional right, then that is a clear color of law issue.

    http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/2921.45

    2921.45 Interfering with civil rights.

    (A) No public servant, under color of his office, employment, or authority, shall knowingly deprive, or conspire or attempt to deprive any person of a constitutional or statutory right.

    (B) Whoever violates this section is guilty of interfering with civil rights, a misdemeanor of the first degree.
    Definitely talk to his superiors.

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    Ohio Patriot wrote:
    I just listened to it. I am really mad.

    Tell ya what, let's have an open carry walk in Willowick, OH. We did it in Urbana a couple months ago, and it was a great success:

    http://ohioccwforums.org/viewtopic.php?t=18546

    Anyone else with me? Lthrnck? I don't care about the cost of gas. This is more important. I'll make the drive. I have a van, so I carpool for anyone living in SW Ohio.
    Let's go. If my wife can't go, I guess I'll OC 2 pistols.

    The only reason to get a permit in Ohio is Vehicle Carry.

    What will the police say when I stand by my open trunk, load one mag of hollow points, go red, holster, then load 2 more?
    document.write('[img]/images/emoticons/banana.gif[/img]');[img]images/emoticons/banana.gif[/img]

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    WOW, I just listened to the recording (excient job for getting that BTW!)

    First off, there was really no need for the one "officer" to use the language or talk to you the way he did. You were professional the whole recording, why couldn't he be professional? All the boasting he did about how he taught the class and he doesn’t even understand the law. Was this the sergeant?
    You should file a complaint, write the police chief, mayor, anyone else you can find. Let them listen to the recording so they know they have a problem. According to the city of Willowick’s website, the Mayor is also the Safety Director. This is totally UNACCEPTIABLE! Stand up for those rights!!


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    Ohio Patriot wrote:
    I just listened to it. I am really mad.

    Tell ya what, let's have an open carry walk in Willowick, OH. We did it in Urbana a couple months ago, and it was a great success:

    http://ohioccwforums.org/viewtopic.php?t=18546

    Anyone else with me? Lthrnck? I don't care about the cost of gas. This is more important. I'll make the drive. I have a van, so I carpool for anyone living in SW Ohio.
    I would go!:celebrate

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    Two things - first, what equipment did you use to get the recording and how did you start it withuout them becomming concerned that you were reaching for something?

    Second, I didn't see anyone address the "inducing a panic" theory of the cops. Keep in mind that legally doing something (OCing) is never grounds for inducing a panic:

    ORC 2917.31 - Inducing panic(http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/2917.31) states:





    (A) No person shall cause the evacuation of any public place, or otherwise cause serious public inconvenience or alarm, by doing any of the following:
    (1) Initiating or circulating a report or warning of an alleged or impending fire, explosion, crime, or other catastrophe, knowing that such report or warning is false;
    (2) Threatening to commit any offense of violence;
    (3) Committing any offense, with reckless disregard of the likelihood that its commission will cause serious public inconvenience or alarm.

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    rDigital wrote:
    In Willowick, OH I was walking down the street and was approached from behind by a police cruiser. I was told to put my hands on my head and to get on my knees, for officer safety I would assume. The officer told me that he was stopping me for carrying a weapon. He stated that a local resident called them to say that I was carrying a firearm. Within a few seconds there were 4 other officers on the scene each with their own vehicle. 1 vehicle was unmarked but it was driven by a uniformed officer. I explained to them that I was not doing anything illegal. The sergeant that showed up stated that I was doing something illegal and that I was infact inducing a panic. I have heard before that this is what officers would say about an openly carried weapon in public. I explained to them that this right is guaranteed to me by the Constitution of the United States of America and that the state of Ohio has even greater protections for the right to bear arms and that I am not here to cause a problem. I was just going to get lunch, and would like to do so in peace. They were notified that I have an CCW permit in the state of Ohio. He told me that I have the permit and that I have to carry concealed. One of the officers said, "what do you think people are going to think when they see you carrying that gun on your hip down the street? With all of the things that have been happening in the media. You know how people are." I stated that he was carrying a gun and that didn't seem to alarm people and that most people who encounter me are very friendly and ask questions about OC'ing. To which he responded that he has a badge and a uniform. The conversation ended with basically I am not allowed to OC in Willowick. The sergeant stated that he was not a gun grabber, but that this was just not acceptable to be OC'ing around here.

    I have to hand it to most of the officers for being kind of friendly. The sergeant that I was dealing with was the one driving the situation and was very stern throughout the confrontation. I was not disarmed and was carrying two pistols (Sig P229 OC, Glock 27 CC undershirt). I really respect them for not disarming me.

    On a lighter note:
    One of the officers told me I would be better off carrying another mag for the Sig instead of the Glock, but I was carrying another mag for the Sig already. He got a laugh out of it as did I. Another officer said that I was more well armed than any of them..and another chimed in "not quite". I didn't see what he was carrying because he was behind me, but I'll take his word for it.


    I have the confrontation recorded and converted to mp3. The recording ended at 9:59 seconds, but there was not much of interest after that. The officer basically made me aware that I was not to OC anymore because I would be charged with inducing a panic. I know I did not cover the entire conversation in this post there was a good amount more to it, but I just wanted to get this out there.

    I really have to say that I am more than a little intimidated to OC around here anymore. I do have my CCW, but I like to open carry for the comfort (no IWB) and I enjoy educating the lay person of their rights. I don't want to be a test case. Any thoughts, Ideas?
    OK, now you have to make a comapoint against the Sergeant for the (1) non-consensual nature of the stop and (2) editorializing against your right to open carry. Just do it. The police bureacracy will then have to consider the issue and figure out what they are going to do about lawful open carry.

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    Mike wrote:
    SNIP (1) non-consensual nature of the stop
    Gosh, you're being nice about it, Mike. I admire your reserve.

    I'd be up in arms, using language like, "ILLEGAL SEIZURE OF AN AMERICAN CITIZEN ON THE STREETS OF AMERICA!!"

    (see Terry vs Ohio for whether a Terry Stop/nonconsensual encounter/detention is a seizure of the person for purposes of the 4th Amendment.)
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    I have a basic problem with the police preferring (or threatening to prefer) such charges, absent a complaint.

    -ljp

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    I made the recording with an iPhone. I believe that the officer thought I was trying to call someone. I was scared when I saw the cruiser pull up behind me. I have heard the horror storied about people being unfairly treated by LEOs and wanted to make sure people would believe me. Without the recording the encounter it is my word against theirs. With the recording there is no debate.

    I am deeply offended by the actions taken by the officers of the Willowick police department. If you carry concealed or openly carry a recording device from now on. I used the phone as a last minute idea when the officer pulled up behind me. I will make sure to have it ready for any future encounters.

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    Ohio Patriot wrote:
    I just listened to it. I am really mad.

    Tell ya what, let's have an open carry walk in Willowick, OH. We did it in Urbana a couple months ago, and it was a great success:

    http://ohioccwforums.org/viewtopic.php?t=18546

    Anyone else with me? Lthrnck? I don't care about the cost of gas. This is more important. I'll make the drive. I have a van, so I carpool for anyone living in SW Ohio.
    Dammit, I wish I could do something like that. If I'm off work though my wife's working and I'm watching the kids.

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