First post... stopped for OC in Willowick ohio

Mike · Jun 18, 2008

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rDigital wrote:

In Willowick, OH I was walking down the street and was approached from behind by a police cruiser. I was told to put my hands on my head and to get on my knees, for officer safety I would assume. The officer told me that he was stopping me for carrying a weapon. He stated that a local resident called them to say that I was carrying a firearm. Within a few seconds there were 4 other officers on the scene each with their own vehicle. 1 vehicle was unmarked but it was driven by a uniformed officer. I explained to them that I was not doing anything illegal. The sergeant that showed up stated that I was doing something illegal and that I was infact inducing a panic. I have heard before that this is what officers would say about an openly carried weapon in public. I explained to them that this right is guaranteed to me by the Constitution of the United States of America and that the state of Ohio has even greater protections for the right to bear arms and that I am not here to cause a problem. I was just going to get lunch, and would like to do so in peace. They were notified that I have an CCW permit in the state of Ohio. He told me that I have the permit and that I have to carry concealed. One of the officers said, "what do you think people are going to think when they see you carrying that gun on your hip down the street? With all of the things that have been happening in the media. You know how people are." I stated that he was carrying a gun and that didn't seem to alarm people and that most people who encounter me are very friendly and ask questions about OC'ing. To which he responded that he has a badge and a uniform. The conversation ended with basically I am not allowed to OC in Willowick. The sergeant stated that he was not a gun grabber, but that this was just not acceptable to be OC'ing around here.

I have to hand it to most of the officers for being kind of friendly. The sergeant that I was dealing with was the one driving the situation and was very stern throughout the confrontation. I was not disarmed and was carrying two pistols (Sig P229 OC, Glock 27 CC undershirt). I really respect them for not disarming me.

On a lighter note:
One of the officers told me I would be better off carrying another mag for the Sig instead of the Glock, but I was carrying another mag for the Sig already. He got a laugh out of it as did I. Another officer said that I was more well armed than any of them..and another chimed in "not quite". I didn't see what he was carrying because he was behind me, but I'll take his word for it.

I have the confrontation recorded and converted to mp3. The recording ended at 9:59 seconds, but there was not much of interest after that. The officer basically made me aware that I was not to OC anymore because I would be charged with inducing a panic. I know I did not cover the entire conversation in this post there was a good amount more to it, but I just wanted to get this out there.

I really have to say that I am more than a little intimidated to OC around here anymore. I do have my CCW, but I like to open carry for the comfort (no IWB) and I enjoy educating the lay person of their rights. I don't want to be a test case. Any thoughts, Ideas?

OK, now you have to make a comapoint against the Sergeant for the (1) non-consensual nature of the stop and (2) editorializing against your right to open carry. Just do it. The police bureacracy will then have to consider the issue and figure out what they are going to do about lawful open carry.

Citizen · Jun 18, 2008

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Mike wrote:

SNIP (1) non-consensual nature of the stop

Gosh, you're being nice about it, Mike. I admire your reserve.

I'd be up in arms, using language like, "ILLEGAL SEIZURE OF AN AMERICAN CITIZEN ON THE STREETS OF AMERICA!!"

(see Terry vs Ohio for whether a Terry Stop/nonconsensual encounter/detention is a seizure of the person for purposes of the 4th Amendment.)

Legba · Jun 18, 2008

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I have a basic problem with the police preferring (or threatening to prefer) such charges, absent a complaint.

-ljp

rDigital · Jun 18, 2008

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I made the recording with an iPhone. I believe that the officer thought I was trying to call someone. I was scared when I saw the cruiser pull up behind me. I have heard the horror storied about people being unfairly treated by LEOs and wanted to make sure people would believe me. Without the recording the encounter it is my word against theirs. With the recording there is no debate.

I am deeply offended by the actions taken by the officers of the Willowick police department. If you carry concealed or openly carry a recording device from now on. I used the phone as a last minute idea when the officer pulled up behind me. I will make sure to have it ready for any future encounters.

MetalChris · Jun 18, 2008

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Ohio Patriot wrote:

I just listened to it. I am really mad. :cuss:

Tell ya what, let's have an open carry walk in Willowick, OH. We did it in Urbana a couple months ago, and it was a great success:

http://ohioccwforums.org/viewtopic.php?t=18546

Anyone else with me? Lthrnck? I don't care about the cost of gas. This is more important. I'll make the drive. I have a van, so I carpool for anyone living in SW Ohio.

Dammit, I wish I could do something like that. If I'm off work though my wife's working and I'm watching the kids.

jmelvin · Jun 18, 2008

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rDigital it's good to have you here and good to see Ohioans exercising their right to carry openly. You seem to have a good understanding of the laws and you represented yourself fairly well during your stop. Now it's your turn to use the laws that are their to protect citizens from abuse by the government and ensure that not only your rights, but others rights are not violated by police, who clearly do not have a grasp of Ohio law. Perhaps if there are more and more Ohio police departments that have to pay large sums to understand that open carry is perfectly legal, they'll quit hassling those folk who just want to go about their lives in a peaceable and lawful manner. Good luck in all that you pursue!

From a former Ohioan,

jmelvin

v8shoguy · Jun 18, 2008

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I listened to the recording last night and had all day to stew on it. What a joke!

To paraphrase:

LEO 1: "I teach the class and this isn't what we teach"
"Who told you this was a good idea?"
"Do you want me to call the Sheriff right now and have this revoked, since you're not abiding by the terms of it?"

LEO 2: "We're not saying you can't, but why would you?"

Anyone else catch the contridiction offered by the two officers?

And last, my favorite sound byte of the whole thing:

"Well I have a badge and a uniform."

So did the city bus driver I saw today in McDonald's!!

Ohio Patriot · Jun 18, 2008

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Here's a more active thread on it:

http://ohioccwforums.org/viewtopic.php?t=20648

As for an open carry walk, I'm all for it. I'm thinking July 5th.

J_5 · Jun 18, 2008

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Ohio Patriot wrote:

Here's a more active thread on it:

http://ohioccwforums.org/viewtopic.php?t=20648

As for an open carry walk, I'm all for it. I'm thinking June 5th.

Glad someone posted this, they are just as fired up as everyone else.

Would that be July 5th?

reefteach · Jun 18, 2008

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Ohio Patriot wrote:

Here's a more active thread on it:

http://ohioccwforums.org/viewtopic.php?t=20648

As for an open carry walk, I'm all for it. I'm thinking June 5th.

While I can't attend, I was wondering if an informal picnic, like the one done up north, might be more convenient for people:

http://www.mlive.com/flintjournal/index.ssf/2008/06/openly_carrying_their_guns_gro.html

Pistols in their holsters and holsters on their hips, a small group of people who believe in the right to openly carry -- loaded handguns, that is -- met today at Kelly Lake Park for a picnic and spread the word about their unorthodox beliefs. "We don't do this for attention or to show off," said retired postal worker Jerry Brewer, 55, of Owosso. "We just purely want to educate."

At about noon, a group of about six open-carry advocates gathered in a picnic area in the nearly empty park, with just an angler or two across the lake.

Jeffs said the open-carry group grew to about 16 or 17 later in the afternoon and that a few park-goers stopped to ask questions.

Benthall said Friday that Burton police weren't going to react to the group meeting in public, nor have a police presence at the park, unless they received a call. Benthall said he had contact with members of opencarry.org about an open carry and meeting in Burton.

Seemed effective.

Ohio Patriot · Jun 19, 2008

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J_5 wrote:

Ohio Patriot wrote:

Here's a more active thread on it:

http://ohioccwforums.org/viewtopic.php?t=20648

As for an open carry walk, I'm all for it. I'm thinking June 5th.

Click to expand...

Glad someone posted this, they are just as fired up as everyone else.

Would that be July 5th?

Yea, July 5th.

But let's put the OC walk on hold for a moment. The mods on the Ohio CCW site are in the process of talking with the Police Chief and Mayor. If Mr. Ledford doesn't receive an apology, or if the offending officer does not undergo training, then an open carry walk will definitely be in the works.

So to make a long story short, the OC walk is on "hold" for the moment.

longwatch · Jun 28, 2008

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Just saw this, sorry it happened, but good on you for your composure in standing up for your rights.

jack · Jun 28, 2008

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Excellent job bud ! File the complaint the officers are dead wrong on everything everything theysaid and I really don't think the chief will find their language very professional. He took God'sname in vain on a stop of a citizen what 10-25 times ? Complain about that as well.

rDigital · Jun 29, 2008

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Please stay with us on this one. There are a lot of things in motion that have to be kept behind the scenes for right now, but I assure that action is being taken on this subject.

Please stay tuned.

all info will be first distributed by OFCC ohioccw.org in the forums.

Gunslinger · Jun 29, 2008

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eacurtis wrote:

Two things - first, what equipment did you use to get the recording and how did you start it withuout them becomming concerned that you were reaching for something?

Second, I didn't see anyone address the "inducing a panic" theory of the cops. Keep in mind that legally doing something (OCing) is never grounds for inducing a panic:

ORC 2917.31 - Inducing panic (http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/2917.31) states:

(A) No person shall cause the evacuation of any public place, or otherwise cause serious public inconvenience or alarm, by doing any of the following:
(1) Initiating or circulating a report or warning of an alleged or impending fire, explosion, crime, or other catastrophe, knowing that such report or warning is false;
(2) Threatening to commit any offense of violence;
(3) Committing any offense, with reckless disregard of the likelihood that its commission will cause serious public inconvenience or alarm.

If they arrested you, the case would be tossed per (3) above--thanx for the post! Then you can file a suit for malicious prosecution as the cops were overt in their effort to intimidate you for no lawful purpose, this is malice. Haven't listened to the recording yet, but it seems as if it would support your case very strongly. File a complaint with the Mayor and Chief of Police and inform them you will not be subject to intimidation for exercising your rights under the US and OH constitutions. And if you are, you will take appropriate legal action action BOTH of them, the city and the cops in Federal and or state court.

Tomahawk · Jun 29, 2008

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The link to the mp3 recording appears to be broken. Anybody got a better one?

Nevermind, I figured it out.

Tomahawk · Jun 29, 2008

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Wow, that one cop telling you "your gonna stay on your knees all goddammed day and argue with me" needs a serious attitude adjustment. Really gets the steam coming out your ears to listen to that.

I've got half a mind myself to drive up there and help out, but it's a bit too far.

I realize you were trying to be cooperative and all, but as soon as they started cursing and telling you you were breaking some imaginary law, I might have been inclined to stop talking. I see no reason to discuss my job, private life, reason for exercising my rights, or any other personal business with such abusive government officials.

Get together with your local grass-roots organization and let them guide you through what steps you need to take next. Good luck, and good job on the recording.

UTOC-45-44 · Jun 29, 2008

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Tomahawk wrote:

The link to the mp3 recording appears to be broken. Anybody got a better one?

Nevermind, I figured it out.

I didn't figure it out

. Can't listen to it.:X

TJ

Tomahawk · Jun 29, 2008

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Try this:

http://ofcc.crufflecarp.org/mp3/2008-06-17_14_45_05-0001.mp3

rDigital · Jun 29, 2008

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"the best speeches are made on the way home"

I know there are things that could have been stated differently, but I was honestly scared to death because of the way that they were acting towards me. I put a lot of time into learning carry laws. As of late, I have been putting time into learning how to use the bill of rights in the U.S. Rest assured that any future encounter ,which I hope to never have, will have much less personal info divulged as well as "am i free to go?" being asked constantly throughout the encounter.

Thank you for updating the link I have updated my post as well.
http://ofcc.crufflecarp.org/mp3/2008-06-17_14_45_05-0001.mp3

First post... stopped for OC in Willowick ohio

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