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Child stomped to death as onlookers draw their... cell phones

imperialism2024

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USAF_MetalChris wrote:
I wonder what would've happened if one of us had shot an unarmed man that was beating a child? I wonder if we'd be going home that night or spending the next 25-40 years in a federal facility?
I'm half surprised that the headline wasn't "Police Shoot Unarmed Man"

Anyhow, it's a terrible thing to have happened. I'd like to think that people didn't stop solely because they were disarmed... If I see a man violently beating a child on the side of the road, my first thought would be that he is deranged and a threat to my safety if I stop. Fortunately, even though Pennsylvania keeps me disarmed of a handgun, I would have the option of stopping, grabbing my trunk gun of choice, and stopping the threat at that point. But I could understand how the sh**ple could assume that if he were engaging in this kind of horrendous behavior, he most likely was carrying a weapon as well.

Or they were just typical sh**ple who were too wrapped up in their cell phone call to bother observing their surroundings.
 

CA_Libertarian

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http://www.modbee.com/local/story/331286.html

TURLOCK -- The toddler who was beaten to death on a dark country road Saturday night was killed by his father, authorities said Monday. The father, Sergio Aguiar, 27, of Turlock was killed with a single shot to the forehead fired by Modesto police officer Jerry Ramar, who was dropped on the scene in rural Stanislaus County from a helicopter as Aguiar kicked and stomped the small boy's head.
Two days after the attack that has gained national notoriety, neighbors wrestled with hard questions without answers. Was Aguiar on drugs? Mentally ill? Most only seemed to know the man was quiet and worked at FoodMaxx on Fulkerth Road.
On Saturday night, a different picture emerged.
Aguiar had parked his gold 2002 Toyota pickup in the eastbound lane, into traffic, and viciously attacked the motionless child as passers-by frantically dialed 911 and tried to stop him. Aguiar seemed calm and spoke of "demons" in the boy. He has no criminal history, authorities said.
The 2-year-old boy later was pronounced dead at Emanuel Medical Center in Turlock.
Deputy Rob Latapie, 39, flying a Sheriff's Department helicopter, turned a spotlight on the scene and saw Aguiar kicking the child "like a soccer ball" and immediately made the decision to land in a cow pasture. Ramar, the flight tactical officer, jumped from the helicopter and ran about 20 yards, his duty weapon drawn, before reaching a set of barbed-wire and electric fences. He commanded Aguiar to stop. Aguiar raised his middle finger and kicked the baby again. Ramar fired a single shot, killing Aguiar instantly, police said.
"I'm proud of my flight officer," Latapie said Monday. "Making a shot like that, under those conditions, in a low-light, high-stress condition, is almost unheard of. There aren't a lot of people who can make a shot like that in daylight at the range."
Ramar said any officer would have done what he did.
"I'm just a regular cop trying to do a regular cop's job," he said.
Birth records show the boy was born May 8, 2006, at Emanuel. His name has not been released, but a manager at the Turlock apartment complex where the mother, Frances Liliana Casian, and son live said he was named after the father: Sergio.
Neighbors said investigators visited the building late Saturday. The mother and child always have been quiet and kept to themselves, they said. It is unclear whether Aguiar lived in the complex. His name is not on the lease, nor listed as an emergency contact or frequent visitor.
Two miles away, four cars clustered outside the toddler's grandparents' home off Fulkerth. Sitting on a couch in a dark living room, shades drawn, Casian was surrounded by older women in dark clothing. Eyes heavy, everyone looked as if they'd been crying. Asked if she wanted to talk Monday, the mother was short, clipped, "No. No." Pictures of family and children, including a smiling baby boy, lined the foyer by the front door.
"What an unspeakable crime," Stanislaus County Sheriff Adam Christianson said. "We may never know why the suspect beat that child to death. We hope to find out, but it's going to take a lot more work."
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Open carry could have saved this little boy's life. Cops on the phone can't save lives. Guns on the belt can. This, my friends, is why open carry is so important.

ETA: the article says police believe the boy was dead before he was dragged out of the truck and beaten in front of onlookers. Still, you would think a real effort would be put forth to stop this psycho... just in case the boy was still alive.
 

Citizen

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I've been thinking about the bystanders for a little while, and holding my tongue. Guess I'll sound off and start a debate or get flamed.

I suspect the toddler was already dead. Unless the first bystander happened to be right there when the truck stopped and he dragged the kid out, the child was likely dead or beyond help from the first or second bash/kick/etc.

I don't know that I would have intervened, unarmed,if I happened upon it and saw a bloody mess being kicked around. If the guy was as psychotic as they say, he'll probably turn his rage on anyone who tries to intervene. Lets face it, he was trying to destroy the kid, not just kill him, but utterly destroy him. That is lethal force in anybody's book, which just means any bystander would get lethal force unleashed on him.

Much as I might be angered or outraged by such behavior, I don't think, unarmed, I would be willing to risk adding my name to his list of victims.
 

CA_Libertarian

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I'm just not sure telling myself "the boy was probably already dead" would help me sleep any better at night. What if they boy was clinging to life?

When I was 13 my friend was hit by a car and killed. I wasn't even there when it happened, and could not have caused it or stopped it. Even knowing there was nothing I could have done, for years I obsessed over the possibility I could have prevented the accident somehow. From what I hear this is common.

I can't imagine how it would feel if it was a situation where I could actually do something. I'm sorry, but maybe just isn't good enough for my conscience. It saddens me to think maybe was good enough for everybody there.
 

Grumpy Dan

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I find it sad that we have arrived at this state of affairs where folks are so sheepled that they won't intervene. I don't believe anyone knew if the child was already dead, at the time of the incident, so how to not get involved?

It is this very attitude of standing around :uhoh:waiting for the police to arrive and "handle it" that has gotten us to this sorry state.:banghead: Armed or not, are we men or mice?:cuss: Though I'm old and have many artificial parts, I simply could not stand by and watch something like this! Just couldn't do it !

If folks don't have any more strength of character than that they should not be carrying! Would most likely be shaking too much to aim correctly and hit some innocent bystander.

Kudos to the officer who did what was necessary, effectively.

Off the soap box.
 

Jim675

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Would I attempt to stop a 7-11 robbery? I don't know.
I sure do believe this one would be an easier decision.
How do rationalize that away?
 

BobCav

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The fact that no one stopped this guymakes me want to VOMIT and my stomach is wretching just thinking about it.Trying doesn't count. 911 doesn't count.Those who watched are as guilty of murder as the father.Stating the child was already dead in NO WAY exhoneratesthose who failed to stop this guy.They had no way of knowing so assuming that child wasalive was the only correct action. Taking out that idiot was the only correct action. Anything else was a failure.

A coward dies a thousand deaths - a hero only one.

Those cowards will answer for their inaction to God.But that's what America is breeding these days - A Nation of Cowards.

http://rkba.org/comment/cowards.html

WAKE UP AMERICA!
 

Walleye

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This and other stories are gradually wearing away my fear of OC while out in public. If I have to put up with folks getting their panties in a twist or eating dirt because the local PD doesn't know the law, that's a small price to pay should I ever be in a situation like this.
 

4armed Architect

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This tragedy illustrates so well the importance of what all of you on OCDO and elsewhere are trying to accomplish. Sometimes, because "time is of the essence", the security of ourselves, our families and our citizens is too important to leave in the hands of cell phones, response times and such. The officer did a remarkable thing when he arrived. Through no fault of his own, unfortunately, he arrived too late.

I've got a lot of nephews(and nieces) in which I am trying to foster an interest in firearms safety and shooting. We are having a lot of fun with it and I feel that it is critical that we not only educate and support each other, but train the next generation of "bystanders" in knowing that they can, indeed, do something about this kind of insanity(beating a child to death in public:cuss:).

Hopefully(through our combined efforts), as they get older, the laws(and the LEOs) will better accommodate the citizens need to "keep and bear arms". Then, the next generation will be able to perform better under situations like this. Frankly, while huge numbers have been turned in "wusses", I think there are quite a few who are up to the challenge.

I think the California Legislature and Governor need to seriously re-examine their gun control fervor. Wish there would have been an armed lady like the one at the Colorado church shooting(last year) available as a BYSTANDER on this scene. She did a wonderful job stopping that rampage.

Enough of my venting.
 

cato

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Every law abidingCalifornian, even those who don't practice open carry or have a LTC, should at least have an unloadedshotgun or rifle in theirtrunk or locked casewith ammo near by and know how to use it! Gun Control kills!
 

Citizen

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CA_Libertarian wrote:
SNIPWhat if they boy was clinging to life?
Then you still have to decide whether you are capable of overcoming, unarmed,that lethal rage when it turns on you.That rage may very well not stop until it has stomped you into a lifeless pulp. In which case itisfree to return to stomping the kid if it is so inclined.

Risking your life to possibly save the toddler has areverse side to it:risking your life and maybedie for a toddler that is already dead.

Idon't know that they didn'tdo all they could. Perhaps they yelled themselves hoarse or threw things at the maniac to get himto stop. Were there two or three able-bodied who could have teamed upand grabbed a couple tire-irons to subdue the killer? When did able-bodied #2 and #3 arrive? Did able-bodied #1 arrive in time to do anything? Were the first people on the scene a couple out-of-shape office workers, or middle aged husband and wife,who would stand no chance against the killer? We just don't know.
 

Grumpy Dan

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I certainly respect your right to your opinion on this issue and openly expressing it when you may get flamed is commendable. Also I agree that you are right to some extent. Not all individuals are capable of extreme violence. However, 2 or 3, as you suggested, with tire irons, or whatever may have been able to hold him at bay. To not try, is to join the sheeple, regardless. Putting yourself at risk in a dangerous situation is not a gentle undertaking but sometimes emergencies dictate no other course of action.

I am older with disabilitiesand would love to be able to protect myself and others without physical confrontation but would not hesitate in many situations,this being one of them.

In my opinion it is a major problem with our country and a definite leading factor in our disarmament. Until we the people prepare ourselves, at least mentaly, to do the right thing when necessary we will never fully recover our rights as stagnation, dependencyand inertia will continue. Those who gravitate to socialist power know this and encourage it through multitudinous means, including media blitzing, legislation and the intentional confusion shown on another thread when asked to clearly define what the law is.

I am not advocating insurrection or revolutionbutbold people must take a stand and hold the legislators feet to the fire, so to speak. Sometimes this can only be done by appropriate action. The folks who founded and defined our country all put themselves, their familys and their fortunes on the line and many paid the ultimate price. Unless we are prepared to do no less, when the time comes, we will get what we deserve.

The tree of liberty must often be refreshed with the blood of patriots and tyrants!

JMHO
 

CA_Libertarian

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Grumpy Dan wrote:
In my opinion it is a major problem with our country and a definite leading factor in our disarmament. Until we the people prepare ourselves, at least mentaly, to do the right thing when necessary we will never fully recover our rights as stagnation, dependencyand inertia will continue. Those who gravitate to socialist power know this and encourage it through multitudinous means, including media blitzing, legislation and the intentional confusion shown on another thread when asked to clearly define what the law is....
+1 to your entire post, with one exception:

I am not advocating insurrection or revolution...
I am.

It's taboo to say it, but it's my right to do so. Violent overthrow of government is undesireable, but inevitable. I don't think it's time just yet... but the time is coming.

We need to stop kidding ourselves. The sheeple need to start hearing that this option should never be ruled out. Violent revolution is our last resort, but it is our only guarantee that we will not be ruled.
 

Grumpy Dan

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Cal_Libertarian wrote:

"It's taboo to say it, but it's my right to do so. Violent overthrow of government is undesireable, but inevitable. I don't think it's time just yet... but the time is coming.

We need to stop kidding ourselves. The sheeple need to start hearing that this option should never be ruled out. Violent revolution is our last resort, but it is our only guarantee that we will not be ruled."

I should have added in "yet" to more clearly define my thought.

You're in good company. I saw Mike Huckabee say essentially the same thing when being interviewed on the Glen Beck show. Not an exact quote but the gist of it was: "The Second Amendment is not about hunting or collecting or target practice, or sport shooting. It is about every American's right to defend themselves and others, their property and their country. Ultimately, and I'm not saying it's that time yet, but it is ultimately about the people having the means to throw off a repressive government and install one that adheres to the constitution."


One a later follow up questions regarding so-called assault weapons bans (Again not exact quote) "Nonsense. The premise has already been confirmed by the Supreme Court that citizens are to have arms that are suitable for military purposes so as to be able to act as a militia when necessary."

The power brokers in Government know this and that is the whole banana regarding gun control. JMHO
 

Theseus

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This kind of thing has happened before. I remember learning in Psychology class about a case in NY where a woman was being raped and not 1 person called the police of tried to assist the woman although several dozen people were aware of the the rape taking place.

When later questioned about it they all responded," I figured someone else would call."

As for revolution. . . This is possibly one of the first times I have actually heard someone sound like me!!

I have had a strong feeling that our rights are being taken away, not just in areas of gun control, but other rights such as search and seizure, and that they aren't just taking them away but people like these bystanders are just giving them away for the promise of a little security and piece of mind. The belief that ANY GOVERNMENT is on the side of the people and will ever stay that way is preposterous...But maybe I am ranting too much.
 

Citizen

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CA_Libertarian wrote:
Grumpy Dan wrote:
SNIP Until we the people prepare ourselves, at least mentaly, to do the right thing when necessary we will never fully recover our rights as stagnation, dependencyand inertia will continue. Those who gravitate to socialist power know this and encourage it through multitudinous means, including media blitzing, legislation and the intentional confusion shown on another thread when asked to clearly define what the law is....
+1 to your entire post, with one exception:

I am not advocating insurrection or revolution...
I am.

It's taboo to say it, but it's my right to do so. Violent overthrow of government is undesireable, but inevitable. I don't think it's time just yet... but the time is coming.

We need to stop kidding ourselves. The sheeple need to start hearing that this option should never be ruled out. Violent revolution is our last resort, but it is our only guarantee that we will not be ruled.
CA_Libertarian,

Advocating insurrection or revolution isn't just taboo, its illegal. Its called sedition.

Please refrain from advocating illegal acts on OCDO. John and Mike, co-founders, have made it clear they are working on peaceful change and want the forum to be used only for peaceful change.
 

Theseus

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Citizen wrote:
CA_Libertarian wrote:

Advocating insurrection or revolution isn't just taboo, its illegal. Its called sedition.

Please refrain from advocating illegal acts on OCDO. John and Mike, co-founders, have made it clear they are working on peaceful change and want the forum to be used only for peaceful change.


To clarify then my post.

I am not meaning that I am advocating insurection. I am not. I did not clarify or spell out, and for that I am guilty. But here is the purppose of my mention.

I will not get to in-depth as I am sure you have heard the argument before. My mention of insurection/revolution was more in support of the 2nd amendment. My understanding of the framers spirit in the construction of the Bill of Rights "Right to Bear and Keep Arms" was to allow its civilian citizens the tools, and training neccessary to userp the government through use of arms adequate to combat a highly trained and professional militaryif the government of the US was conceived to no longer be "For the people, by the people." And for the protection of the rights given to us in the Bill of Rights.
 

marshaul

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Citizen wrote:
Advocating insurrection or revolution isn't just taboo, its illegal.  Its called sedition. 

Please refrain from advocating illegal acts on OCDO.  John and Mike, co-founders, have made it clear they are working on peaceful change and want the forum to be used only for peaceful change.

See the following:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yates_v._United_States

If the forum admins wish to implement rules, that is, of course, fully their choice.

However, I respectfully submit that it is a great disservice to all our rights to claim that the reasoning behind such a rule is the (imagined) illegality of seditious communication. We have a duty to stand up for our rights, and you shouldn't expect CA_Libertarian to refrain from a particular mode of speech because it is purportedly "illegal."

Simply deferring to the wishes of the staff should be sufficient reasoning.
 
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