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Thread: Cause you never know when you'll need it in a bank

  1. #1
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    Good For him !!!

    The BG was probably wearing a tucked in shirt still claiming he had a bomb !

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    Repost, but a good story none-the-less.

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    anyone read some of the comments?, makes my blood boil when i hear "he should have done nothing and let the police handle it."

    what happens when that bank robber gets away, and hold YOUR family hostage, are you going to just wait for the LEO

    yeah right... we all know that LEO are not responisble for protecting us... that responisiblity falls on ourselves, and im not about to disarm a gun/knife/bomb wielding psyco with a taser or peper spray... or less

    officers 00 buck, and .357, are thebest officers in my neighborhood

    i think the CCW did a good job showing restraint in not shooting the guy in between the eyes, tough to trigger a bomb with an ounce of lead short circuting the brainstem.

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    Holy necropost Batman!

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    Think,

    medulla oblongata.medulla oblongata.

    Practice, practice, practice...

    Produces a no reflex drop. Its what snipers do.

    A good aim point is just below between the eyes to the corners of the mouth.

    In my training I have been taught that a gunshot to this area produces a no relfex drop. Finger on trigger wont flinch and suspect is dropped. Of course I am not a doctor nor a lawyer. However I do think that this is a good target. Seems that the trauma to the upper spine/ lower brain would produce the desired affect.

    I spent my day on a nature walk, then shooting the M 16, UMP and 416. then the g22c play to finish it up....good times.

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    Ahh yes, aim for the "peach"

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    and i was told that i need not carry a gun in my home town because it is ranked in the top 5 safest communities in the state.

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    Founder's Club Member ixtow's Avatar
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    The Fiercest Beard wrote:
    tough to trigger a bomb with an ounce of lead short circuting the brainstem.
    One word: deadmanswitch. If he LETS GO it detonates. That includes depriving him of motor function through the high road.

    Pointing a gun at a man who says he has a bomb, is foolish. This time, everyone just got lucky that the bomber was dumber than the guy CCWing.... Bluffing helped too.


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    A bank robber is not likely to have a "deadman switch." Some people watch too much TV. Keep in mind that the robber has to carry the bag of money out and then has to quickly get away. It is kind of difficult to do that with one hand and if the goal is to get rich, the robber doesn't want to accidently blow himself up in the process. Not to say that this can't happen but a bank robber strapped with explosives holding a deadman switch is quite unlikely. Besides, why go to so much trouble putting a sophisicated bomb together when you could just grab a gun? I don't think the permit holder was stupid. He just didn't buy the bluff.



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    Founder's Club Member ixtow's Avatar
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    2 points

    A normally open push button is no harder to find or use than a normally closed one.

    Stick it in your mouth and the tellers tend not to stall by asking you to repeat yourself. Hands free. Motivates.

    Read about bank robberies with bombs. Most you'll read about are the ones that go wrong and the bad guy gets caught. Fake bombs, etc... The much larger number of successful robberies are harder to find, but you'll see the ones that get away with a bomb MO almost ALWAYS use a deadman switch. The others get caught and publicized.
    "The fourth man's dark, accusing song had scratched our comfort hard and long..."
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    "Be not intimidated ... nor suffer yourselves to be wheedled out of your Liberties by any pretense of Politeness, Delicacy, or Decency. These, as they are often used, are but three different names for Hypocrisy, Chicanery, and Cowardice." - John Adams

    Tyranny with Manners is still Tyranny.

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    This Dumb-Samaritan gives the GunGrabbers a good example/propaganda to fight for their side. He turned a volatile situation into a very, very, very volatile situation and greatly increased the danger to everyone's lives there.

    All that was at stake was maybe $2,000 to $5,000 in cash (maybe even $10k but highly unlikely). And that's if the robber went to every teller b/c most bank's system don't keep that much cash up front. To withdraw $7k one time in cash, I was told by my bank that I had to order it 2 days ahead of time. Maybe a bluff by the bank to discourage potential robbers into thinking that they don't have quick access to lots of cash. But the bank certainly didn't want any customers to take such actions on their behalf.

    A robber with a bomb is less likely to hurt anyone b/c he only has one weapon that he can only use ONE time....and if he uses it, his mission has failed....plus, he's dead. Unlike a gun with high cap mags, multiple mags, etc. where there can be many different scenarios that may warrant a Good-Samaritan's help.

    The robber basically held everyone's lives in danger, all at once (depending on the power of the bomb) but didn't want to use it b/c his primary objective is the money....and this Idiot-Samaritan decides to call his bluff. A bank robbery is not the same as a suicidal mass killing spree. This guy just got lucky that no one got killed. He's no hero.




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    I would think this would be a case of situational awareness.. a judgement call on the part of the LAC carrying a weapon. I know if it were me, I would not draw if I were convinced it would cause undue casualties. BUT, if I did think I could apprehend the subject safely... I believe it is my obligation to do so.

    J

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    Even if the bomb squad was there, they'd still have to assess the level of threat. It can be zero (no bomb) to any kind of bomb from a pipe-bomb on up. I doubt they'd be able to tell anything that's hidden under the robber's jacket by a simple visual. They and anyone else must assume the worse for the sake of everyone else.

    The bank does not want people doing this to save their $2-5k (that's insured and just peanuts) at the risk of others lives and the inevitable legal suites by the injured and the dead's families. Heck, even the workers comp. for one injured employee and/or funeral expense for one dead employee, far outweighs the potential robbery loot.

    This guy with a gun basically said, "F" all pre-cautions, bomb squad training & expertise, trainings of LEO's, etc....I'm being the hero today and I'll just treat this like a poker hand and call the bluff.

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    JBURGII wrote:
    I believe it is my obligation to do so.
    Why? The robber's primary motive was to get the money. Not to hurt anyone. The bank doesn't want you to act on their behalf and probably neither do any of the other customers there.

    This robber didn't incite any panic (which is why he passed a silent note to the teller). Common sense says that he just wanted to quietly leave there w/o raising any commotion.

    Basically, you're willing to risk everyone there being blown up into pieces just to save $2k - $10k of the bank's insured money?

    If someone had me at gunpoint, demanding my wallet. I would not want a bystander with a gun to draw it and try to save my wallet....b/c then I'd be in between 2 lines of fire. I'd rather risk losing my money vs. having the situation escalated and risk getting shot by 2 people.



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    You're not thinking straight fellow. Just because there is no immediate danger, doesn't mean the robbery won't hurt others.

    When someone tries to rob or hurt another, they are hurting every member of the community. Mr. Fawzi prevented others from being hurt, you do not allow crime to survive in decent cities like Canton or the city will turn out to develop like Chicago, riddled with crime because the cities don't want to stand up for their community.

    You want to stop crime like that from happening, then encourage the public to not put up and allow criminals to roam the country free.

    So the FDIC insures up to 100000 dollars, so what. I can tell you, from experience working as a contractor with banks, allowing a bank to be robbed makes the bank a target for future robberies even if they increase security.
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    ZR1 wrote:
    JBURGII wrote:
    I believe it is my obligation to do so.
    Why? The robber's primary motive was to get the money. Not to hurt anyone. The bank doesn't want you to act on their behalf and probably neither do any of the other customers there.

    This robber didn't incite any panic (which is why he passed a silent note to the teller). Common sense says that he just wanted to quietly leave there w/o raising any commotion.

    Basically, you're willing to risk everyone there being blown up into pieces just to save $2k - $10k of the bank's insured money?

    If someone had me at gunpoint, demanding my wallet. I would not want a bystander with a gun to draw it and try to save my wallet....b/c then I'd be in between 2 lines of fire. I'd rather risk losing my money vs. having the situation escalated and risk getting shot by 2 people.

    I kept my post pretty simple.. I stated that I would only act if I were able to ascertain the probability of safety to be in my (and whoever may be in the alledged blast zones) favor or there was an immediate danger to human life which is where the obligation part comes from. Maybe for safety sake I will just follow him out of the bank to test my theory. Just out of curiosity, does anyone have some stats handy on the actual use of functional bombs in bank robberies??

    This was about a 'bomb' carrying robber, not a gunman. That would change your response a little bit. I think each event has to be evaluated as it occurs. I would not just jump up and yell "freeze" and start shooting. We can sit here and speculate over coffee all day long and never cover every scenario. As far as being held at gunpoint for your wallet, if an officer were standing there would you not want him too draw either?

    J

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    You're not thinking straight fellow. Just because there is no immediate danger, doesn't mean the robbery won't hurt others
    No, you didn't understand what I clearly stated. I said there was a danger, and obviously there is one anytime someone claims to have a bomb during a robbery. Once again, the bomber had only ONE weapon that he can only use ONE time (unlike a gun w/many bullets).

    The Dumb-Samaritan escalated the danger by gambling that the robber was bluffing about having a bomb and/or willingness to use it.

    When someone tries to rob or hurt another, they are hurting every member of the community. Mr. Fawzi prevented others from being hurt, you do not allow crime to survive in decent cities like Canton or the city will turn out to develop like Chicago, riddled with crime because the cities don't want to stand up for their community.
    Is he a bomb expert? So whenever there's a bomb threat, people with CW's should just confront them and gamble with everyone else's lives in the blast zone that the aggressor is just lying? Is this how police negotiators and bomb squads operates? They just assume it's always fake and pull out their gun and threatens the aggressor claiming to have a bomb that can kill every bystander in the area? Why even have police negotiators and bomb squads then if all you think they need to do is to draw a gun and hope that there's no bomb?

    You want to stop crime like that from happening, then encourage the public to not put up and allow criminals to roam the country free.

    So the FDIC insures up to 100000 dollars, so what. I can tell you, from experience working as a contractor with banks, allowing a bank to be robbed makes the bank a target for future robberies even if they increase security.
    Are you a fascist? The banks can set whatever policies they want in a free market. If you don't like how they operate then go to another bank. It's real smart to risk everyone being blown up right?


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    ZR1 wrote:
    You're not thinking straight fellow. Just because there is no immediate danger, doesn't mean the robbery won't hurt others
    No, you didn't understand what I clearly stated. I said there was a danger, and obviously there is one anytime someone claims to have a bomb during a robbery. Once again, the bomber had only ONE weapon that he can only use ONE time (unlike a gun w/many bullets).

    The Dumb-Samaritan escalated the danger by gambling that the robber was bluffing about having a bomb and/or willingness to use it.

    When someone tries to rob or hurt another, they are hurting every member of the community. Mr. Fawzi prevented others from being hurt, you do not allow crime to survive in decent cities like Canton or the city will turn out to develop like Chicago, riddled with crime because the cities don't want to stand up for their community.
    Is he a bomb expert? So whenever there's a bomb threat, people with CW's should just confront them and gamble with everyone else's lives in the blast zone that the aggressor is just lying? Is this how police negotiators and bomb squads operates? They just assume it's always fake and pull out their gun and threatens the aggressor claiming to have a bomb that can kill every bystander in the area? Why even have police negotiators and bomb squads then if all you think they need to do is to draw a gun and hope that there's no bomb?

    You want to stop crime like that from happening, then encourage the public to not put up and allow criminals to roam the country free.

    So the FDIC insures up to 100000 dollars, so what. I can tell you, from experience working as a contractor with banks, allowing a bank to be robbed makes the bank a target for future robberies even if they increase security.
    Are you a fascist? The banks can set whatever policies they want in a free market. If you don't like how they operate then go to another bank. It's real smart to risk everyone being blown up right?
    Where in the news story did it say that the CCW holder/user was told that the robber had a bomb??? All it said was that the teller told him the other teller was being robbed!!



    I carry a gun on my side, becuase a Police officer doesn't fit in my holster too well.



    The guy used his constitutional rights, stopped a robbery, and put a criminal in the right place, and you people rag on that?? WOW!!

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    Where in the news story did it say that the CCW holder/user was told that the robber had a bomb??? All it said was that the teller told him the other teller was being robbed!!
    The robber TOLD him that he had a bomb.

    I carry a gun on my side, becuase a Police officer doesn't fit in my holster too well.
    Well people with your mentality makes it much easier for the GunGrabbers to prove their point to the mass majority and win votes towards their side. So tell me, are you trained to assess the types of bombs and/or diffuse them? Does a bank want you to help them protect their $2k - $10k in cash during a robbery or not?

    The guy used his constitutional rights, stopped a robbery, and put a criminal in the right place, and you people rag on that?? WOW!!
    No because he wanted to be some kind of hero and threw caution into the wind /w everyones' lives at stake. He turned a volatile situation much worse and gave the robber an ultimatum of.......either give up, get no money, and go to jail......or detonate the bomb. That is sheer stupidity and no police negotiator would do such idiotic thing right off the bat.

    Because once he's made that ultimatum, he would need to shoot the robber due to the chance of him denotating the bomb having increased significantly. Probably a head shot to guaranty incapacitation (vs. risk striking the bomb by shooting elsewhere).

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    I kept my post pretty simple.. I stated that I would only act if I were able to ascertain the probability of safety to be in my (and whoever may be in the alledged blast zones) favor or there was an immediate danger to human life which is where the obligation part comes from. Maybe for safety sake I will just follow him out of the bank to test my theory. Just out of curiosity, does anyone have some stats handy on the actual use of functional bombs in bank robberies??
    Having a gun permit does not give you the authority to circumvent the procedures that trained Police Negotiators and Bomb Squad takes during such situations.

    There is nothing for you to ascertain. Because you're not trained nor apart of the Bomb Squad. This is not a dark alley robbery situation. This guy alleged to have a bomb.

    When there is a bomb threat, the police close off and secure entire city blocks and then they send in negotiators and the Bomb Squad. They don't just automatically say that it's bullcrap and just send ONE cop in with a gun to threaten the bomber down.

    This was about a 'bomb' carrying robber, not a gunman. That would change your response a little bit. I think each event has to be evaluated as it occurs. I would not just jump up and yell "freeze" and start shooting. We can sit here and speculate over coffee all day long and never cover every scenario.
    I don't see too many scenarios. The CCW holder wanted to be a hero and risked the lives of many by threatening the robber with an ultimatum. He was just lucky that there was no bomb.

    As far as being held at gunpoint for your wallet, if an officer were standing there would you not want him too draw either?
    Do not compare this bomb situation with that of a robbery at gunpoint. A regular cop is not trained to detect the type of bomb nor how it would be detonated. Nor would a bomb expert know without a close evaluation (that he wouldn't get anyway). They would try to appease the guy and ask for the release of the hostages. Then they'd probably have snipers go for multiple headshots and limb shots simultaneously to incapacitate him to prevent a possible detonation.

    A single cop would not just pull out a gun and risk a blast killing everyone including himself.


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    By my reading of the article, the robber didn't say out loud that he had a bomb until the other guy was already pointing a gun at him. Too late to not draw then.

    I myself would have waited to see what the guy was doing at the teller's window before intervening. If I didn't see a weapon and he was just going to leave with the money, I would stay out of it and just try to remember what I see for the police later. If I thought someone was actually in danger of being harmed, then maybe a different course of action is called for.

    But you can cool it with all the ranting about this guy. He drew too early, but once you draw, there's no going back. You don't put your gun back in the holster just because the bad guy declares he has a bomb. Too late. At that point you must follow through until the police arrive. He did that, and it worked out.

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    This sounds like a case of armchair quarterbacking. None of us were there and we are only going off of news reports which never cover all of the details of the situation. I do believe in stopping crime and saving lives if I am reasonably capable of doing so and without risking the lives of others. On the other hand, I am not liable for other people's poor street smarts and lack ofsituational awareness. If a man declares he has a bomb and 20 other customers and tellerschoose to stay in the bank rather than immediately head to the nearest exits, that is on them. This situation does bring to mind the danger of innocent bystanders being harmed because you never know for sure whether or not the bomber is bluffing. Again, as much as it would be my goal to have no innocent hurt or killed in any situation, I cannot be responsible for people who choose to put themselves in harm's way. I have witnessed many dangerous situations (fights, building fires, etc.) where people have plenty of opportunity to escape and not only do they choose not to leave but instead move closer to the danger. I don't know if it is from watching too much TV or what but people literally put themselves directly in harm's way. If the bomb goes off 120 seconds later when the 20 people had enough time to be 200 feet away across the street, that is unfortunate but they basically made Darwin awards.

    I'm not trying to sound insensitive because I do care about people or I wouldn't have done things I've done in the past to get people out of situations. It is a roll of the dice in many ways because the same people you are trying to protect are often the same people who will put YOU in danger by being stupid. Take a bar fight for instance. You don't know whether it is just a minor fight or whether suddenly it could turn into a shootout. Yet patrons who are not capable or willing to handle the situation will quickly crowd around the situation making them first to get hurt or killed should the SHTF and in addition it makes it harder for ME, security,a police officer, or some other capable and/or trained individual to step in because now you've got to get these idiots out of your way. I remember one time there was a fire in a building that was getting out of control very fast. While the two people closest to the two nearest fire extinguishers were grabbing them to try to put out the fire, numerous people actually started getting closer to the fire to get a better look and "be part of the action." Had the extinguishers been unsuccessful, the people who were trying to assist in stopping the fire would now have to trample the onlookers to get the hell out yet these people should have already been heading out the exits in the first place.

    I didn't mean to go on so much but you do have to pick your battles and again there's not much you can do about innocents who choose on their own accord to get in harm's way just to witness the drama or those who fail to leave when they had plenty of time to. I've always believed that as a third party defender you either do one of two things: you get directly involved and use whatever experience or training you have to stop the threat OR you leave the area so that those who are capable of stopping the threat can easily get through to assist. You don't just stand in theF-ing way.



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    I agree, we can all armchair qb.. but till you are there and assess it for yourself.. and as I read, the LAC didn't know the guy used the 'bomb' card till after he pulled his 9mm.. and 6 years in the Lebanese army might give the fellow some awareness skills..

    J

    p.s. yea, what Tomahawk said!! that I think I reiterated.. hehe

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