Cause you never know when you'll need it in a bank

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Where in the news story did it say that the CCW holder/user was told that the robber had a bomb??? All it said was that the teller told him the other teller was being robbed!!

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The robber TOLD him that he had a bomb.

I carry a gun on my side, becuase a Police officer doesn't fit in my holster too well.

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Well people with your mentality makes it much easier for the GunGrabbers to prove their point to the mass majority and win votes towards their side. So tell me, are you trained to assess the types of bombs and/or diffuse them? Does a bank want you to help them protect their $2k - $10k in cash during a robbery or not?

The guy used his constitutional rights, stopped a robbery, and put a criminal in the right place, and you people rag on that?? WOW!!

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No because he wanted to be some kind of hero and threw caution into the wind /w everyones' lives at stake. He turned a volatile situation much worse and gave the robber an ultimatum of.......either give up, get no money, and go to jail......or detonate the bomb. That is sheer stupidity and no police negotiator would do such idiotic thing right off the bat.

Because once he's made that ultimatum, he would need to shoot the robber due to the chance of him denotating the bomb having increased significantly. Probably a head shot to guaranty incapacitation (vs. risk striking the bomb by shooting elsewhere).

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I kept my post pretty simple.. I stated that I would only act if I were able to ascertain the probability of safety to be in my (and whoever may be in the alledged blast zones) favor or there was an immediate danger to human life which is where the obligation part comes from. Maybe for safety sake I will just follow him out of the bank to test my theory. Just out of curiosity, does anyone have some stats handy on the actual use of functional bombs in bank robberies??

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Having a gun permit does not give you the authority to circumvent the procedures that trained Police Negotiators and Bomb Squad takes during such situations.

There is nothing for you to ascertain. Because you're not trained nor apart of the Bomb Squad. This is not a dark alley robbery situation. This guy alleged to have a bomb.

When there is a bomb threat, the police close off and secure entire city blocks and then they send in negotiators and the Bomb Squad. They don't just automatically say that it's bullcrap and just send ONE cop in with a gun to threaten the bomber down.

This was about a 'bomb' carrying robber, not a gunman. That would change your response a little bit. I think each event has to be evaluated as it occurs. I would not just jump up and yell "freeze" and start shooting. We can sit here and speculate over coffee all day long and never cover every scenario.

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I don't see too many scenarios. The CCW holder wanted to be a hero and risked the lives of many by threatening the robber with an ultimatum. He was just lucky that there was no bomb.

As far as being held at gunpoint for your wallet, if an officer were standing there would you not want him too draw either?

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Do not compare this bomb situation with that of a robbery at gunpoint. A regular cop is not trained to detect the type of bomb nor how it would be detonated. Nor would a bomb expert know without a close evaluation (that he wouldn't get anyway). They would try to appease the guy and ask for the release of the hostages. Then they'd probably have snipers go for multiple headshots and limb shots simultaneously to incapacitate him to prevent a possible detonation.

A single cop would not just pull out a gun and risk a blast killing everyone including himself.

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By my reading of the article, the robber didn't say out loud that he had a bomb until the other guy was already pointing a gun at him. Too late to not draw then.

I myself would have waited to see what the guy was doing at the teller's window before intervening. If I didn't see a weapon and he was just going to leave with the money, I would stay out of it and just try to remember what I see for the police later. If I thought someone was actually in danger of being harmed, then maybe a different course of action is called for.

But you can cool it with all the ranting about this guy. He drew too early, but once you draw, there's no going back. You don't put your gun back in the holster just because the bad guy declares he has a bomb. Too late. At that point you must follow through until the police arrive. He did that, and it worked out.

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This sounds like a case of armchair quarterbacking. None of us were there and we are only going off of news reports which never cover all of the details of the situation. I do believe in stopping crime and saving lives if I am reasonably capable of doing so and without risking the lives of others. On the other hand, I am not liable for other people's poor street smarts and lack ofsituational awareness. If a man declares he has a bomb and 20 other customers and tellerschoose to stay in the bank rather than immediately head to the nearest exits, that is on them. This situation does bring to mind the danger of innocent bystanders being harmed because you never know for sure whether or not the bomber is bluffing. Again, as much as it would be my goal to have no innocent hurt or killed in any situation, I cannot be responsible for people who choose to put themselves in harm's way. I have witnessed many dangerous situations (fights, building fires, etc.) where people have plenty of opportunity to escape and not only do they choose not to leave but instead move closer to the danger. I don't know if it is from watching too much TV or what but people literally put themselves directly in harm's way. If the bomb goes off 120 seconds later when the 20 people had enough time to be 200 feet away across the street, that is unfortunate but they basically made Darwin awards.

I'm not trying to sound insensitive because I do care about people or I wouldn't have done things I've done in the past to get people out of situations. It is a roll of the dice in many ways because the same people you are trying to protect are often the same people who will put YOU in danger by being stupid. Take a bar fight for instance. You don't know whether it is just a minor fight or whether suddenly it could turn into a shootout. Yet patrons who are not capable or willing to handle the situation will quickly crowd around the situation making them first to get hurt or killed should the SHTF and in addition it makes it harder for ME, security,a police officer, or some other capable and/or trained individual to step in because now you've got to get these idiots out of your way. I remember one time there was a fire in a building that was getting out of control very fast. While the two people closest to the two nearest fire extinguishers were grabbing them to try to put out the fire, numerous people actually started getting closer to the fire to get a better look and "be part of the action." Had the extinguishers been unsuccessful, the people who were trying to assist in stopping the fire would now have to trample the onlookers to get the hell out yet these people should have already been heading out the exits in the first place.

I didn't mean to go on so much but you do have to pick your battles and again there's not much you can do about innocents who choose on their own accord to get in harm's way just to witness the drama or those who fail to leave when they had plenty of time to. I've always believed that as a third party defender you either do one of two things: you get directly involved and use whatever experience or training you have to stop the threat OR you leave the area so that those who are capable of stopping the threat can easily get through to assist. You don't just stand in theF-ing way.

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I agree, we can all armchair qb.. but till you are there and assess it for yourself.. and as I read, the LAC didn't know the guy used the 'bomb' card till after he pulled his 9mm.. and 6 years in the Lebanese army might give the fellow some awareness skills..

J

p.s. yea, what Tomahawk said!! that I think I reiterated.. hehe

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Generally speaking, a citizen should not open the gunfight in a public place for benefit of others...safer to let the perp leave without causing a gunfight...if he begins shooting or trying to take a hostage...that changes the rules...even the police are trained(having been one) to treat each situation with the common sense we all have and not cause more danger to others than is necessary...personally, as long as it was just take the money and run, I wouldn't act inside, and may not outside...unless I could stop him without endangering others...a good description/license number will do more to catch him than lead flying and injured citizens and perhaps a standoff with hostages...the responsibility of carrying automatically says we'll use common sense and help, not hurt, if we act...If he starts shooting...all bets are off...but be careful that you don't see just him...he may have help inside or outside....

My prayer when I put on my .45 is "Lord, help me not need to use this today....and help me not to miss if I do..."....anyone who "wants to be a hero" is a danger to himself and others....carrying is about stopping the immediate danger....

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Well put sheepdog, I don't specifically advocate pulling a 'Barney Fife' by any means. I am curious and would like to hear from everyone on the differences here..

BG gets money, leaves w/o violence - let LE deal with it, call in 911 with details, direction of getaway and possible vehicle id..

BG in act, OBVIOUS he is not a physical danger - LAC apprehends.

Two fairly opposing scenarios, but... what we are getting to is the meat of the problem, BG decides to (without provocation) get violent, LAC is watching him like a hawk.. the SECOND we determine the BG has made the decision to cause harm.. you draw and fire (having already determined backstop, maybe having inched yourself into optimum firing angle.. ) the thing is you carry a weapon, you have accepted responsibility to be aware and constantly analyze the potential of any possibility.

Oh hang on! I just thought.. heres a glitch.. YOU as LAC have taken steps after noticing armed robbery in progress, you are ready to enter the scenario.. you also notice armed security gaurd completely oblivious to situation.. ALL he sees is you drawing and firing your weapon... okay.. now what.. :what:

Okay, I'm getting a headace.. going for coffee..

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interesting seeing all the different comments... as far as the whole "let the police handle it" what would be said of the cop that just happened to be stopping by the bank to make a deposit and notices that some guy with a "bomb" is holding it up. does anyone think hes going to not draw, and walk away? say he does draw and the guy blows himself up killing 20 people, would the media/public make it the cops fault? serious question

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By my reading of the article, the robber didn't say out loud that he had a bomb until the other guy was already pointing a gun at him. Too late to not draw then.

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Not really. It's not uncommon for cops to draw their weapon and then reassess the situation. Why couldn't the CCW holder back down for the safety of others instead of gambling with their lives with that ridiculous ultimatum?

I myself would have waited to see what the guy was doing at the teller's window before intervening. If I didn't see a weapon and he was just going to leave with the money, I would stay out of it and just try to remember what I see for the police later. If I thought someone was actually in danger of being harmed, then maybe a different course of action is called for.

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Exactly. This was a robbery with a bomb and not a robbery with a gun & multiple bullets. With a gun, he could have shot people if they didn't comply in order to get the money. But with a bomb, he would not detonate it b/c then he would die and get no money. Unless someone dumb enough to back him into a corner.

If he wanted to kill people in a suicide mission, he would just walked in and detonate the bomb w/o needing to call it a robbery nor alert anyone with a CCW that may interfere.

But you can cool it with all the ranting about this guy. He drew too early, but once you draw, there's no going back. You don't put your gun back in the holster just because the bad guy declares he has a bomb. Too late. At that point you must follow through until the police arrive. He did that, and it worked out.

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Why should I cool it. This kind of stupidity is what prevents many other states to not pass CCW programs b/c it helps proves the arguments of the GunGrabbers. His follow through should have been to shoot the bomber in the head multiple times until he's completely incapacitated....after giving him that ultimatum. Or he should have back down and reholster his gun.

If someone is making threats with a bomb, it's highly obvious that his finger is already on the detonating device. SWAT would have snipped him. This guy is just playing Rambo w/o any intentions of really shooting him, all the while, giving him the opportunity to detonate it due to the ultimatum.

Cops, bombsquad, SWAT, etc...would not just give him an ultimatum of giving up and go to jail....they would buy time and try to appease him to get the bystanders out first and for the snipers can get a good shot.

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Only question I have is WWJBD? What would Jack Bauer do?

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This sounds like a case of armchair quarterbacking. None of us were there and we are only going off of news reports which never cover all of the details of the situation.

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Why? Why is it so hard for you to analyze a situation involving a threat of a bomb?

Why is it so hard for you to understand that a bomb situation is never handle in such a way by any police special unit, bomb squad, etc.

What other details do you want? The robber said he had a bomb and the bank was full of people. What other detail is required to realize that the CCW owner was a fool? LE uses case scenarios to teach and learn everyday. Are they armchair quarterbacks too?

On the other hand, I am not liable for other people's poor street smarts and lack ofsituational awareness.

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Oh the heck you aren't. Just b/c you have a permit to carry a gun, you are not absolved from state prosecution and civil liabilities should you do something stupid and hurt or kill other people.

What county and State are you in to think this way?

If a man declares he has a bomb and 20 other customers and tellerschoose to stay in the bank rather than immediately head to the nearest exits, that is on them.

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No, no one knew about the robbery. The robber passed a note to a teller. She hit the silent alarm. Another teller alerted the ONE customer with a CCW. When he drawn the weapon was when the robber said he had a bomb. Normal people don't train themselves for potential bomb threats such as these. Most people would just freeze and/or be afraid to incite more confusion that may cause the bomber to detonate it.

If everyone ran screaming, what are the chances of him detonating the bomb. Can they run faster than an explosion? And who helped make the situation worse by drawing a gun on him and giving him an ultimatum?

This situation does bring to mind the danger of innocent bystanders being harmed because you never know for sure whether or not the bomber is bluffing.

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That's why the SMART thing to do is to let him take the $2k-10k in cash and be on his way and wait for trained bomb professionals, SWAT, police negotiators, etc.

Again, as much as it would be my goal to have no innocent hurt or killed in any situation, I cannot be responsible for people who choose to put themselves in harm's way.

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Depending on your state, chances are, you'll be prosecuted if your Rambo actions is proven to be irresponsible. Then afterwards, if you're not in jail, the civil complaints starts coming.

I have witnessed many dangerous situations (fights, building fires, etc.) where people have plenty of opportunity to escape and not only do they choose not to leave but instead move closer to the danger. I don't know if it is from watching too much TV or what but people literally put themselves directly in harm's way. If the bomb goes off 120 seconds later when the 20 people had enough time to be 200 feet away across the street, that is unfortunate but they basically made Darwin awards.

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If someone robbed a bank with a bomb, why would they activate it on a timer for 120 seconds? If they can wire a bomb to a timer, then they obviously can wire a bomb to a detonator since a timer is just extra steps.

Back to the question as to whether or not this CCW holder and yourself are trained bomb experts and hostage negotiators. Are you?

I'm not trying to sound insensitive because I do care about people or I wouldn't have done things I've done in the past to get people out of situations. It is a roll of the dice in many ways because the same people you are trying to protect are often the same people who will put YOU in danger by being stupid.

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So pointing a gun and giving someone who just claimed to have a bomb, an utltimatum of giving up, getting no money and going to jail is not STUPID?

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JBURGII wrote:

I agree, we can all armchair qb.. but till you are there and assess it for yourself.. and as I read, the LAC didn't know the guy used the 'bomb' card till after he pulled his 9mm.. and 6 years in the Lebanese army might give the fellow some awareness skills..

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Why didn't he back down and re-holster his gun? 6 years in the Lebanese army may or may not mean anything. All males over 18 must serve at least 2 years anyway and usually in poor countries, joining the army is one of the very few ways of earning a living. Based on his judgment, I don't see him as being anything but an irresponsible gunowner with horrible common sense.

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ZR1 wrote:

This sounds like a case of armchair quarterbacking. None of us were there and we are only going off of news reports which never cover all of the details of the situation.

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Why? Why is it so hard for you to analyze a situation involving a threat of a bomb? 

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Maybe you can tell us when the last actual bank robbery occurred using a real bomb. Maybe you can also let us know where, in this case, the bomb actually was.

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r6-rider wrote:

interesting seeing all the different comments... as far as the whole "let the police handle it" what would be said of the cop that just happened to be stopping by the bank to make a deposit and notices that some guy with a "bomb" is holding it up. does anyone think hes going to not draw, and walk away? say he does draw and the guy blows himself up killing 20 people, would the media/public make it the cops fault? serious question

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Cops can be just as stupid. That's why there are levels of LE. A wise streetcop should realize that there are bombsquads trained to deal with such situations. If the cop drew his gun and then was told by the robber that he had a bomb, a smart cop would back down and wait for help and/or commands from his superiors.

And if the bomb detonates and kills 20 people and the cop survives, oh hell yes is he going to be held responsible. Cops are disciplined and fired for much, much smaller mistakes that ended up hurting someone. Here, we're talking about many dead and wounded.

If it were this CCW holder and the bomb went off, the anti-gun media would have a field day. All bad for those who wants to have and/or keep CCW programs in their State.

My friend got into a shootout with 2 thugs who earlier threatened to come back with firepower (due to a verbal dispute at his store). He was in his grocery store (so he couldn't really hide nor close shop since they can come back any day, any time, etc.). He got shot, his father shot (permanently crippled) and an employee got shot. The thugs got shot too but got away. Over 40 rounds fired.

Guess what. The State tried to bring him up on charges of reckless endangerment to the public, etc. Then the employee who got shot, sued my friend and WON. This is after years of litigation and HUNDREDS of thousands of dollars in legal fees. Imagine also, the headaches and disruptions in their lives. The thugs were never even caught. My friend's family were rich, but not anymore. And in this case, my friend was very justified....unlike this CCW guy at the bank.

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marshaul wrote:

ZR1 wrote:

Maybe you can tell us when the last actual bank robbery occurred using a real bomb. Maybe you can also let us know where, in this case, the bomb actually was.

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Or maybe I can just believe that someone does have a bomb when they claim to have one....all for the sake of my safety and of others....and not go Rambo on him and pull out my gun.....and give him an ultimatum of giving up...thus, failing to get his money...thus, going to jail.

Maybe you can tell me if this CCW holder was a trained bomb expert and/or trained police negotiator (usually with a psychology background)?

And did this CCW holder have the knowledge of when the last actual bank robbery occurred using a real bomb in order to make an assessment as to whether or not this robber really had a bomb?

And is this how you think the bombsquad handles such situations? They gather data to derive their decisions based on concensus?

Or do they take all, such threat as real and take great measures in the interest of public safety?

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I'm still looking for more statistics on this subject. From what I have seen so far, the percentage of bank robberies using 'bomb' threat is small.. and the percentage of those that are real bombs.. even smaller.. I will post the actual numbers when I find them..

A bank robbers primary motive is money. I would be more afraid of a gun wielding robber more than an alledged bomber.. someone with a gun can fire a round into the ceiling for effect or shoot someone. A bomb is a one time thing, especially for the robber who not only doesn't get paid, he doesn't survive. Now if the robber does have a bomb and is really willing to activate it I don't think a LAC will be who you have to worry about.. then I would rather take the shot or if someone else armed is in better position I would support their actions in shooting..

Now if any person is so afraid of anything like this happening in this perfect little world of ours.. find a place secure enough to satisfy all your phobias.

J

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I've changed my mind. The proper course of action would be to carefully retreat to your car, get out a bomb of your own, and come back in and explain to the bad guy that your bomb is bigger than his bomb and that if he doesn't stop the robbery, you will blow him up before he blows you up. Make sure you have your concealed carry bomb permit with you though.

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protector84 wrote:

I've changed my mind. The proper course of action would be to carefully retreat to your car, get out a bomb of your own, and come back in and explain to the bad guy that your bomb is bigger than his bomb and that if he doesn't stop the robbery, you will blow him up before he blows you up. Make sure you have your concealed carry bomb permit with you though.

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:lol:

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ZR1 wrote:

Or do they take all, such threat as real and take great measures in the interest of public safety?

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What risk? There was no bomb. :quirky

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I've been holding my tongue on this thread but I just can't any more.

If some guy is in a bank and says he has a bomb, the police don't have magical powers to stop the BG and the bomb squad doesn't rush in and defuse (way different than diffuse) the bomb and most police departments don't have negotiators. I think someone watches too much television.

If the LEO get there, they don't let the BG go wander off. They draw their guns, keep him localized and try to get everyone else out of there. That is basically what the CC holder did here. Is that what any one of us would have done? Who knows. We were not there. There are so many variables in such a situation and the news reports so lacking in the type of detail we need to really assess the situation that there is no way to make many of the assertion made in this thread (and a few people have made assertions that are contrary to the little bit of info in the news stories).