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Thread: Utah gun owners open carry at West Valley City Hall and protest police ignorance of gun laws

  1. #1
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    http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=3559401with video showing OCDO's new web site main page!

    And FOX Utah covers the story with video too: http://www.myfoxutah.com/myfox/pages...p;pageId=1.1.1


    See also http://www.sltrib.com/news/ci_9617824



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    I was home last night. Fox 13 alsoran a video about this as thier lead-off story for the 9 pm news.

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    Bravo bravo guys, wish I could have made it. :celebrate

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    "After hearing the group's comments, the city council recommended the citizens file their complaints with the city's Professional Standards Review Board, which investigates concerns against officers."

    I didn't think that TJ wanted to file a "complaint". I thought that the whole idea of this was to have WVCPD educate their officers. It sounds like to me that WVC wants to create themselves and their officers a big headache by having complaints filed against them. What a waste of tax dollars. Wouldn't be easier to send a memo to your officers explaining the law. Hey wait, why don't we have a little training session to teach our officers how to handle guys like TJ when we do get the call. Let’s try a bit of civility and professionalism rather than "my badge says so".

    Good job TJ and company.:celebrate



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    At least the Salt Lake Tribune got it right. TJ just wants some education among officers.

    I don't know how they can call their officers trained since one officer was trying to tell us that open carrying a loaded firearm in Utah WITH a CFP is illegal :?

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    Yeah, I read that SLTIB this morning on it (was looking for it). Very very nice. I'm working on my firearms website and will be putting those articles in there.
    Charles A. Hall, self-proclaimed Lone Eagle || Carry: Kahr CW40
    Lone Eagle Observer (http://www.charlesahall.us)
    Facebook Page || http://twitter.com/CharlesAHall

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    State Researcher Kevin Jensen's Avatar
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    Here is the article from the Deseret News.

    http://deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,700235696,00.html

    West Valley hears defense of gun-carrying

    By Amy Choate-Nielsen
    Deseret News Published: Wednesday, June 18, 2008 12:03 a.m. MDT

    WEST VALLEY CITY — As Travis Deveraux stood at a podium and talked to the West Valley City Council Tuesday night, he looked as comfortable with his Smith and Wesson .40 caliber handgun proudly hanging on his hip as the mayor with his gavel.

    It didn't hurt that Deveraux, a West Valley resident, was flanked by 10 other men openly carrying their guns to make a statement in favor of their Second Amendment rights to bear arms. Deveraux, who says he's been handcuffed and harassed because of his gun several times in the last six months in the city, made a plea to West Valley's council to reconsider how the police respond to situations similar to his.

    "It's an awesome opportunity to live in a country where we have rights to carry a firearm," Deveraux told the council. "I appreciate the fantastic job the police officers do when they need to respond to dangerous situations, but I must demand that a change needs to be made to address certain issues — to protect our rights."

    Deveraux has a license to carry his weapon, but he's been confronted more than once because of it. In December, Deveraux was taking a walk around the block when a Granite school district police officer drew his gun on him and demanded he lie on the ground because the gun was openly displayed.

    A few months later, Deveraux was in a bank with his gun in its holster, but police officers were summoned, Deveraux said. The officers threatened to file charges against Deveraux for having the gun but never did. "I don't mind an officer approaching me and asking me questions, but I do mind when they put a gun on me and handcuff me for no apparent reason," Deveraux said. "What they should be afraid of is the criminal with the hidden gun."

    Some of Deveraux's supporters said West Valley City has an agenda against those who are legally allowed to openly carry their weapons, but Deveraux enthusiastically pointed out that permitted weapons carriers and police officers are "on the same side."

    "We're good guys and cops are good guys," Deveraux said. "We want to help each other out. That's what it's all about."

    West Valley City assistant police chief Craig Black said he only heard of Deveraux's complaints on Tuesday. The city's protocol for responding to 911 calls of a person with a gun is to send two cars to the scene, Black said.

    The officers don't know what they'll encounter when they arrive, so they are trained to respond in a way that will keep them safe, Black said.

    "Our officers don't know what they're responding to when they get that 911 call (reporting a man with a gun)," Black said. "People who are responsible enough to carry guns should understand that they may cause alarm. The officers are going to respond in a manner to protect the community they serve and their own safety."

    West Valley city manager Wayne Pyle said the city respects the residents' rights to carry weapons, but there won't likely be any policy changes because of the complaints. Pyle said police officers should always be polite and professional in the way they deal with the public and the department may do more training about laws pertaining to gun permits.

    "Training is always an issue," Pyle said. "It's always good to have these issues brought to our attention. If this brings more awareness and knowledge of the law for the officers, then that's a good thing."

    E-mail: achoate@desnews.com
    "An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life." Robert A. Heinlein

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    Regular Member Snoopy's Avatar
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    The "results" or better yet the "reaction" by the council and mayor is typical of local government... they feel they have to do something rather than just listen, thank the participants, and say "we will take that under advisement" or some other crafty phrase. By directing you/us to file a complaint with the review board, they feel good because they have made some effort to solve the problem. Now don't take this as complaining about the city council... its just my opinion of how elected officials feel that they have to do something to justify you leaving happy.

    In my mind, what occurred last night has gone a long way to solving the issue at hand .. would love to be a fly on the wall in the next PD Staff Meeting. The press coverage was very favorable and everyone came off as VERY polite... Great job guys.

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    State Researcher Kevin Jensen's Avatar
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    And here is the article from the Salt Lake Tribune.

    http://www.sltrib.com/ci_9619824

    And updated...

    http://www.sltrib.com/ci_9619863

    Gun-toting citizen says WVC cops harassed him

    Mar*a Villaseñor
    The Salt Lake Tribune
    Article Last Updated:06/17/2008 10:19:57 PM MDT

    Posted: 10:18 PM- WEST VALLEY CITY -

    With his Smith & Wesson .40 caliber, semi-automatic holstered on his right hip, Travis Deveraux addressed the mayor and City Council on Tuesday.

    He has been harassed by West Valley City police for carrying that gun and treated like a criminal, Deveraux said.

    "A criminal does not want [police] attention, and they will not openly carry a gun," he said.

    With 10 other gun-toting civilians - who came from as far as Bountiful, Santaquin and Lehi - to support him, Deveraux told the council that their police department has consistently overreacted to his gun carrying. And in one occasion last year, he said, the police officers violated his civil rights.

    Deveraux said he was walking around his neighborhood to exercise last December, when he was stopped by a Granite School District officer and "was informed that if I touched my gun, I would be killed." The officer called the West Valley City Police Department, Deveraux continued, three squad cars arrived, and he was detained and his gun taken from him - then, after a few minutes, he was released.

    Those were violations of his federal and state constitutional rights, said the Swede who became an American citizen this January. And they are civil rights abuses that he has only encountered in West Valley City, Deveraux said. "I don't blame them for being a little bit extra careful," he said, noting that the crime rate is high in Utah's second largest city, "but there's a line they crossed between being a little bit careful and a little bit too careful."

    Assistant Police Chief Craig Black said he hadn't been aware of the incident involving Deveraux until hearing about it at the City Council meeting. He said there would be a review of the case by the professional standards board to determined what happened.

    Matt Murray of North Salt Lake said he has never been bothered by any police officers for openly carrying his gun. Kevin Jensen of Santaquin said he has had a few police encounters that were "very professional ... they just want to make sure you're not a nutcase." But Jeramiah McDonald of Lehi said he has had problems similar to Deveraux's.

    McDonald said that because he is only 19 years old, he can't apply for a concealed weapons permit and his only option is to openly carry his guns. Because he felt police officers violated his civil rights, McDonald has filed a lawsuit.

    Deveraux said he doesn't want to sue anyone, or get an officer fired or fined. He wants West Valley City officers to be trained, or get more training on gun rights.

    Mayor Dennis Nordfelt encouraged Deveraux to file a complaint with the professional standards review board, which oversees any resident problems with the police department.

    Black said his police officers are trained on gun laws.
    "An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life." Robert A. Heinlein

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    I liked DN's Article better, however both are good.

    Thank you, EVERYBODY

    TJ

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    I thought the articles were great and the news coverage was pretty good as well. I am glad my husband was able to be there and to support you TJ.
    "When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty."
    Thomas Jefferson

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    thanks for doing this guys. you got great media attention and it was very positive coverage.
    thanks!

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    Thanks guys.



    I am so proud of the bunch of you that I am about ready to bust all my buttons.



    Tarzan
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    TJ, I think you should be nominated for the review board!:what:

    The members of the Citizens' Review Board serve for a two year term and are nominated from the community. Nominations are accepted by the West Valley City Manager and appointment is made by the West Valley City Council. The Review Board's chairperson is selected by the members of the board.
    Here is the link for the Review Board for West Valley City.

    http://www.wvc-ut.gov/index.asp?NID=132

    I give them kudos for having an easy, user friendly site where citizens can report an incident. They need to hear from anyone that has been mistreated during a terry stop. If you can post your gripe here you can send it to them as well. Lets keep this ball moving.

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    Regular Member thx997303's Avatar
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    McDonald said that because he is only 19 years old, he can't apply for a concealed weapons permit and his only option is to openly carry his guns. Because he felt police officers violated his civil rights, McDonald has filed a lawsuit.



    Damn media, I never said that I had filed a lawsuit. Crazy media, making up crazy things.

    I only said that i had a problem, but that I wouldn't comment on it.

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    thx997303 wrote:
    McDonald said that because he is only 19 years old, he can't apply for a concealed weapons permit and his only option is to openly carry his guns. Because he felt police officers violated his civil rights, McDonald has filed a lawsuit.



    Damn media, I never said that I had filed a lawsuit. Crazy media, making up crazy things.

    I only said that i had a problem, but that I wouldn't comment on it.
    Darn. I was hoping they'd gotten that right and that you HAD filed a lawsuit. From what little I know about your case (very little) it seems like a reasonable thing to do.

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    Regular Member thx997303's Avatar
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    Yeah, well I need to get the inital crap cleared up first.

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    thx997303 wrote:
    Yeah, well I need to get the inital crap cleared up first.
    Makes sense. We're pulling for you. Don't hesitate to ask if you need some help.

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    Regular Member thx997303's Avatar
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    Will do, Does anyone know how to get a police report?

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    thx997303 wrote:
    Will do, Does anyone know how to get a police report?
    Yes. In theory, at least. I've never actually done it. PM me your e-mail address and I'll help you put the request together.

  21. #21
    Founder's Club Member Tess's Avatar
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    Great stuff, you guys. You're doing good work. Keep it up.

    Read through the Virginia threads about Manassas (Jan 07). There is some good info on wording to use for FOIA requests, and actions that were taken there.

    You're unlikely to get action through the police department (in my limited experience) but the FOIAs will get you the information you need.

    Also note how many of us have taken to carrying pocket recorders whenever we carry. I don't know if that's legal in Utah; fortunately, it is for us.

    And congrats on the selection of the Thunder .380. I carried that for a long time, and have recently started carrying the Thunder 9mm regularly.
    Laws alone can not secure freedom of expression; in order that every man present his views without penalty there must be spirit of tolerance in the entire population. -Albert Einstein

  22. #22
    Regular Member thx997303's Avatar
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    Thanks Tess, I hope you like that 9mm.

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    Tess wrote:
    Also note how many of us have taken to carrying pocket recorders whenever we carry. I don't know if that's legal in Utah; fortunately, it is for us.
    It is. Utah is a one-party consent state for recordings.

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    A columnist for the Salt Lake Tribune has attacked those who attended the West Valley meeting.

    We need to flood this article with pro-carry comments!!!

    http://www.sltrib.com/ci_9648769

    Let's roll guys!



  25. #25
    Regular Member thx997303's Avatar
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    Made my own comment, and I sent this to the writer.

    Dear Rebecca Walsh, Thanks for your opinion on Open carry. However I have to disagree with your opinion. It's one thing to be careful with somebody with a gun, It's quite another to violate their constitutional rights.I am one of the gun crazy individuals who "stormed" the West Valley City council meeting. I really don't get why you would use such an aggressive word to describe our actions. I believe that the proper term would have been, peaceably assembled. I am unsure whether you were one of the reporters that were in attendance, but I don't believe that you were, as it was a very peacable meeting. I am also unsure of how you came to the conclusion that we are the "self-appointed, well regulated militia" and I wonder how we "undercut careful law enforcement, membership in a civil society and even reason." (edited out the S at the end of undercut so it would be proper grammer) And who did you interview before you came up with this gem? "It's in the Constitution, their thinking goes. They are "peaceably going about their business while armed," standing on the watchtower, the last line of defense against government tyranny and crazed criminals. We should thank them" I never asked for thanks, only recognition that it (Open carry) is a legal activity, and thereforea citizen doing it should not be harrassed by police. "But the OpenCarry movement is a mystery to me. What kind of psychology - overcompensation, paranoia, antisocial personality - is behind that thinking?" I personally do not find myself, Mr. Deveraux, my wife, or any of the people who I associate with to be Paranoid, or anti-social. As that is I take offense at this statement. "We have inconsiderate boors walking around on the street carrying firearms openly," says Gunn. "I don't think they are truly afraid for their safety. Most of them are trying to make a statement about the 2nd Amendment." Well, I personally am afraid for my self defense, as I have been shot by someone who meant to take my life, and I shot back. At the same time, Yes, I am trying to makea statement about the 2nd ammendment. People should know that they have a right to keep and bear arms, and they should also know that it is legal here in our great state. I also take offense to the statement that we are inconsiderate boors. Of course this is not yourr statement, but you did go out of your way to put it into your article. As far as Deveraux's situation in WVC, he was drawn on by an officer, who had their finger on the trigger, which any self respecting, responsible gun owner know you only do when fully intent on firing the weapon. He was then detained for an inordinate amount of time, until they finally decided that he had done NOTHING WRONG. Civil rights violation? Yes. Did Travis Deveraux bring a lawsuit? No. But he is complaining. I ask that you please study both sides of the "argument" before forming an opinion, and then publishing it. I saw that you quoted quite a few people on the gun control side of the "argument" but only a single quote from someone on the pro gun side. And that particular quote has been in the news before, on Fox 13, KSL, Your own Salt Lake Tribune. Please give us a chance to voice our side as well. Sincerely, Jeramiah McDonald

    OH, and it was more properly formatted but the post thing screwed with it.

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