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    Edit: I've noticed a lot of you have taken issue with my wording, so I've removed this post. Summary: Someone came in to the Specialty Center and quoted US code and RCWs to justify carrying on private property, according to the security guard.

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    Curious, but how do you know it was won of us knuckleheads?

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    'Twasn't me, and I think pretty much everyone here understands the wishes of a private property owner are tops.

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    My guard told me the gentleman informed him that he is a member of OCDO. My guard also mentioned that he was very polite and should now have in his hands a hardcopy of Group Health's policy on weapons. After the initial confusion wore off, it seems that my guard misunderstood the statement concerning thelaws... I straightened him out though.



    Edit: The gentleman was also described as older, well dressed in a button up shirt.

  5. #5
    Founder's Club Member - Moderator Gray Peterson's Avatar
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    Wasn't me, I live up in Lynnwood.

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    Regular Member Machoduck's Avatar
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    Saying that one is a member of OCDO does not make one a member. It's also not clear exactly what was said.

    MD

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    State Researcher Bill Starks's Avatar
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    Derka wrote:
    Ok. Which one of you knuckleheads walked into my facility and, after being asked to put the firearm in the car,told my guard that according to both US code and the RCWs that you can legallycarry onto private property against the wishes of the property owner?
    First off I was that guy and I was in the process of a medical emergency with my wife. I was told by "your guy" that the building was a federal building and carry was not allowed. I informed him that it did not meet the guidelines under the US Code and did not meet the guidlines for a restricted building under the RCW.
    I also asked him if this was someones personal preference or Group Healths Policy. Once I was informed that it was Group Health Policy, I asked for a copy of the written policy and then I went and locked the weapon in the truck.
    I was impressed at the way your guy handled the situation and the fact that a dozen security guards and Tacoma PD were not needed.

    The main issue at hand was a medical emergency in process. This was not some afternoon office visit.

    HOWEVER:
    It might help to replace the signage at the door. There are plenty of 12 inch signs at and near the door saying no smoking but the faded 4 inch no weapons sign is easy to miss.



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    Derka wrote:
    Ok. Which one of you knuckleheads walked into my facility and, after being asked to put the firearm in the car,told my guard that according to both US code and the RCWs that you can legallycarry onto private property against the wishes of the property owner?
    So do you head up security there, or run a shift?

  9. #9
    State Researcher Bill Starks's Avatar
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    I was going to edit my 1st post but decided against it. I do not want it to look like I am changing what was written.

    I pulled up to the doors, your guard should have made the folks move that were parked and blocking all kinds of spots out front but I digress. I pull up, get out and help her out of the truck. There are 2 nurses out front gabbing and some guy sitting in his truck. I help her into the triage area, fill out the form needed and went back out to move the truck. I came back inside and they had her in triage. I saw your guard walking around but paid it no mind. He finally comes into triage, excuses himself for interrupting. He asks if I was the guy carrying a gun. (At this point he had no description of me or what I was wearing, he was asking random men in the area.) I informed him I was carrying and he begins to tell me that I should put the weapon in my car. Thats when we went round and round about the US Code & RCW's. I asked for a copy of the policy and he said he would get me one. We were then moved to the Urgent care area where I continued to carry until she was settled in a room. Your security guy came to the room and informed me a copy was enroute at that time I went out and locked it up.
    The no weapons sign I saw was after I locked the weapon up. The pic I took did not come out otherwise I would have posted it for all to see. Go look at it, its faded to the point of barly being recognizied as a no weapons sign.

    After the wife was discharged I was looking for your security guard, he was no where to be found. The wife needed to get home or I would have had him paged. I wanted to get his name and supervisors name for my report of the incident. I will be making calls to Group Health on Thursday for this information and will follow up with letters and email about their policy and signage.

    Suggestion:
    Why not have a copies of the GHC Operational Policies available at the front desk or at least have him carry a copy in his rounds. This way your guy does not have to spend 15 minutes getting a copy to give out. According to the next to last paragraph of the policy and I quote "GHC will make educational materials available to consumers regarding this policy."

    All in all I was not there to promote Open Carry. I was there for a valid medical reason and because of the way in which your security guard handled the situation it did not get out of hand.

    The name calling did not get you anywhere but a letter from me to Group Health for berating a consumer on a public forum. Your Security guy however will be getting a letter of praise.


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    OC-PWNED!

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    M1Gunr, I must say that everything was handled very well on your end. My guard was quite confused when I told him that he was working on private property, something I'm going to have to deal with. Although I had no more contact with him than a couple of phone calls, I think I got him to understand pretty well how things work. I can't say that this won't happen again, but hopefully not from the same guy. I'm sorry to hear that your wife was hurt, I hope she recovers fully. I had no information that you were in the Urgent Care clinic. All I was told was that you had walked in the door. I assumed front door.

    In regards to your suggestion... Making policies and educational material available to the public is something that Group Health is responsible for. We are merely a contract security company. In a sense, it is available to you as the guard had access to a computer to print it out for you. I'm not sure if you are able to access it online, it would surprise me, but having a printed copy of policies would definitely be harder to dig through than a searchable computer file. I'll see what I can do about getting the signage replaced, and I'll see if I can get our other facilities checked as well.

    I'm sorry to all about the name calling, it was intended much less seriously than many of you have taken it. I did not mean to offend. Re-reading it, it does appear that I am angry. I'm not sure how that came about, I was laughing as I wrote it.

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    Regular Member gsx1138's Avatar
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    Wasn't me, I work at Tacoma General. We don't go near Group Death. :P
    "Think lightly of yourself and deeply of the world." ~ Musashi

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    Derka,

    Glad things worked out mostly ok.

    Regarding this:

    My guard was quite confused when I told him that he was working on private property, something I'm going to have to deal with.
    May I suggest you have some serious re-evalution of your orientation and training procedures, if "your guys" don't even know what kind of facility they're working at or what laws apply there.


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    Founder's Club Member - Moderator Gray Peterson's Avatar
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    Group Health Cooperative has a no guns policy but it's not posted at all places. I guess there's no way we can get them to reverse?

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    State Researcher Bill Starks's Avatar
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    Lonnie Wilson wrote:
    Group Health Cooperative has a no guns policy but it's not posted at all places. I guess there's no way we can get them to reverse?
    Lonnie the policy is very specific, I doubt we could. I'll ask and see if I can get an electronic copy for you to look over. I don't have it at hand but they are referencing a RCW that deals with Violence in the workplace.

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    Being in charge of security staffat a public utility company I can sympathise (sp?) with Derka but only a tiny bit...

    Coming on here and writing a very unprofessional public statement as your first post was a bad decision. Posting on here would have been fine, but since it was work related you really should have made sure it was in business language and more friendly... Also should have gotten more facts straight from your security officer prior to your post.

    I know here on my work site, all the officers know exactly what our policies are regarding firearms on site.

    Being a contract company I will say the fact that the security officer didn't have a copy of the corporate policy or quick access to it is to be forgiven. Most often contract security is given very little in regards to company information. They are after all a lowest bidder employee... (which sucks by the way)

    Around here if someone wanted the companies policies, from a security officer, they would give a name and form of contact (phone, email, or address) to one of our security officers and than they wouldgive it to me. I would than get the requested information and contact the person myself.

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    M1Gunr,

    By all means do, and if you can't get an electronic copy then at least post the RCW's they are referring to. I am by no means a lawyer, nor an expert on WA firearms law like Dave Workman, but I'm a bit dubious about their claim that there's an RCW that requires GH to have a no-firearms policy.


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    David.Car wrote:
    Being in charge of security staffat a public utility company I can sympathise (sp?) with Derka but only a tiny bit...

    Coming on here and writing a very unprofessional public statement as your first post was a bad decision. Posting on here would have been fine, but since it was work related you really should have made sure it was in business language and more friendly... Also should have gotten more facts straight from your security officer prior to your post.

    I know here on my work site, all the officers know exactly what our policies are regarding firearms on site.

    Being a contract company I will say the fact that the security officer didn't have a copy of the corporate policy or quick access to it is to be forgiven. Most often contract security is given very little in regards to company information. They are after all a lowest bidder employee... (which sucks by the way)

    Around here if someone wanted the companies policies, from a security officer, they would give a name and form of contact (phone, email, or address) to one of our security officers and than they wouldgive it to me. I would than get the requested information and contact the person myself.
    I'm sorry sir, I am in no way fully in charge of all 50+ oftheofficers posted in the 3 states I am responsible for during my shift. Nor am I in charge of contract mandated training, nor is this training personally done by me. I realize I have failed to clarify, I am a shift lead at the administrative headquarters. Any time something comes up that a guard feels he/she needs assistance in dealing with, I become the one in charge. I am in charge of my site while I am here, and all of the guards on my shift are fully aware of their responsibilities. All of our guards are given access to a resource website that they should know how to use. Unfortunately we have such a high turnover rate thatmany of our guards are not more than half trained by the time they leave and are replaced by another member of the sheeple herd. Problem with being lowest bidder contractor I suppose.

    So far as you assuming that this is my first post, I think you need to check your math skills. I've been a member of OCDO for months, as my profile indicates, and I have 20 posts on this site, not including this one. I wish I could be more active but I work too much for that.



  19. #19
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    Seeing as there is a demand for this, I'll post Group Health's policy here.





    Firearms and Dangerous Weapons in GHC Facilities
    Policy Number: F-07-008

    Adopted: 9/22/81


    Revised: 12/18/00




    POLICY

    This policy prohibits the presence of firearms and dangerous weapons within GHC facilities and establishes that all facilities owned or managed by Group Health Cooperative shall be GUN FREE ZONES. Under this policy any employee in possession of a firearm within a GHC facility may face disciplinary action including termination. A consumer in violation of this policy may be removed from the premises or terminated from enrollment. Visitors to GHC facilities, in violation of this policy, will be reported to police authorities.










    Firearms and Dangerous Weapons in GHC Facilities
    Procedures for: F-07-008

    Adopted: 9/22/81


    Revised: 12/18/00



    PROCEDURES

    Implementing Policy F-07-008


    Note: These procedures provide additional information related to Policy F-07-008, but are separate and distinct from that policy. The authorized Vice President retains discretion in implementing these procedures and can change them at any time, with or without notice.





    Explanation:
    This GUN AND WEAPONS FREE ZONE policy is designed to insure the delivery of quality services to GHC consumers in a safe environment and to enhance workplace safety for GHC employees.

    Applicability:
    This policy applies to all GHC consumers, employees, contracted service providers and visitors to GHC facilities.

    Exemptions: This policy does not apply to any person engaged in military activities sponsored by the Federal or State government, while engaged in official duty, law enforcement personnel, and Security personnel engaged in official duties.

    Possession of a valid concealed weapons permit authorized by the State of Washington is not an exemption under this policy.



    Scope:
    This policy implements the Anti-Violence Resolution recommended by the Board of Trustees at the 1994 Annual Meeting and subsequently adopted by the membership. That resolution requires that GHC shall develop a community-wide plan to prevent intentional injuries and acts of violence. This policy further supports the intent and requirements of the Revised Code of Washington chapter 49.19 regarding the prevention of incidents of Workplace Violence.



    Responsibilities:
    All GHC consumers, employees, contracted service providers and visitors to GHC facilities shall comply with the guns and weapons free zone policy by not carrying a weapon or by requesting the removal of any weapon they encounter.




    Definitions:
    "Firearm" means a weapon of device from which a projectile may be fired by an explosive such as gunpowder or any simulated firearm operated by gas, compressed air, or tension.
    "Dangerous weapon" means any instrument or weapon that can be used as a club and poses a reasonable risk of injury; also, any instrument of the kind usually known as a sling shot; sand club; or metal knuckles. A "dangerous weapon" can be a spring blade knife - or any knife, the blade of which opens, falls, or is ejected into position by the force of gravity or by an outward, downward or centrifugal thrust or movement - or any straight or fixed blade knife other than that specifically required for the performance of job responsibilities. A "dangerous weapon" also includes mace, pepper spray and stun guns.



    Selected Policies and Documents:
    GHC Policy A-03-001(5)
    GHC Policy F-02-015
    Revised Code of Washington Chapter 49.19

    Guidelines:
    "GUN AND WEAPONS FREE ZONE" signs shall be conspicuously posted within all GHC facilities and in parking areas and grounds surrounding GHC facilities, stating that "Firearms and other dangerous weapons are a health hazard and may not be carried inside any Group Health facility.
    Consumers: Any Group Health Cooperative consumer who is found to have a firearm or dangerous weapon on their person or in their control shall remove the weapon upon request of Group Health Cooperative personnel.

    Non-Emergency Consumers: Any consumer found in possession of any firearm or other dangerous weapon as defined above will be informed of the policy and required to remove the weapon prior to obtaining any services. Group Health Cooperative Security, or staff, will notify local law enforcement authorities if the consumer fails to comply with the request to remove a firearm or dangerous weapon. Consumers refusing to remove weapons after notice may be subject to termination from coverage as provided under GHC Policy A-03-001(5).

    Emergency Consumers: Group Health Cooperative Security Officers shall be notified when any consumer seeking emergency treatment is found in possession of a firearm or dangerous weapon. Security is responsible for notifying local law enforcement authorities to obtain necessary assistance.

    Visitors: Staff or security personnel shall request any visitor found in possession of a firearm or dangerous weapon to remove it from the facility and local law enforcement personnel will be promptly notified.

    Contracted Service Providers: Staff or security personnel shall request any visitor found in possession of a firearm or dangerous weapon to remove it from the facility and local law enforcement personnel will be promptly notified. Management representatives from the contracted service provider's company will also be promptly notified.

    Employees: Employees found in possession or control of a firearm or other dangerous weapon on any property under the control of Group Health Cooperative will remove the weapon upon request. Employees in violation of this policy are subject to disciplinary actions set forth in Group Health Cooperative policy F-02-015. Any employee concerned about personal safety may request an escort (e.g. to a parking lot off premises) or other appropriate intervention by security personnel at sites where available.

    GHC will make educational materials available to consumers regarding this policy and the magnitude of the firearm injury problem in the United States including its effect on health care costs.

    GHC will make training available to staff on crisis intervention and management techniques to facilitate implementation of this policy.






    Authorized Vice President: Scott Armstrong

    Designated Content Expert: Dave Pennington[/b]


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    Visitors: Staff or security personnel shall request any visitor found in possession of a firearm or dangerous weapon to remove it from the facility and local law enforcement personnel will be promptly notified.
    Derka, we appreciate that you're here and supporting the cause. This isn't directed at you, but the policy makers. (Now you see what we fightevery day!)

    Police notified why?
    (waste of taxpayer resources to make the policy makers feel like they're doing something against guns)

    What laws have been broken by a law abiding citizen carrying for self-defense?
    (none)

    Isn't itonly trespass if they refuse to leave AFTER having been told to?
    (yes)



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    Consumers: Any Group Health Cooperative consumer who is found to have a firearm or dangerous weapon on their person or in their control shall remove the weapon upon request of Group Health Cooperative personnel.

    Non-Emergency Consumers: Any consumer found in possession of any firearm or other dangerous weapon as defined above will be informed of the policy and required to remove the weapon prior to obtaining any services. Group Health Cooperative Security, or staff, will notify local law enforcement authorities if the consumer fails to comply with the request to remove a firearm or dangerous weapon. Consumers refusing to remove weapons after notice may be subject to termination from coverage as provided under GHC Policy A-03-001(5).

    Emergency Consumers: Group Health Cooperative Security Officers shall be notified when any consumer seeking emergency treatment is found in possession of a firearm or dangerous weapon. Security is responsible for notifying local law enforcement authorities to obtain necessary assistance.
    Visitors as opposed to consumers. Visitors are here on private business or for solicitation. A visitor with a gun is assumed hostile for some reason. Not sure why. I've contacted our head of security for clarification on a few things, particularly signage. Hope this makes sense.

  22. #22
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    Derka,

    Thanks for posting the GH policy.

    Everyone should take care to note that there isn't the slightest hint of a suggestion of a firearm ban in RCW 49.19, much less a requirement. What is required is to (a) have a "Workplace Violence [protection and prevention] Plan", (b) carry out "Violence prevention training", and (c) keep records of workplace violence incidents.

    I don't see anything in the entire chapter that would prevent GH from having a policy of encouraging their employees and customers to carry at their facilities, of paying a bonus to employees who obtain a CPL, etc... [OK, I can dream, can't I???]

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    Any employee concerned about personal safety may request an escort (e.g. to a parking lot off premises) or other appropriate intervention by security personnel at sites where available.
    Some more nits to pick:

    1. Is the escort armed, or are they just sacrificial lambs?
    2. Doesn't the last clause really say they don't have to provide for anyone's safety, anywhere, unless they feel like it?

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    All of our guards are given access to a resource website that they should know how to use. Unfortunately we have such a high turnover rate that many of our guards are not more than half trained by the time they leave and are replaced by another member of the sheeple herd. Problem with being lowest bidder contractor I suppose.
    I sure don't envy you that aspect of your job!


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    kparker wrote:
    I don't see anything in the entire chapter that would prevent GH from having a policy of encouraging their employees and customers to carry at their facilities, of paying a bonus to employees who obtain a CPL, etc... [OK, I can dream, can't I???]
    Hey man, your dream is my dream. I know I'm not the only one here who is not happy with a no weapons policy either. I find it interesting however, that the policy makes an exception for security to carry. Group Health has not once in its existence hired armed security. I've even had to correct a few employees who thought that we were armed. People feel safer knowing that there are guns protecting them and yet, the company is unwilling to provide that, or even allow it.

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