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Thread: Question About "1,000 Foot Rule in School Zones"

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    Ok so where does the 1,000 foot rule start? Is it at the schools Property? ie Grass, Parking Lot or is it the actual Building Itself?

    Also Say I'm driving down a block that is within 1,000 feet of the school in terms of radius but in order to actually get to the school you have to go around the neighborhood Example : Houses separate the School From you Directly. Which intern would be alot more distance than 1,000 feet.

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    the thousand foot rule starts from the schools property.

    as for the 1000yet seperated byneighborhoods, then you could say you didnt know a school was there as long as it isnt in sight. other than that i have no clue.

    Schools in clovis are sometimes right inside of a housing community, and its hard to really know a school was there unless you live there.


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    stevenrm87 wrote:
    Ok so where does the 1,000 foot rule start? Is it at the schools Property? ie Grass, Parking Lot or is it the actual Building Itself?

    Also Say I'm driving down a block that is within 1,000 feet of the school in terms of radius but in order to actually get to the school you have to go around the neighborhood Example : Houses separate the School From you Directly. Which intern would be alot more distance than 1,000 feet.
    School's property.

    While it doesn't say 'property', we can infer by the usage of 'grounds' that they mean the property on which the school stands which is usually bounded by fencing or other perimeter;

    626.9. (a) This section shall be known, and may be cited, as the Gun-Free School Zone Act of 1995.
    (b) Any person who possesses a firearm in a place that the person knows, or reasonably should know, is a school zone, as defined in paragraph (1) of subdivision (e), unless it is with the written permission of the school district superintendent, his or her designee, or equivalent school authority, shall be punished as specified in subdivision (f).
    (c) Subdivision (b) does not apply to the possession of a firearm under any of the following circumstances:
    (1) Within a place of residence or place of business or on private property, if the place of residence, place of business, or private property is not part of the school grounds and the possession of the firearm is otherwise lawful.
    (2) When the firearm is an unloaded pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed on the person and is in a locked container or within the locked trunk of a motor vehicle.
    This section does not prohibit or limit the otherwise lawful transportation of any other firearm, other than a pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed on the person, in accordance with state law.
    (3) When the person possessing the firearm reasonably believes that he or she is in grave danger because of circumstances forming the basis of a current restraining order issued by a court against another person or persons who has or have been found to pose a threat to his or her life or safety. This subdivision may not apply when the circumstances involve a mutual restraining order issued pursuant to Division 10 (commencing with Section 6200) of the Family Code absent a factual finding of a specific threat to the person's life or safety. Upon a trial for violating subdivision (b), the trier of a fact shall determine whether the defendant was acting out of a reasonable belief that he or she was in grave danger.
    (4) When the person is exempt from the prohibition against carrying a concealed firearm pursuant to subdivision (b), (d), (e), or (h) of Section 12027.
    (d) Except as provided in subdivision (b), it shall be unlawful for any person, with reckless disregard for the safety of another, to discharge, or attempt to discharge, a firearm in a school zone, as defined in paragraph (1) of subdivision (e).
    The prohibition contained in this subdivision does not apply to the discharge of a firearm to the extent that the conditions of paragraph (1) of subdivision (c) are satisfied.
    (e) As used in this section, the following definitions shall apply:
    (1) "School zone" means an area in, or on the grounds of, a public or private school providing instruction in kindergarten or grades 1 to 12, inclusive, or within a distance of 1,000 feet from the grounds of the public or private school.
    (2) "Firearm" has the same meaning as that term is given in
    Section 12001.
    (3) "Locked container" has the same meaning as that term is given in subdivision (c) of Section 12026.1.
    (4) "Concealed firearm" has the same meaning as that term is given in Sections 12025 and 12026.1.
    (f) (1) Any person who violates subdivision (b) by possessing a firearm in, or on the grounds of, a public or private school providing instruction in kindergarten or grades 1 to 12, inclusive, shall be punished by imprisonment in the state prison for two, three, or five years.
    (2) Any person who violates subdivision (b) by possessing a firearm within a distance of 1,000 feet from the grounds of a public or private school providing instruction in kindergarten or grades 1 to 12, inclusive, shall be punished as follows:
    (A) By imprisonment in the state prison for two, three, or five years, if any of the following circumstances apply:
    (i) If the person previously has been convicted of any felony, or of any crime made punishable by Chapter 1 (commencing with Section
    12000) of Title 2 of Part 4.
    (ii) If the person is within a class of persons prohibited from possessing or acquiring a firearm pursuant to Section 12021 or
    12021.1 of this code or Section 8100 or 8103 of the Welfare and
    Institutions Code.
    (iii) If the firearm is any pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person and the offense is punished as a felony pursuant to Section 12025.
    (B) By imprisonment in a county jail for not more than one year or by imprisonment in the state prison for two, three, or five years, in all cases other than those specified in subparagraph (A).
    (3) Any person who violates subdivision (d) shall be punished by imprisonment in the state prison for three, five, or seven years.
    (g) (1) Every person convicted under this section for a misdemeanor violation of subdivision (b) who has been convicted previously of a misdemeanor offense enumerated in Section 12001.6 shall be punished by imprisonment in a county jail for not less than three months, or if probation is granted or if the execution or imposition of sentence is suspended, it shall be a condition thereof that he or she be imprisoned in a county jail for not less than three months.
    (2) Every person convicted under this section of a felony violation of subdivision (b) or (d) who has been convicted previously of a misdemeanor offense enumerated in Section 12001.6, if probation is granted or if the execution of sentence is suspended, it shall be a condition thereof that he or she be imprisoned in a county jail for not less than three months.
    (3) Every person convicted under this section for a felony violation of subdivision (b) or (d) who has been convicted previously of any felony, or of any crime made punishable by Chapter 1 (commencing with Section 12000) of Title 2 of Part 4, if probation is granted or if the execution or imposition of sentence is suspended, it shall be a condition thereof that he or she be imprisoned in a county jail for not less than three months.
    (4) The court shall apply the three-month minimum sentence specified in this subdivision, except in unusual cases where the interests of justice would best be served by granting probation or suspending the execution or imposition of sentence without the minimum imprisonment required in this subdivision or by granting probation or suspending the execution or imposition of sentence with conditions other than those set forth in this subdivision, in which case the court shall specify on the record and shall enter on the minutes the circumstances indicating that the interests of justice would best be served by this disposition.
    (h) Notwithstanding Section 12026, any person who brings or possesses a loaded firearm upon the grounds of a campus of, or buildings owned or operated for student housing, teaching, research, or administration by, a public or private university or college, that are contiguous or are clearly marked university property, unless it is with the written permission of the university or college president, his or her designee, or equivalent university or college authority, shall be punished by imprisonment in the state prison for two, three, or four years. Notwithstanding subdivision (k), a university or college shall post a prominent notice at primary entrances on noncontiguous property stating that firearms are prohibited on that property pursuant to this subdivision.
    (i) Notwithstanding Section 12026, any person who brings or possesses a firearm upon the grounds of a campus of, or buildings owned or operated for student housing, teaching, research, or administration by, a public or private university or college, that are contiguous or are clearly marked university property, unless it is with the written permission of the university or college president, his or her designee, or equivalent university or college authority, shall be punished by imprisonment in the state prison for one, two, or three years. Notwithstanding subdivision (k), a university or college shall post a prominent notice at primary entrances on noncontiguous property stating that firearms are prohibited on that property pursuant to this subdivision.
    (j) For purposes of this section, a firearm shall be deemed to be loaded when there is an unexpended cartridge or shell, consisting of a case that holds a charge of powder and a bullet or shot, in, or attached in any manner to, the firearm, including, but not limited to, in the firing chamber, magazine, or clip thereof attached to the firearm. A muzzle-loader firearm shall be deemed to be loaded when it is capped or primed and has a powder charge and ball or shot in the barrel or cylinder.
    (k) This section does not require that notice be posted regarding the proscribed conduct.
    (l) This section does not apply to a duly appointed peace officer as defined in Chapter 4.5 (commencing with Section 830) of Title 3 of
    Part 2, a full-time paid peace officer of another state or the federal government who is carrying out official duties while in California, any person summoned by any of these officers to assist in making arrests or preserving the peace while he or she is actually engaged in assisting the officer, a member of the military forces of this state or of the United States who is engaged in the performance of his or her duties, a person holding a valid license to carry the firearm pursuant to Article 3 (commencing with Section 12050) of Chapter 1 of Title 2 of Part 4, or an armored vehicle guard, engaged in the performance of his or her duties, as defined in subdivision (e) of Section 7521 of the Business and Professions Code.
    (m) This section does not apply to a security guard authorized to carry a loaded firearm pursuant to Section 12031.
    (n) This section does not apply to an existing shooting range at a public or private school or university or college campus.
    (o) This section does not apply to an honorably retired peace officer authorized to carry a concealed or loaded firearm pursuant to subdivision (a) or (i) of Section 12027 or paragraph (1) or (8) of subdivision (b) of Section 12031.
    It is also of note, that this law only applies in areas that are not private property or inside a business or residence...(emphasis mine)- so it is possible to be in adherance to the law while shopping at the convenience store across the street from John F Kennedy Middle School, so long as you were on the stores private property or inside their place of business.
    New to OPEN CARRY in California? Click and read this first...

    NA MALE SUBJ ON FOOT, LS NB 3 AGO HAD A HOLSTERED HANDGUN ON HIS RIGHT HIP. WAS NOT BRANDISHING THE WEAPON, BUT RP FOUND SUSPICIOUS.
    CL SUBJ IN COMPLIANCE WITH LAW


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    Curious, would "private property" include a private school, or say a Catholic Church run school, even though it may be a K-12?

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    nice loop hole

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    Army wrote:
    Curious, would "private property" include a private school, or say a Catholic Church run school, even though it may be a K-12?
    private or parochial schools are still "schools" by definition.
    New to OPEN CARRY in California? Click and read this first...

    NA MALE SUBJ ON FOOT, LS NB 3 AGO HAD A HOLSTERED HANDGUN ON HIS RIGHT HIP. WAS NOT BRANDISHING THE WEAPON, BUT RP FOUND SUSPICIOUS.
    CL SUBJ IN COMPLIANCE WITH LAW


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    This is the information I was searching for. I don't want to get myself in an issue do to something like this. It is sad how EXACT we need to be to be able to enjoy our right to carry...

    If there is anyone in the Fresno/CLovis area who already open carries and wouldn't mind a tag along please pm me. I want to pop my open carry cherry BUT don't want to make a rookie mistake doing so....

    Any help would be appreciated.

    We have soooo many schools here in the fresno/clovis area its insane. I guess its a good thing for the kids BUT with a new school popping up everywhere it means I need to keep up on where and when they are getting put up....

    great info everyone

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    So federal law says you can drive by a school and not stop and you are good with the law, right? how could a person walking get past a school zone if they didn't have a lock box on them?

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    I wouldn't be concerned with Federal law. There is the California Gun-Free School Zone Act of 1995 to worry about:
    http://law.onecle.com/california/penal/626.9.html

    There is no exception listed anywhere in the code for driving past without stopping. Basically, the only way to be excepted is to have a LTC.

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    I would think this should be an easy law suit that we have a right to defend ourselves mostly anywhere but in the school zone, this law should pertain only to an illegal act. I would have to ask permission of the school to carry a gun open within 333 yards of a school is BS. I wonder if anyone has challenged this law? I will ask permission as soon as school is open and if they say no I may file a law suit against the law and the school if I can find a lawyer who will do it and it wont brake my piggy bank. Wonder if NRA ILA will help or anyone else, any ideas who would help?

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    LostCoast wrote:

    I would think this should be an easy law suit that we have a right to defend ourselves mostly anywhere but in the school zone, this law should pertain only to an illegal act. I would have to ask permission of the school to carry a gun open within 333 yards of a school is BS. I wonder if anyone has challenged this law? I will ask permission as soon as school is open and if they say no I may file a law suit against the law and the school if I can find a lawyer who will do it and it wont brake my piggy bank. Wonder if NRA ILA will help or anyone else, any ideas who would help?
    I was actually planning to do the same thing...

    My daughter starts school in Sept. I will ask the permission of the school to carry during drop-off,pick-up and passingONLY. If they say no then we challenge it.

    It makes since to me that if we are legally OCon a public streetwith a holstered weapon in a car we should be able to cross the zone provided the INTENT is to not stop or exit the vehicle. After all, in my basic understanding of statutes like this, they are"conceptualized" to be an extra punishment for people that are breaking other laws in a school zone, similar to declaring a "Drug-free school zone". It is intended to make the punishment harsher..not be a stand-alone infraction.

    The fun catch here is that even if legal OC we can not take out of holster to place in a trunk or else we will be guilty of brandishing. Perhaps you could argue entrapment if this problem arose?

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    Theseus wrote:
    LostCoast wrote:

    I would think this should be an easy law suit that we have a right to defend ourselves mostly anywhere but in the school zone, this law should pertain only to an illegal act. I would have to ask permission of the school to carry a gun open within 333 yards of a school is BS. I wonder if anyone has challenged this law? I will ask permission as soon as school is open and if they say no I may file a law suit against the law and the school if I can find a lawyer who will do it and it wont brake my piggy bank. Wonder if NRA ILA will help or anyone else, any ideas who would help?

    I was actually planning to do the same thing...

    My daughter starts school in Sept. I will ask the permission of the school to carry during drop-off,pick-up and passingONLY. If they say no then we challenge it.

    It makes since to me that if we are legally OCon a public streetwith a holstered weapon in a car we should be able to cross the zone provided the INTENT is to not stop or exit the vehicle. After all, in my basic understanding of statutes like this, they are"conceptualized" to be an extra punishment for people that are breaking other laws in a school zone, similar to declaring a "Drug-free school zone". It is intended to make the punishment harsher..not be a stand-alone infraction.
    The fun catch here is that even if legal OC we can not take out of holster to place in a trunk or else we will be guilty of brandishing. Perhaps you could argue entrapment if this problem arose?

    1. Brandishing a gun means you have to point it at someone as far as I know.

    2. or maybe act in an agressive mannor in some way without pointing.

    (not sure about the 2nd one)

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    You can brandish a firearm without touching it. You can touch your firearm without it being brandishing.

    It will all come down to convincing the jury that you were 'displying' the weapon to try to intimidate someone.
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    CA_Libertarian wrote:
    You can brandish a firearm without touching it. You can touch your firearm without it being brandishing.

    It will all come down to convincing the jury that you were 'displying' the weapon to try to intimidate someone.
    can you support this with laws? sections and such? I want to read it.

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    LostCoast wrote:
    CA_Libertarian wrote:
    You can brandish a firearm without touching it. You can touch your firearm without it being brandishing.

    It will all come down to convincing the jury that you were 'displying' the weapon to try to intimidate someone.
    can you support this with laws? sections and such? I want to read it.
    417(b)
    Every person who, except in self-defense, in the presence of any other person, draws or exhibits any loaded firearm in a rude, angry, or threatening manner, or who, in any manner, unlawfully uses any loaded firearm in any fight or quarrel upon the grounds of any day care center, as defined in Section 1596.76 of the Health and Safety Code, or any facility where programs, including day care programs or recreational programs, are being conducted for persons under 18 years of age, including programs conducted by a nonprofit organization, during the hours in which the center or facility is open for use, shall be punished by imprisonment in the state prison for 16 months, or two or three years, or by imprisonment in a county jail for not less than three months, nor more than one year.
    Pay special attention to the bolded wording (my emphasis).

    Let's say you have a concealed weapon in a IWB holster. Some punk gets mouthy with you, so you pull back your jacket (so he can see you're armed) and tell him to F off. That would probably be considered exhibiting a firearm in a threatening manner.

    Note that you can draw your gun and exhibit your firearm all you want, so long as you aren't doing it in a rude, angry, or threatening manner. This, of course is a bit vague. The jury will have to decide whether the drawing/exhibiting was rude/angry/threatening.

    ETA: Thanks marshaul for posting the link. Did a drive-by post on my way out the door this morning and didn't even think to provide the citations.
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    CA_Libertarian wrote:
    LostCoast wrote:
    CA_Libertarian wrote:
    You can brandish a firearm without touching it. You can touch your firearm without it being brandishing.

    It will all come down to convincing the jury that you were 'displying' the weapon to try to intimidate someone.
    can you support this with laws? sections and such? I want to read it.
    417(b)
    Every person who, except in self-defense, in the presence of any other person, draws or exhibits any loaded firearm in a rude, angry, or threatening manner, or who, in any manner, unlawfully uses any loaded firearm in any fight or quarrel upon the grounds of any day care center, as defined in Section 1596.76 of the Health and Safety Code, or any facility where programs, including day care programs or recreational programs, are being conducted for persons under 18 years of age, including programs conducted by a nonprofit organization, during the hours in which the center or facility is open for use, shall be punished by imprisonment in the state prison for 16 months, or two or three years, or by imprisonment in a county jail for not less than three months, nor more than one year.
    Pay special attention to the bolded wording (my emphasis).

    Let's say you have a concealed weapon in a IWB holster. Some punk gets mouthy with you, so you pull back your jacket (so he can see you're armed) and tell him to F off. That would probably be considered exhibiting a firearm in a threatening manner.

    Note that you can draw your gun and exhibit your firearm all you want, so long as you aren't doing it in a rude, angry, or threatening manner. This, of course is a bit vague. The jury will have to decide whether the drawing/exhibiting was rude/angry/threatening.

    ETA: Thanks marshaul for posting the link. Did a drive-by post on my way out the door this morning and didn't even think to provide the citations.
    Loaded is the key word in that statement...should have been bold also.

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    Good point on that. I don't have time for research right now... but I'm pretty sure it's illegal to point an unloaded firearm at people. Hopefully someone else comes up with something.
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    I hope it is, if someone pointing any gun at me I would odds are shoot first..... I can't tell another persons gun is loaded and would not wait to ask IF it was being pointed at me whether agressive or with a smile....

    These laws seem to really depend on how good a lawyer is at "loop-holing" the d.a. I suppose.

    We will continue moving forward with these rights whether they want us to or not. The great thing is, it is OUR right by birth and not theirs to give....

    I wonder how hard it would be to reverse the 1k foot ruling especially with school shootings and so on going on. I would think it would make sense to allow responsible adults to carry EVERYWHERE.

    CA_Libertarian wrote:
    Good point on that. I don't have time for research right now... but I'm pretty sure it's illegal to point an unloaded firearm at people. Hopefully someone else comes up with something.

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    Code:
    626.9 (a)Any person who possesses a firearm in a place that the person  knows, or reasonably should know, is a school zone, as defined in  paragraph (1) of subdivision (e), unless it is with the written  permission of the school district superintendent, his or her  designee, or equivalent school authority, shall be punished as  specified in subdivision (f).
    Lets think about the meaning of "knows, or reasonably should know"

    Lets take dropping my daughter of at the sitters. I know that one route there is a school, because I travel it almost daily. There is a large sign out designating it a school and everything. Now that I OC I take the main road with no schools. In this case I would have reasonable knowledge.

    But what about this trip to Northridge? I don't live in the area and am quite certain I have never been there. Also, if the school is not obvious, say for example some private schools on Huntington Blvd. that are not overtly schools, but instead built as churches. . . I will not have reasonable knowledge of the presence of schools until I am either approaching the school, am in the zone, or if I research it and thus giving myself "reasonable knowledge".

    My interpritation is that this code was written so vaguely to offer a plausable defense to someone who had no intention to commit a crime in a school zone and was innocently passing by. My beliefe is that this allows us some wiggle room and also should not be considered an "ignorace is no excuse" punishable offense.

    Also, in Virginia I remember that the state actually posted signs up indicating when the 1000' zone began and ended. It was nice. Anyone noticed that here? I have not.

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    it all comes around to the DA's choice to go ahead or not and then the jury decides.

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    Sorry, CA_Libertarian, you quoted the law incorrectly. The part you quoted appears to offer stiffer penalties for brandishing a loaded firearm in a daycare center.

    Section 417 reads:

    (2) Every person who, except in self-defense, in the presence of
    any other person, draws or exhibits any firearm, whether loaded or
    unloaded
    , in a rude, angry, or threatening manner, or who in any
    manner, unlawfully uses a firearm in any fight or quarrel is
    punishable as follows:
    (A) If the violation occurs in a public place and the firearm is a
    pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon
    the person, by imprisonment in a county jail for not less than three
    months and not more than one year, by a fine not to exceed one
    thousand dollars ($1,000), or by both that fine and imprisonment.

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    LostCoast wrote:
    it all comes around to the DA's choice to go ahead or not and then the jury decides.
    This is where knowledge of the statute comes in. I don't belive it would be hard to convince a DA that the wording is vague enough that a trial could go either way, but would instead go your way. . . But I am no lawyer. Figure it is worth the shot.

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    I think I remember some other section that expands the definition of "school zone" to inlclude "any place where a teacher is instructingtwo or more students in connection with a school activity!" Can you believe that? I am legally at a bowling alley and unbenownst to me there is a High School bowling team practicing. . . Now I am in a school zone. This is rediculous.
    That is why I firmly belive that this section of legislation is to be considered more like the extra penalties for gang members. . . It is not intended to be used to hassle otherwise law abiding people, as is there more to catch someone whom has committed a crime in one of these zones, or for someone whom has criminal intent.

    I think this is definately a code we should bring up to judicial review.

    It is late tonight, but I will be sure to find it again.

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