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OC in Bars
- Thread starter ComSec
- Start date
deepdiver
Campaign Veteran
imported post
I am not aware of any state prohibition for OC in bars or any other state law regarding OC, however, remember that MO does NOT have preemption for OC and municipalities can pass whatever restrictive ordinances they want. It is important to search the muni codes of the city in which you plan to be carrying.
As a followup beyond the OP, it is also not illegal to drink while carrying, however, being intoxicated with a loaded firearm in your possession (and possession is very broadly interpreted) is a felony.
I am not aware of any state prohibition for OC in bars or any other state law regarding OC, however, remember that MO does NOT have preemption for OC and municipalities can pass whatever restrictive ordinances they want. It is important to search the muni codes of the city in which you plan to be carrying.
As a followup beyond the OP, it is also not illegal to drink while carrying, however, being intoxicated with a loaded firearm in your possession (and possession is very broadly interpreted) is a felony.
brolin_1911a1
Regular Member
imported post
As deepdiver said, there is no mention of open carrying in bars in the state law. However, there could easily be a local ordinance against it. State law does forbid concealed carry in bars.
As for defining possession while intoxicated, that is in RSMo. 571.030(5). RSMo. 571.030.3 states. "Subdivisions (1), (5), (8), and (10) of subsection 1 of this section do not apply when the actor is transporting such weapons in a nonfunctioning state or in an unloaded state when ammunition is not readily accessible or when such weapons are not readily accessible." That is as much definition of "possession" as one will find in the law. What nonfunctioning and readily assessible mean is up to the prosecutor, judge, and any jury.
The word "intoxicated" is also defined rather subjectively as "substantially impaired mental or physical capacity resulting from introduction of any substance into the body." Again, depending upon the locale that can be pretty subjective. The prosecutor for Cape Gerardeau, for instance, has let it be known that he'd like to cite for any possession of a firearm concurrent with any consumption of alcohol. Of course, local ordinance there already prohibits open carry so the question is moot with regard to open carry in bars.
http://www.moga.state.mo.us/statutes/chapters/chap571.htm
As deepdiver said, there is no mention of open carrying in bars in the state law. However, there could easily be a local ordinance against it. State law does forbid concealed carry in bars.
As for defining possession while intoxicated, that is in RSMo. 571.030(5). RSMo. 571.030.3 states. "Subdivisions (1), (5), (8), and (10) of subsection 1 of this section do not apply when the actor is transporting such weapons in a nonfunctioning state or in an unloaded state when ammunition is not readily accessible or when such weapons are not readily accessible." That is as much definition of "possession" as one will find in the law. What nonfunctioning and readily assessible mean is up to the prosecutor, judge, and any jury.
The word "intoxicated" is also defined rather subjectively as "substantially impaired mental or physical capacity resulting from introduction of any substance into the body." Again, depending upon the locale that can be pretty subjective. The prosecutor for Cape Gerardeau, for instance, has let it be known that he'd like to cite for any possession of a firearm concurrent with any consumption of alcohol. Of course, local ordinance there already prohibits open carry so the question is moot with regard to open carry in bars.
http://www.moga.state.mo.us/statutes/chapters/chap571.htm
klingonguy07
New member
imported post
As alcohol makes a fool out of anyone who consumes it in quantity, do you really want to be in a place where drunk people are carrying firearms (open or otherwise)bars and firearms do not mix. if you want to go to a bar, leave the hogleg at home. just advice from an aged one.
As alcohol makes a fool out of anyone who consumes it in quantity, do you really want to be in a place where drunk people are carrying firearms (open or otherwise)bars and firearms do not mix. if you want to go to a bar, leave the hogleg at home. just advice from an aged one.
Indeep-Cop
Regular Member
imported post
I meant 51% !
I meant 51% !
brolin_1911a1
Regular Member
imported post
Indeep-Cop wrote:
RSMo. 571.107 does state ".... No driver's license or nondriver's license containing a concealed carry endorsement issued pursuant to sections 571.101 to 571.121 or a concealed carry endorsement or permit issued by another state or political subdivision of another state shall authorize any person to carry concealed firearms into: ... (7) Any establishment licensed to dispense intoxicating liquor or nonintoxicating beer for consumption on the premises, which portion is primarily devoted to that purpose, without the consent of the owner or manager. The provisions of this subdivision shall not apply to the licensee of said establishment. The provisions of this subdivision shall not apply to any bona fide restaurant open to the general public having dining facilities for not less than fifty persons and that receives at least fifty-one percent of its gross annual income from the dining facilities by the sale of food. ..."
I read that to mean that those businesses which derive over 49% of their income from alcohol are considered bars in which concealed carry is forbidden. If you can find the provision regarding open carry I'd be happy to know.
That said, I agree with those those who have posted opposing any armed carry anywhere alcohol is being consumed and, as a concealed carry instructor, I so instruct my students. Even if one does not intend to consume alcohol oneself it is unwise to introduce a firearm into an environment where others are consuming it., This is especially true if open carry is the only option because of the possibility of some belligerent drunk attempting to disarm you.
Another instructor has pointed out and I agree that even if one is not drinking, should a ruckus occur in such an establishment one is likely to have beverages spilled upon one and end up smelling like a distillery. With possession of a firearm a felony while under the influence, that's an invitation to be arrested just on suspicion. Law or no law, alcohol and guns don't mix and make for a bad combination.
Indeep-Cop wrote:
If you can point to the part of the law forbidding open carry in such establishments I would appreciate being corrected. I've not been able to find it. The Missouri law regarding use/misuse of weapons can be found at <http://www.moga.state.mo.us/statutes/chapters/chap571.htm>. As far as I can tell only concealed weapons are forbidden in bars.IF you have a CCW, it is clearly stated that concealed and/Or open carried weapons are PROHIBITED in any business that derives 49% of their sales from alcohol in Missouri.
RSMo. 571.107 does state ".... No driver's license or nondriver's license containing a concealed carry endorsement issued pursuant to sections 571.101 to 571.121 or a concealed carry endorsement or permit issued by another state or political subdivision of another state shall authorize any person to carry concealed firearms into: ... (7) Any establishment licensed to dispense intoxicating liquor or nonintoxicating beer for consumption on the premises, which portion is primarily devoted to that purpose, without the consent of the owner or manager. The provisions of this subdivision shall not apply to the licensee of said establishment. The provisions of this subdivision shall not apply to any bona fide restaurant open to the general public having dining facilities for not less than fifty persons and that receives at least fifty-one percent of its gross annual income from the dining facilities by the sale of food. ..."
I read that to mean that those businesses which derive over 49% of their income from alcohol are considered bars in which concealed carry is forbidden. If you can find the provision regarding open carry I'd be happy to know.
That said, I agree with those those who have posted opposing any armed carry anywhere alcohol is being consumed and, as a concealed carry instructor, I so instruct my students. Even if one does not intend to consume alcohol oneself it is unwise to introduce a firearm into an environment where others are consuming it., This is especially true if open carry is the only option because of the possibility of some belligerent drunk attempting to disarm you.
Another instructor has pointed out and I agree that even if one is not drinking, should a ruckus occur in such an establishment one is likely to have beverages spilled upon one and end up smelling like a distillery. With possession of a firearm a felony while under the influence, that's an invitation to be arrested just on suspicion. Law or no law, alcohol and guns don't mix and make for a bad combination.
Mark Jones
New member
imported post
One should also remember if they have a sign on the door no firearms allowed, then in class they tell you either not go in there, or hide it well. I am not sure what the prospectus is for this but would hate to think it could jump up and bite you in the butt.
Mark
One should also remember if they have a sign on the door no firearms allowed, then in class they tell you either not go in there, or hide it well. I am not sure what the prospectus is for this but would hate to think it could jump up and bite you in the butt.
Mark
Indeep-Cop
Regular Member
imported post
I stand corrected, it is 51% of sales from ALCOHOL!
I stand corrected, it is 51% of sales from ALCOHOL!
Indeep-Cop
Regular Member
imported post
concealed firearms into: ... (7) Any establishment licensed to dispense intoxicating liquor or nonintoxicating beer for consumption on the premises, which portion is primarily devoted to that purpose, without the consent of the owner or manager. The provisions of this subdivision shall not apply to the licensee of said establishment. The provisions of this subdivision shall not apply to any bona fide restaurant open to the general public having dining facilities for not less than fifty persons and that receives at least fifty-one percent of its gross annual income from the dining facilities by the sale of food. ..."
Bottom line, I would NOT advise even trying to conceal such into ANY bar. Just inform the door personnel that there is a firearm in my truck out in the lot. You will get immediate respect, and if need be you can always take it outside. But then being "Under the influence" at the time of said shooting is another "Can of Worms" in itself!
There's usually a fool in almost every bar inside the premesis not there just to "Have a Drink"! Depression, anxiety,mixing with meds you never know who's got that "Chip"!!
:what:
concealed firearms into: ... (7) Any establishment licensed to dispense intoxicating liquor or nonintoxicating beer for consumption on the premises, which portion is primarily devoted to that purpose, without the consent of the owner or manager. The provisions of this subdivision shall not apply to the licensee of said establishment. The provisions of this subdivision shall not apply to any bona fide restaurant open to the general public having dining facilities for not less than fifty persons and that receives at least fifty-one percent of its gross annual income from the dining facilities by the sale of food. ..."
Bottom line, I would NOT advise even trying to conceal such into ANY bar. Just inform the door personnel that there is a firearm in my truck out in the lot. You will get immediate respect, and if need be you can always take it outside. But then being "Under the influence" at the time of said shooting is another "Can of Worms" in itself!
There's usually a fool in almost every bar inside the premesis not there just to "Have a Drink"! Depression, anxiety,mixing with meds you never know who's got that "Chip"!!
:what:
brolin_1911a1
Regular Member
imported post
Agreed. Even though the original topic was carrying openly the point is still the same. Guns and bars are a dangerous mix.
There's a thread going in the Denver Post's website right now regarding right to carry and violence in bars in lower Denver. Although I've been arguing for the RIGHT to carry, the WISDOM of doing so is another matter. If the bar is so rough and rowdy that you feel the need to go armed, prudence and wisdom should be telling you loudly that you shouldn't be going at all.
The old joke: Woman sees her date is armed and asks, "Are you expecting trouble?"
Date answers, "No. If I was expecting trouble we wouldn't be going. This is for the unexpected."
Point being that if the joint is rough enough that the need for the gun is likely, the benefits of going somewhere else are even greater.
Agreed. Even though the original topic was carrying openly the point is still the same. Guns and bars are a dangerous mix.
There's a thread going in the Denver Post's website right now regarding right to carry and violence in bars in lower Denver. Although I've been arguing for the RIGHT to carry, the WISDOM of doing so is another matter. If the bar is so rough and rowdy that you feel the need to go armed, prudence and wisdom should be telling you loudly that you shouldn't be going at all.
The old joke: Woman sees her date is armed and asks, "Are you expecting trouble?"
Date answers, "No. If I was expecting trouble we wouldn't be going. This is for the unexpected."
Point being that if the joint is rough enough that the need for the gun is likely, the benefits of going somewhere else are even greater.
Indeep-Cop
Regular Member
imported post
Exactly! Thank you!
Hence the term "Gun & Knife Bar"
No gun, no knife = NO ADMITTANCE!
NEVER attempt to try & take a firearm into a "BAR"
You're just asking for it,especially on weekends!
HooRah!
Exactly! Thank you!
Hence the term "Gun & Knife Bar"
No gun, no knife = NO ADMITTANCE!
NEVER attempt to try & take a firearm into a "BAR"
You're just asking for it,especially on weekends!
HooRah!
deepdiver
Campaign Veteran
imported post
Carrying in a place prohibited by RsMO 571 is not a criminal offense under state law. If you are asked to leave and do leave, there is no penalty (excepting if you do so habitually the Sheriff may have grounds to deny a renewal of your CCW). It is only if you are asked to leave and refuse that you can be cited and fined.
Carrying in a place prohibited by RsMO 571 is not a criminal offense under state law. If you are asked to leave and do leave, there is no penalty (excepting if you do so habitually the Sheriff may have grounds to deny a renewal of your CCW). It is only if you are asked to leave and refuse that you can be cited and fined.
Richieg150
Regular Member
imported post
If my understanding in correct,you cant carry concealed in a bar that gets 51% of its money from booze,unless you have the owners permission.........Thats if you want to tell somebody in there you are carrying concealed.......
If my understanding in correct,you cant carry concealed in a bar that gets 51% of its money from booze,unless you have the owners permission.........Thats if you want to tell somebody in there you are carrying concealed.......
Richieg150
Regular Member
imported post
INDEED-COP..................You are intitled to your opinion,but trouble and those intending to cause it or do harm,dont stop at the door of a bar......If I go into a bar,and are carrying cancealed,thats just how I go in.I dont check my gun,or knife, at the door or leave it in the car or at home.I also dont drink,so I dont frequent bars to often.My family and friends know this and are at ease that if needed ,I will be ready.
INDEED-COP..................You are intitled to your opinion,but trouble and those intending to cause it or do harm,dont stop at the door of a bar......If I go into a bar,and are carrying cancealed,thats just how I go in.I dont check my gun,or knife, at the door or leave it in the car or at home.I also dont drink,so I dont frequent bars to often.My family and friends know this and are at ease that if needed ,I will be ready.
Indeep-Cop
Regular Member
imported post
And a mighty HOO-Rah!
"It's only wrong if you get caught"
Totally understood. I just hate getting called to break up the ones that escalate out into the lot with 10-20 people! Like trying to round up angry cattle sometimes!
Of course there's always "Backup"
Have a great 4th sir!
And a mighty HOO-Rah!
"It's only wrong if you get caught"
Totally understood. I just hate getting called to break up the ones that escalate out into the lot with 10-20 people! Like trying to round up angry cattle sometimes!
Of course there's always "Backup"
Have a great 4th sir!
Vegassteve
Regular Member
imported post
Indeep-Cop wrote:
Indeep-Cop wrote:
Then there would be a few more dead in a Reno bar last month. Thanks to a lawful CCW patron who stopped a shooting.
brolin_1911a1
Regular Member
imported post
Richieg150 wrote:
RSMo. 571.030, the section on unlawful use of weapons in general, says nothing about openly carrying firearms in liquor establishments of any sort other than to say that it is illegal to possess or discharge a firearm or projectile weapon while intoxicated. The term "intoxicated" in this statute is essentially a subjective term that is broadly defined as "substantially impaired mental or physical capacity resulting from introduction of any substance into the body." It is left up to the judge, jury, prosecutor, and LEO just what is meant by "substantially impaired."
http://www.moga.mo.gov/statutes/chapters/chap571.htm is a good site to keep bookmarked if you live in Missouri and believe in your right to carry.
Richieg150 wrote:
This is in reference to Missouri's laws only, but you've got that slightly reversed. The law does not say how much of the revenue must come from alcohol sales. Rather the law in RSMo. 571.107.1 forbids concealed carry in places serving alcohol for consumption on the premises unless the establishment derives at least 51% of its revenue from food, i.e., RSMo.571.107.1(7). " ... The provisions of this subdivision shall not apply to any bona fide restaurant open to the general public having dining facilities for not less than fifty persons and that receives at least fifty-one percent of its gross annual income from the dining facilities by the sale of food. ... . "
RSMo. 571.030, the section on unlawful use of weapons in general, says nothing about openly carrying firearms in liquor establishments of any sort other than to say that it is illegal to possess or discharge a firearm or projectile weapon while intoxicated. The term "intoxicated" in this statute is essentially a subjective term that is broadly defined as "substantially impaired mental or physical capacity resulting from introduction of any substance into the body." It is left up to the judge, jury, prosecutor, and LEO just what is meant by "substantially impaired."
http://www.moga.mo.gov/statutes/chapters/chap571.htm is a good site to keep bookmarked if you live in Missouri and believe in your right to carry.
Indeep-Cop
Regular Member
imported post
Hi, not to be a dick, but I do know that IF you leave the "Bar" with any B.A.C. and are unfortunately involved in an "Altercation", and someone else DIES as a result of your discharge of firearm,
[line]
Only because I've seen the result of this once recently here in Independence,MO Jackson county. :shock:
Hi, not to be a dick, but I do know that IF you leave the "Bar" with any B.A.C. and are unfortunately involved in an "Altercation", and someone else DIES as a result of your discharge of firearm,
[line]
Only because I've seen the result of this once recently here in Independence,MO Jackson county. :shock:
brolin_1911a1
Regular Member
imported post
Indeep-Cop wrote:
Indeep-Cop wrote:
Excellent point, Indeep-Cop. Every CCW instructor whom I know teaches their class that it is just plain foolish to risk drinking and packing. In fact, it is not worth the risk of carrying where liquor is being consumed by others. As one instructor I know points out, if you are carrying but not drinking and violence breaks out the next table over, you're probably going to end up smelling like a brewery or distillery. That along with the gun will probably result in a trip to a place you don't want to go even if only temporarily. Packing is about minimizing risks. Avoiding bars while packing is philosophically part of that minimization thought process.
Indeep-Cop
Regular Member
imported post
A huge THANK YOU!! for the backup!
Don't even leave the heat in your P.O.V.! Leave it at home if you can?
Then you're DWI / and CCW = NOT GOOD for your record!
Plus remember, when you all went to the DMV to get your CCW endorsements? As soon as I call in your plates, you come back as "Holder of CCW". Or A.K.A.(Linked)
Probable cause is now in effect, and now you have to sit & wait for myself to get 2 more officers "on scene" 'cause we have no clue what you have in your vehicle!Yor state of mind, wether or not youARE DUI/DWI,And trust me, neither of us want to find out........The Hard Way!
Accidents DO happen.:uhoh:
With utmost respects to all who may read this.
A huge THANK YOU!! for the backup!
Don't even leave the heat in your P.O.V.! Leave it at home if you can?
Then you're DWI / and CCW = NOT GOOD for your record!
Plus remember, when you all went to the DMV to get your CCW endorsements? As soon as I call in your plates, you come back as "Holder of CCW". Or A.K.A.(Linked)
Probable cause is now in effect, and now you have to sit & wait for myself to get 2 more officers "on scene" 'cause we have no clue what you have in your vehicle!Yor state of mind, wether or not youARE DUI/DWI,And trust me, neither of us want to find out........The Hard Way!
Accidents DO happen.:uhoh:
With utmost respects to all who may read this.