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Thread: Carry on School grounds RCW 9.41.280.

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    All the discussions below suggest both, can and cannot. I see read RCW 9.41.280. asI can? Please help?

    Dave, where can this book be purchased, is it in book stores? "Washington State Gun Rights and Responsibilities,"

    knight_308 wrote:

    Does that mean we can carry on school grounds? I thought that was a federal offense, permit or not.
    Gene Beasley wrote:
    Also in RCW 9.41.280

    (1) It is unlawful for a person to carry onto, or to possess on, public or private elementary or secondary school premises, school-provided transportation, or areas of facilities while being used exclusively by public or private schools:

    (a) Any firearm;

    [snip unrelated]

    (3) Subsection (1) of this section does not apply to:

    (e) Any person in possession of a pistol who has been issued a license under RCW 9.41.070, or is exempt from the licensing requirement by RCW 9.41.060, while picking up or dropping off a student;

    (f) Any nonstudent at least eighteen years of age legally in possession of a firearm or dangerous weapon that is secured within an attended vehicle or concealed from view within a locked unattended vehicle while conducting legitimate business at the school;

    (g) Any nonstudent at least eighteen years of age who is in lawful possession of an unloaded firearm, secured in a vehicle while conducting legitimate business at the school; or

    [edit] added link and reference to the RCW number
    just_a_car wrote:
    To put what Gene posted in perspective, unless you're picking up or dropping off a student, there's no way to go CC or OC onto primary or secondary school grounds.

    Therefore, as per section (f) and (g) listed above, you have to lock up your pistol in your car while at the school unless picking up or dropping off a student. Doesn't help immediately stop a shooter at a school, but it does allow you to retreive it in case of such an event.
    Gene Beasley wrote:
    (e) Any person in possession of a pistol who has been issued a license under RCW
    9.41.070, or is exempt from the licensing requirement by RCW 9.41.060, while picking up or dropping off a student;
    Ok, I have to ask for clarification.

    M1Gunr wrote
    Does this mean I can get out of the vehicle and walk to the door to pick them up? Or must one remain in the vehicle?

    If my child is being held in the Principle's office and I must pick them up can I carry into the school?

    My child gets hurt while at school and is in the nurses office and I have to pick them up. Am I legal to carry onto the school grounds and into the building?
    [/quote]
    M1Gunr wrote:
    Ok, I have to ask for clarification.



    amlevin wrote:
    Does this mean I can get out of the vehicle and walk to the door to pick them up? Or must one remain in the vehicle?

    If my child is being held in the Principle's office and I must pick them up can I carry into the school?

    My child gets hurt while at school and is in the nurses office and I have to pick them up. Am I legal to carry onto the school grounds and into the building?
    If you are CC, what is the question, point being who would know?

    If you are OC, I can guarantee that some school "incharge ninny" would soil their linens if they saw the gun, regardless if you had a justification under the law. They would call the cops who would no doubt respond with a regional SWAT team. Be assured that YOU would be the lead story that night on TV.

    The way I read the law you should be legal either way. The way THEY read the law is all that is going to matter.
    nathan wrote:
    You cannot legally OC or CC inside any public or private elementary or secondary school.

    9.41.280
    (5) Except as provided in subsection (3)(b), (c), (f), and (h) of this section, firearms are not permitted in a public or private school building.
    kparker wrote:
    To further clarify M1Gunr's question, note that the list of exceptions Nathan quotes does not include section (e) ("Any person in possession of a pistol who has been issued a license under RCW 9.41.070 ... while picking up or dropping off a student".)

    In other words, you can have your loaded handgun with you in your car, on school property, while pickup up or dropping off a student, but may not enter any school building unless you qualify under one of the other exceptions to this prohibition. (This section of the RCW doesn't actually address the loaded question, but since you can't carry loaded in your vehicle w/o a CPL...)

    just_a_car wrote:
    Um, you guys may want to read my post at the bottom of page 11... as I already stated what most of you are posting.
    M1Gunr wrote:
    amlevin
    wrote:
    The way I read the law you should be legal either way. The way THEY read the law is all that is going to matter.
    +1
    To pick up or drop off. One cannot "read" into the way the law was written. It does not say remain in your car, the driveway or wait by the sidewalk, it simply says to pick up or drop off. However, I am not going to be the test case unless I get lots of money for my legal defense and a OCDO tshirt for my mug shot.
    Izzle wrote:
    M1Gunr
    wrote:
    amlevin wrote:
    The way I read the law you should be legal either way. The way THEY read the law is all that is going to matter.
    +1
    To pick up or drop off. One cannot "read" into the way the law was written. It does not say remain in your car, the driveway or wait by the sidewalk, it simply says to pick up or drop off. However, I am not going to be the test case unless I get lots of money for my legal defense and a OCDO tshirt for my mug shot.
    i agree dropping of a student could mean walking them to their class but oh man i would not wont to test this, the police would not be gentle in "detaining" you. I kinda wanna call the local school district and ask them what they think but my guess would be that they have no idea about this exception.
    joeroket wrote:
    I have carried while walking my kids to thier classes. I did not enter, but then again I never did when I took them to school. This was long before I knew OC was legal but i would not have OC'd while on school grounds regardless of being legal or not just due to the fact that it would be extremely disruptive to the whole school and kids education is way more important than me OC'ing.

    So after looking at the RCW again it apparently is OK to carry your firearm into the building as long as you are non-student and the firearm is secured in an attended vehicle. So if you drive into the building it is ok to have your firearm in the car. That sure makes alot of sense.
    joeroket wrote:
    Izzle
    wrote:
    M1Gunr wrote:
    amlevin wrote:
    The way I read the law you should be legal either way. The way THEY read the law is all that is going to matter.
    +1
    To pick up or drop off. One cannot "read" into the way the law was written. It does not say remain in your car, the driveway or wait by the sidewalk, it simply says to pick up or drop off. However, I am not going to be the test case unless I get lots of money for my legal defense and a OCDO tshirt for my mug shot.
    i agree dropping of a student could mean walking them to their class but oh man i would not wont to test this, the police would not be gentle in "detaining" you. I kinda wanna call the local school district and ask them what they think but my guess would be that they have no idea about this exception.
    A district is going to tell you that firearms are not permitted as it is a federal gun free zone.

    Trust me on this one. I work for a school district and have asked numerous administrators about how they would handle a firearm on campus in accordance with the laws and everyone of them told me that there are no laws allowing firearms on school grounds. Boy were they suprised when I proved them wrong.
    Dave Workman wrote:
    Why are some people suddenly so interested in trotting into a public school with a firearm?

    (DISCLAIMER: I hate gun free zones, write about them constantly, have criticized them in my book "America Fights Back: Armed Self-Defense in a Violent Age, and would be delighted if they were all abolished.)

    So, this some kind of "in your face with my gun rights" kind of thing, or what?

    This started as a thread about Greg Nickels banning guns in city parks and other city property in Seattle, which is clearly an illegal act. However, the ban on guns in schools was done by the Legislature under its preemption authority.

    If we're going to bitch about Nickels exceeding his authority under the law, maybe we ought to stick with that. His proclamation had nothing to do with school grounds.
    Lonnie Wilson wrote:
    Agreed, let's not involve schools in this whole situation (we're discussing Nickels decree). Personally, I believe that gun free zones suck, and that we should return to a pre-1993 state where guns WERE allowed to be possessed by CPL holders (it's that way in Oregon still), and so on. However, that's another time for another day on a different method of attack in terms of constitutional issues.

    I do not, as a general rule, recommend open carrying on school grounds even to pick up or drop off a student.
    kparker wrote:
    Dave,

    I think the conversation veered off in the school direction as a result of someone's response to Jeanne Kohl-Welles' statements on the linked video.

    Yes, it's quite a tangent, and not relevant to Nickel's ban per se.

    I'll also second your (and Lonnie's) advice not to conflate these two issues. Much as I, too, would like to see all gun-free zones vanish, it's going to be a much, much longer haul to even get to parity with Oregon or Utah in this arena, whereas with the Seattle thing we're only needing to push back against a threatened restiction of a well-established right. We're talking orders of magnitude more difficult for the school issue, and that will be a long, hard, slow campaign, with lots of need for care, planning, restraint, and subtlety. IMO, of course.
    joeroket wrote:
    If you read the last page there was a letter written to Sen. Kohl-Wells about this issue and in it was a correction to her mis-statement of the city having a firearm ban on school grounds. This generated a few questions which we discussed.
    Tawnos wrote:
    The main point is that the RCW doesn't strictly ban firearms on school grounds, per the claim. The RCW falls in line almost uniformly with federal legislation.

    The short of it is: concealed carry on school grounds with a permit is okay. Carry of any sort inside buildings if not a sheriff, blah blah blah is not okay (RCW 9.41.280 3e and 5).

    I'm not advocating doing carry meets or even pressing the issues, down that road is the short trip to demonization by those who would like our right stripped. Instead, the point is that it's not outright banned by the laws of the state, enacted to fall in line with the federal laws.
    Dave Workman wrote:
    Tawnos: Let's be careful here. The exemption in 9.41.280 (3)(e) is specific, and it applies topeople "while picking up or dropping off a student." Nothing more.

    9.41.280 (5) merely alludes back to (3) (b), (c), (f) and (h), all of which cover having firearms at gun shows, demonstrations, showings, lectures and firearms safety courses, and this should NOT be construed or interpreted as a pass for packing a concealed orOChandgun at these events. All such events must have the approval of the school officials, of course.

    Otherwise, "firearms are not permitted in a public or private school building."

    (f) you will notice, requires the gun to be secured within an attended vehicle or "concealed from view within a locked unattended vehicle while conducting legitimate business at the school."

    This would cover, for example, Joe Blow who is licensed to carry, who swings into the school parking lot to pick up his wife who works at the school. It does NOT give Joe a pass to wander around the school grounds packing a handgun.

    It was so much easier in the 1970s before "gun free school zones" became fad du jour of the anti-gun nuts.
    jbone wrote:
    style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff"The way I read is (3) b. gives those with CPL permission to carry on the grounds period! as long as you do not enter a building under (3) 5. Is my interpretation wrong? There is no mention of wondering, I attend many outdoor sport events with my child, can I carry now?

    (3) Subsection (1) of this section does not

    apply to:

    (b) Any person engaged in military, law enforcement,

    or school district security activities;

    (e) Any person in possession of a pistol who

    has been issued a license under RCW 9.41.070,

    or is exempt from the licensing requirement by

    RCW 9.41.060, while picking up or dropping off

    a student;

    style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff"(5) Except as provided in subsection (3)(b),

    (c), (f), and (h) of this section, firearms are not


    permitted in a public or private school building.

    Change: as long as you do not enter a building under (3) 5. - (5).


    Dave Workman wrote:




    jbone: Yes, your interpretation is wrong.

    You cannot carry while attending sports events with your child. The activities for which it is permissable to have a firearm in a school building are clearly spelled out, and (3) (c) makes it clear that the firearms permitted in such events are for instruction purposes, handling and display.

    Under (3)(f) and (g) it is abundantly clear that loaded firearms are not allowed inside school buildings...except as provided for in (b) for military, security or law enforcement.

    You're not reading the damn thing in its entirety, and that seems to be a problem around here. People are not reading the part that says "while picking up or dropping off a student."

    There's no mysteryto that phraseand no room for debate. This says what it says. You can haveyour gunon you while picking up or dropping off a student. It doesn't say you can take a leisurely stroll around the grounds while waiting for your kid, and it doesn't say you can go over to the football field, grab a dog and coke and sit in the stands...

    It only says what it says, and it means you come, pick up the kid, and get the hell off school property.

    I don't like it, we have tried to correct it in Olympia without success, and it is a dumb regulation, but it is still the rule, and we play by the rules.



    And a note: Kparker and nathan seem to understand all of this perfectly. Maybe you guys read my book "Washington State Gun Rights and Responsibilities," ((not to be confused with the little pamphlet.))
    jbone wrote:
    Can the Administrator move this to a new thread? I and others may have more questions,don't want to stray from Mayor Nickels.

    kparker wrote:
    jbone,

    Just create a new thread yourself if you have more to say/ask on the subject.

    And we'll take your comment here (and this one of mine) as a subtle hint to go over there and stop further discussion of the school-related stuff here. :-)
    knight_308 wrote:
    Sorry folks, this detour was my bad. I didn't know we could even have a firearm on school property (except for the drop-off exception) and was so shocked I had to ask for confirmation .

    It really sets my mind at ease since I occasionally need to deliver pizza to schools (at my night job) and don't want to have to tell my management (who is anti-gun) that I'm packing as an excuse for passing on the delivery.
    kparker wrote:
    knight_308,

    Just be sure to leave the gun inside the locked car when you get out, and you'll be legal.

    Iím proudly straight. I'm free to not support Legalization, GLBT, Illegal Aliens, or the Islamization of America.

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    If you are just a normal citizen carrying a firearm you can only carry it outside of your car on school grounds if you are dropping off or picking up a student. Not picking up or dropping off a student means that you must leave it in your car, out of sight in a locked car if you have to exit your car.

    Regardless of time or activity these are the laws regarding firearms on school owned property or any other property while being used exclusively by a school district. Under no circumstances are you allowed to carry your firearm into a building, unless you meet the following exemptions;


    (b) Any person engaged in military, law enforcement, or school district security activities;

    (c) Any person who is involved in a convention, showing, demonstration, lecture, or firearms safety course authorized by school authorities in which the firearms of collectors or instructors are handled or displayed;

    (f) Any nonstudent at least eighteen years of age legally in possession of a firearm or dangerous weapon that is secured within an attended vehicle or concealed from view within a locked unattended vehicle while conducting legitimate business at the school;

    (h) Any law enforcement officer of the federal, state, or local government agency.
    "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity."

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    Regular Member just_a_car's Avatar
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    I dunno... as Dave Workman stated, it's very clear (at least to me) where you can and cannot carry (whether OC or CC). You're either within one of those exceptions or you're breaking the law if you're on school grounds.
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    Ok, Now lets expand the question a bit.

    What is a "Public or Private Primary or Secondary School"?

    Obviously this includes:

    1. Public and Private Elementary Schools (K-?)

    2. Public and Private Middle. Jr High, & Sr High Schools (?-12)

    My question:

    Does this include private DAY-CARE centers?

    Day Care is now considered by many to be pre-school / early childhood education centers. Often the employees are required to be state certified as teachers.

    If it DOES apply to day care centers, what about those neigborhood day care centers that people often run in their homes?

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    Right Wing Wacko wrote:
    Ok, Now lets expand the question a bit.

    What is a "Public or Private Primary or Secondary School"?

    Obviously this includes:

    1. Public and Private Elementary Schools (K-?)

    2. Public and Private Middle. Jr High, & Sr High Schools (?-12)

    My question:

    Does this include private DAY-CARE centers?

    Day Care is now considered by many to be pre-school / early childhood education centers. Often the employees are required to be state certified as teachers.

    If it DOES apply to day care centers, what about those neigborhood day care centers that people often run in their homes?
    The accepted definition of a primary school is K-5 and for secondary is 6-12. Early childhood education programs and pre-schools would only apply if it was run through a primary school, which is the case in some Marysville schools. We have both running out of some of our primary and Alternative High schools. Anything under kindergarten is a pre-primary and anything over 12th grade is post-secondary.
    "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity."

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    joeroket wrote:
    (snip)
    ...and anything over 12th grade is post-secondary.
    ...also known as "Institution of Higher Education", as per the RCW. I am very familiar with that one, due to fighting gun-control measures brought to the floor and supported by my own legislator in Olympia.
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    now for the big question....what about attending an event held at the school that is not school related...church services, ski swap meet etc. just rented space from the school district on a non school day??

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    Sean wrote:
    now for the big question....what about attending an event held at the school that is not school related...church services, ski swap meet etc. just rented space from the school district on a non school day??
    If it's a property owned by a school district it's off limits as above mentioned.

    If it's a non-school property, but is being used exclusively for a school event (say a high school-level soccer tournament at a privately owned stadium/field), then it is also off limits during the time it is being used exclusively for a school event.
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    Sean wrote:
    now for the big question....what about attending an event held at the school that is not school related...church services, ski swap meet etc. just rented space from the school district on a non school day??
    There is an AGO that addresses this question. Essentially, it says that a facility is exclusively used for school purposes as long as it is owned and controlled by the school. So, no -- you can't carry to a ski swap meet held on school grounds. The district is exclusively using the building because they own the property and control the contractual use of it.

    http://www.atg.wa.gov/opinion.aspx?s...ic&id=9238

    It was written when Christine was the AG, so you can guess the slant it takes.

    By the way, the Guns Free Schools Act does not prohibit possession of a firearm on a school campus if the person is licenses by the state to carry a concealed weapon. Washington's statutes are more restrictive than Federal law.

    Charles


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    EDIT: see correction below.

    Let me try to summarize the situation, starting from the most restrictive case. Dave, please correct me if I get anything wrong (and yes, this is NOT legal advice.)
    1. If you do NOT have a CPL, you may have an unloaded handgun or long gun in your vehicle when you drive on school grounds (but for good measure it should be out of sight.) You must either (a) remain in the vehicle with the firearm at all times, or (b) leave the firearm out of sight, and lock the vehicle if you are going to exit the vehicle. (Note, too, that doing any of this w/o a CPL might fall afoul of the [editorial epithet omitted] federal GFS requirement, as w/o a CPL you don't appear to qualify under the state-licensed exception.)
    2. If you do have a CPL, but do not qualify under one of the extended exceptions (LE, gun safety demo, etc) then you may have a LOADED handgun or UNloaded long gun in your vehicle when you drive on school grounds. You may take your handgun with you if you exit the vehicle, but may NOT take it into any buildings or structures. (The RCWs are silent on the issue of concealed vs open, but you will be virtually guaranteed of attracting unwanted attention if you OC or take a long gun out of your vehicle, or even have it visible within the vehicle and it gets noticed.)

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    kparker wrote:
    1. You may take your handgun with you if you exit the vehicle, but may NOT take it into any buildings or structures. (The RCWs are silent on the issue of concealed vs open, but you will be virtually guaranteed of attracting unwanted attention if you OC or take a long gun out of your vehicle, or even have it visible within the vehicle and it gets noticed.)
    I can tell you right now that you're wrong on that. Please go back and read the many posts on this... you MUST MUST be picking up or dropping off a student if you exit your vehicle with your sidearm. If you are not picking up or dropping off a student and you exit your vehicle with your sidearm you are breaking the law. There is no leeway here.
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    Edit - sorry JAC, I got caught up and misread your last post and the question I posted was not needed.

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    Let me try to summarize the situation, starting from the most restrictive case. Dave, please correct me if I get anything wrong (and yes, this is NOT legal advice.)
    1. If you do NOT have a CPL, you may have an unloaded handgun or long gun in your vehicle when you drive on school grounds (but for good measure it should be out of sight.) You must either (a) remain in the vehicle with the firearm at all times, or (b) leave the firearm out of sight, and lock the vehicle if you are going to exit the vehicle. (Note, too, that doing any of this w/o a CPL might fall afoul of the [editorial epithet omitted] federal GFS requirement, as w/o a CPL you don't appear to qualify under the state-licensed exception.)
    2. If you do have a CPL, but do not qualify under one of the extended exceptions (LE, gun safety demo, etc) then you may have a LOADED handgun or UNloaded long gun in your vehicle when you drive on school grounds. IF you're picking up or dropping off a student*, you may take your handgun with you if you exit the vehicle, but may NOT take it into any buildings or structures. (The RCWs are silent on the issue of concealed vs open, but you will be virtually guaranteed of attracting unwanted attention if you OC or take a long gun out of your vehicle, or even have it visible within the vehicle and it gets noticed.) If you're not picking up or dropping off a student, you must leave your firearm in the locked car if you leave it.
    * Correction thanks to just_a_car.


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    kparker wrote:
    snipped
    I believe you nailed it. +1

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    M1Gunr,

    9.41.280 (3)(f): "...secured within an attended vehicle or concealed from view within a locked unattended vehicle while conducting legitimate business at the school..."

    OK, so that doesn't necessarily mean you the handgun-owner needs to remain in the vehicle with the gun, just that somebody does.

    Note, too, that I left off the trailing caveat "while conducting legitimate business at the school".


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    kparker wrote:
    M1Gunr,

    9.41.280 (3)(f): "...secured within an attended vehicle or concealed from view within a locked unattended vehicle while conducting legitimate business at the school..."

    OK, so that doesn't necessarily mean you the handgun-owner needs to remain in the vehicle with the gun, just that somebody does.

    Note, too, that I left off the trailing caveat "while conducting legitimate business at the school".
    As long as that somebody can legally possess it. If it is loaded then they must have a CPL.
    "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity."

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    Note, also, that paragraphs (e), (f), and (g) overlap quite a bit. In particular, (e) and (f) are virtually identical--the only person who can be "legally in possession" of a loaded handgun in a vehicle is a CPL-holder or equivalent, and picking up or dropping off a student is about a legitimate as business at school can possible be. The only difference is that (f) requires the pistol to remain in the vehicle, whereas (e) is silent on that subject. And (g) seems completely redundant to me--it doesn't grant anything that (f) doesn't already do.

    Can you tell this was written by legislators??? :-)

    --------------------

    (3) Subsection (1) of this section does not apply to:
    (e) Any person in possession of a pistol who has been issued a license under RCW 9.41.070, or is exempt from the licensing requirement by RCW 9.41.060, while picking up or dropping off a student;

    (f) Any nonstudent at least eighteen years of age legally in possession of a firearm or dangerous weapon that is secured within an attended vehicle or concealed from view within a locked unattended vehicle while conducting legitimate business at the school;

    (g) Any nonstudent at least eighteen years of age who is in lawful possession of an unloaded firearm, secured in a vehicle while conducting legitimate business at the school;



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    M1Gunr wrote:
    kparker wrote:
    snipped
    That's a bit personal to be discussing on a public form... :-)

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    M1Gunr wrote:
    kparker wrote:
    snipped
    I believe you nailed it. +1
    With the exception that, if you are picking up or dropping off a student, you MAY enter a building or structure. There is nothing in that statute that says you may not enter a building; it just states that if you are picking up or dropping off a student, you are exempt from section one.

    IANAL.
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    just_a_car wrote:
    M1Gunr wrote:
    kparker wrote:
    snipped
    I believe you nailed it. +1
    With the exception that, if you are picking up or dropping off a student, you MAY enter a building or structure. There is nothing in that statute that says you may not enter a building; it just states that if you are picking up or dropping off a student, you are exempt from section one.

    IANAL.
    No you cannot enter a building if you are picking up or dropping off a student. The subsection that deals with picking up or dropping off a student is subsection (e) and is not one of the ones listed in the exceptions for entering a building.

    (5) Except as provided in subsection (3)(b), (c), (f), and (h) of this section, firearms are not permitted in a public or private school building.
    "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity."

    "though I walk through the valley in the shadow of death, I fear no evil, for I know that you are by my side" Glock 23:40

  21. #21
    Regular Member just_a_car's Avatar
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    I stand corrected.
    B.S. Chemistry UofWA '09
    KF7GEA

  22. #22
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    I, too, stand corrected, as I missed the part about "picking up or dropping off a student"


    "If we were to ever consider citizenship as the least bit matter of merit instead of birthright, imagine who should be selected as deserved representation of our democracy: someone who would risk their daily livelihood to cast an individually statistically insignificant vote, or those who wrap themselves in the flag against slightest slights." - agenthex

  23. #23
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    I think the big problem with .280 is they have revised it subsection by subsection and now it is so screwy that the entire code section needs to be re-written.
    "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity."

    "though I walk through the valley in the shadow of death, I fear no evil, for I know that you are by my side" Glock 23:40

  24. #24
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    All the discussions below suggest both, can and cannot. I see read RCW 9.41.280. as I can? Please help?

    Dave, where can this book be purchased, is it in book stores? "Washington State Gun Rights and Responsibilities,"
    Washington State Run Rights and Responsibilities is on sale at:

    Tacoma:
    Welchers
    Mary's Guss
    Bull's Eye

    Puyallup:
    The Marksman
    Puyallup Guns

    Kent/Covington:
    Bear Arms

    Bellevue:
    Wade's
    Survival Arms
    Estate Arms

    Everett:
    Sam's Guns

    Burlington:
    Kesselring's

    Spokane:
    Sharp Shooting

    And a few other places.

    You can also get it at the Washington Arms Collectors gun show in Puyallup

    Or you can buy it from D&D Enterprises in North Bend, WA (send me a PM)

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