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Thread: Gander Mountain gets worse

  1. #1
    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    My daughter in law bought a Ruger Super Blackhawk over the weekend, from GM in Glen Allen.

    She used her Va Drivers License as the primary ID but they would not take her Social Security card or anything else that didn't have a State Seal on it, as the second ID.

    I told her to not deal with them.

    I really can't wait for Bass Pro to open. Between them and Greentops, Gander is toast here.

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    "believe" there is a Federal issue here also... can no longer use a Social Security Card to prove citizenship (to get a job). I have to go back and find where I read it.

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    LdoMaj_Ammo wrote:
    "believe" there is a Federal issue here also... can no longer use a Social Security Card to prove citizenship (to get a job). I have to go back and find where I read it.

    On the Federal side, most anything with your name and address can be used for the second ID. Electric bills, SS card has always been accepted as far as I know even though it doesn't have an address, but there is NO requirment that the second ID have a state seal on it.

    I suspect most of that is that fat assed ex cop that runs the gun department.

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    peter nap wrote:
    LdoMaj_Ammo wrote:
    "believe" there is a Federal issue here also... can no longer use a Social Security Card to prove citizenship (to get a job). I have to go back and find where I read it.

    On the Federal side, most anything with your name and address can be used. Electric bills, SS card has always been accepted as far as I know even though it doesn't have an address, but there is NO requirment that the second ID have a state seal on it.

    I suspect most of that is that fat assed ex cop that runs the gun department.
    You're right... sad to say too many folks out there making up their own rules as they go along

    The reference I read had to do with the form that is used to verify that someone is eligible to work in the US... becomes effective on 1 July 2008 when the old form I-9 expires

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    My wife visited a gun dealer to get a gun and because the ID did not have her "home address" they refused to accept it. We use a mail receiving location and she mistakenly told them this. I cringed when she opened her mouth as I knew this would not go over well.

    It did not and she was refused!!! She kicked herself in the butt afterward. They would have had no clue at all as the address looks like any other.

    The dealer yelled at her and mentioned that "The ATF may want to visit the house and check on the guns"

    AS IF!!!

    What happens to all those people that move AFTER the purchase??

    We will NEVER buy from them again. Actually... we have a connection now that will get us guns between cost and MSRP.


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    My local GM only asked for one form of ID when I bought my gun a week or so ago. The guy did get a little suspicious about my out of state area code until I explained it was a cell phone.

    On a semi-related note, they also have an odd sign saying all firearms must be checked at customer service, but CWP holders are excepted. Since it doesn't say anything about actually concealing, I've just been carrying openly. Nobody has said anything yet, if they do I'll just tell them I have a CWP.

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    I.

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    229.....I hadn't seen you post for a while. Had me worried.

    The problems with Gander Mountain go back to their Grand Opening. My wife bought herself a new shotgun on Opening day. The clerk corrected several items for her on the Federal form and he did it wrong. A few days later, she got a somewhat threating letter from the Firearms Department Manager.

    I came home and she was almost in tears. ASS WHUPPIN TIME.

    I went there and discussed it with him and he acknowledged the error was theirs. Also told me he was a retired LEO and I explained retired didn't count and an apology was coming one way or the other. He did apologize to her...sort of.

    Then there was the time that I couldn't get anyone to get a box of ammo from the stock room. The one employee who I could catch, just wandered off.

    The last straw was when I was trying to buy an electronic scope. All the samples had no batteries. I asked lard ass why and he told me people leave them on. If I wanted to see what they looked like, look on line.

    That's when I wrote the DM the email I posted a while back. They asked for my address so the manager could apologize and send me a discount coupon. My response was why send me anything since I said I'd never set foot in there again.

    And haven't!

    Now they come up with their own set of ID rules.

    I won't be sorry to see them go, they're as irritating as Dark Sun but their prices aren't as good.

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Bill in VA wrote:
    I don't know anything about Gander Mountain, but let's not bash the store or the clerk for refusing to accept your daughter-in-law's Social Security card. The clerk wasn't refusing to accept it because he was"making things up" but because Virginia state law requires a secondary form of ID in a firearms purchase to include the buyer's address on it (and the address must match that of the primary/government-issued ID.) As we all know, aSocial Security card doesn't have your home address on it.

    Granted, the clerk is probably some minimum-wage 20-something kid who likely only knows that a Social Security card is not an acceptable form of secondary ID, but not why it isn't acceptable.I'm sure his comment aboutabout it not having a state seal was his way of trying to rationalize it and hoping to sound intelligent. (It's a safe bet he didn't wonder why a federal card should have a VA state seal anyways.) And Greentops? I've been going in there for years, and if I had a dollar for every time I heard one of their clerks give out incorrect information (legal or technical) I'd probably have enough to buy new gun from them. And for what it's worth, they're not much different in that respect than most other gun stores. (Remind me to tell you sometime about argunig withmy local gunstore owner about whether he should log a bare virgin AR15 receiver as receiver, and not as a rifle or a pistol. But I digress...)

    Back on track, neither a Social Security card nor a birth certificate is an acceptable secondary form of ID since neither proves VA state residency. And citizenship has nothing to do with it either. It all hinges on residency. Your daughter-in-law could've shown a telephone bill, a personal check, fishing license, etc... to verify her residency.


    Edit: here's a quick run-down on what's kosher for a secondary form of ID (scroll about halfway down.) http://www.vsp.state.va.us/Firearms_VFTP.shtm

    Bill, you didn't read what I wrote. They wouldn't accept ANYTHING that did not have a state seal on it! She did try the telephone bill and the electric bill. NO STATE SEAL. He gets bashed for that...at least from me!

    Yep, Green\tops screws up all the time. All you have to do is call Pat or Donnie and it gets taken care of right away. Been dealing with them for over 30 years.

    I know what ID can be taken. I was an FFL for years and got tired of taking ID's.

    There just isn't any way to justify this.

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    When I went to buy my first handgun I brought my Drivers License and Passport. Boy was I surprised when the dealer sent me home to get my car registration.

    I wonder if this kid would have taken a Passport.

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    When Gander Mountain first opened, I approached them at their Grand Opening about conducting CHP classes there as I thought it would be a nice venue for training.

    Since then, I have contacted them numerous times by mail, phone calls, and in person visits, everyone from the Store Manager to the Operations Manager to the Gun Department Manager. Ihave been met with nothing but resistance and excuses each time. In the interim, 2 other companies have gotten in there conducting firearms training classes.

    Now that our company name is out there in the Metro Richmond area and business is growing by leaps and bounds. GM would have to do some real sweet talking to get us in there for training. I'm very unimpressed with their pedestrian way of operating a business.
    James Reynolds

    NRA Certified Firearms Instructor - Pistol, Shotgun, Home Firearms Safety, Refuse To Be A Victim
    Concealed Firearms Instructor for Virginia, Florida & Utah permits.
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    ProShooter wrote:
    SNIP When Gander Mountain first opened, I approached them at their Grand Opening about conducting CHP classes there as I thought it would be a nice venue for training.

    Since then, I have contacted them numerous times by mail, phone calls, and in person visits, everyone from the Store Manager to the Operations Manager to the Gun Department Manager. Ihave been met with nothing but resistance and excuses each time. In the interim, 2 other companies have gotten in there conducting firearms training classes.
    Sounds to me like they were putting you off because they hadsweetheart deals with the guys that "got in" (read that to mean the other guyswere already in by prior agreement), but Gander Mountain didn't want to tell you.

    I've learned from my experience in business that if you are getting this sort treatment, it often means there is something they're not telling you. In this case, I suspect that they were already planning to allow the other guys to use the place, but still wanted your business and student purchases, so they kept mum to avoid angering you.

    Something else I learned in business: what goes around, comes around. It may take two or three years, but if they treated you crappy, they'll treat others crappy, and the chickens will come home to roost. I've seen it happen.

    Another possibility is that someone is bad-mouthing you behind your back to the decision-makers. I've seen this in business, too, where the market has only a limited number of players. Sometimes it takes a little intelligence gathering. It may or may not pay off to try to handle it. But it might be worth a shot to clear up any false information.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Citizen wrote:
    ProShooter wrote:
    SNIP When Gander Mountain first opened, I approached them at their Grand Opening about conducting CHP classes there as I thought it would be a nice venue for training.

    Since then, I have contacted them numerous times by mail, phone calls, and in person visits, everyone from the Store Manager to the Operations Manager to the Gun Department Manager. Ihave been met with nothing but resistance and excuses each time. In the interim, 2 other companies have gotten in there conducting firearms training classes.
    Sounds to me like they were putting you off because they hadsweetheart deals with the guys that "got in" (read that to mean the other guyswere already in by prior agreement), but Gander Mountain didn't want to tell you.

    I've learned from my experience in business that if you are getting this sort treatment, it often means there is something they're not telling you. In this case, I suspect that they were already planning to allow the other guys to use the place, but still wanted your business and student purchases, so they kept mum to avoid angering you.

    Something else I learned in business: what goes around, comes around. It may take two or three years, but if they treated you crappy, they'll treat others crappy, and the chickens will come home to roost. I've seen it happen.

    Another possibility is that someone is bad-mouthing you behind your back to the decision-makers. I've seen this in business, too, where the market has only a limited number of players. Sometimes it takes a little intelligence gathering. It may or may not pay off to try to handle it. But it might be worth a shot to clear up any false information.
    Prior deals are a possibility with one of the trainers, but the other one only recently got in there.

    I think its more along the lines of no one there taking the ball and running with it. Its more a matter of timing and when you show up at their door. Someone got in there more often than I did and got the gig.

    That's fine with me though, we're doing just fine without their business.
    James Reynolds

    NRA Certified Firearms Instructor - Pistol, Shotgun, Home Firearms Safety, Refuse To Be A Victim
    Concealed Firearms Instructor for Virginia, Florida & Utah permits.
    NRA Certified Chief Range Safety Officer
    Sabre Red Pepper Spray Instructor
    Glock Certified Armorer
    Instructor Bio - http://proactiveshooters.com/about-us/

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    "Also told me he was a retired LEO"

    There's part of the problem you dared to question him!! I would shop at there competitor and send them a copy of the receipt each time.

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    GLENGLOCKER wrote:
    "Also told me he was a retired LEO"
    I was thinking about that, too. Policeman and gun dealer are two entirely different jobs. One has nothing to do with the other. Apparently he thinks he deserves some kind of expert points for his status as an "only one".

    Shop elsewhere.

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    Folks - this discussion is hurting my eyes! Where is cite to authority? Come on, this is OCDO not some anti-gunners' kitchen klatche! All of this stuff is easily googleable.

    Secondary ID in Virginia is required by Virginia law at § 18.2-308.2:2. Any of the listed items may be used as secondary ID, including a US passport with your hiome address written in pencil on the passport. The Virginia requirement for secondary ID goes way beyong federal law which merely requires a govt. issued photo ID, or collection of documents, which include a name, photo, date of birth, home address, and signature of the bearer. The Department of Criminal Justice Services was required by the legislature to issue a regulation on this matter, and has done so at 6VAC20-130-60.

    Note that a Social Security Card is not on the list of Virginia authorized list Secondary ID. Besides, SSNs cannot be required to buy gus per Section 7 of the Federal Privacy Act and the warning on both the ATF abnd VA gun purchase forms - nobody ever should be giving their SSN to buy guns - I can't even believe somebody on this board would be doing this this late in the game.

    If we have dealers willfully refusing to follow the law, then we must pressure them with laser focus to management and note also that the published regulation in thi smatter warns dealers: "While the dealer is required to collect sufficient information to establish the prospective purchaser's identity and residency from the form(s) of identification listed above, in no case is the dealer authorized to collect more information on the prospective purchaser than is reasonably required to establish identity and state of residence."6VAC20-130-60(b)(1)(f).

    --

    § 18.2-308.2:2. Criminal history record information check required for the transfer of certain firearms.

    A. Any person purchasing from a dealer a firearm as herein defined shall consent in writing, on a form to be provided by the Department of State Police, to have the dealer obtain criminal history record information. Such form shall include only the written consent; the name, birth date, gender, race, citizenship, and social security number and/or any other identification number; the number of firearms by category intended to be sold, rented, traded, or transferred; and answers by the applicant to the following questions: (i) has the applicant been convicted of a felony offense or found guilty or adjudicated delinquent as a juvenile 14 years of age or older at the time of the offense of a delinquent act that would be a felony if committed by an adult and (ii) is the applicant subject to a court order restraining the applicant from harassing, stalking, or threatening the applicant's child or intimate partner, or a child of such partner, or is the applicant subject to a protective order.

    B. 1. No dealer shall sell, rent, trade or transfer from his inventory any such firearm to any other person who is a resident of Virginia until he has (i) obtained written consent and the other information on the consent form specified in subsection A, and provided the Department of State Police with the name, birth date, gender, race, citizenship, and social security and/or any other identification number and the number of firearms by category intended to be sold, rented, traded or transferred and (ii) requested criminal history record information by a telephone call to or other communication authorized by the State Police and is authorized by subdivision 2 of this subsection to complete the sale or other such transfer. To establish personal identification and residence in Virginia for purposes of this section, a dealer must require any prospective purchaser to present one photo-identification form issued by a governmental agency of the Commonwealth or by the United States Department of Defense, and other documentation of residence. Except where the photo-identification was issued by the United States Department of Defense, the other documentation of residence shall show an address identical to that shown on the photo-identification form, such as evidence of currently paid personal property tax or real estate tax, or a current (a) lease, (b) utility or telephone bill, (c) voter registration card, (d) bank check, (e) passport, (f) automobile registration, or (g) hunting or fishing license; other current identification allowed as evidence of residency by Part 178.124 of Title 27 of the Code of Federal Regulations and ATF Ruling 2001-5; or other documentation of residence determined to be acceptable by the Department of Criminal Justice Services, that corroborates that the prospective purchaser currently resides in Virginia. Where the photo-identification was issued by the Department of Defense, permanent orders assigning the purchaser to a duty post in Virginia shall be the only other required documentation of residence. For the purposes of this section and establishment of residency for firearm purchase, residency shall be deemed to be the permanent duty post of a member of the armed forces. When the photo-identification presented to a dealer by the prospective purchaser is a driver's license or other photo-identification issued by the Department of Motor Vehicles, and such identification form contains a date of issue, the dealer shall not, except for a renewed driver's license or other photo-identification issued by the Department of Motor Vehicles, sell or otherwise transfer a firearm to the prospective purchaser until 30 days after the date of issue of an original or duplicate driver's license unless the prospective purchaser also presents a copy of his Virginia Department of Motor Vehicles driver's record showing that the original date of issue of the driver's license was more than 30 days prior to the attempted purchase.

    In addition, no dealer shall sell, rent, trade or transfer from his inventory any assault firearm to any person who is not a citizen of the United States or who is not a person lawfully admitted for permanent residence. To establish citizenship or lawful admission for a permanent residence for purposes of purchasing an assault firearm, a dealer shall require a prospective purchaser to present a certified birth certificate or a certificate of birth abroad issued by the United States State Department, a certificate of citizenship or a certificate of naturalization issued by the United States Citizenship and Immigration Services, an unexpired U.S. passport, a United States citizen identification card, a current voter registration card, a current selective service registration card, or an immigrant visa or other documentation of status as a person lawfully admitted for permanent residence issued by the United States Citizenship and Immigration Services.

    Upon receipt of the request for a criminal history record information check, the State Police shall (1) review its criminal history record information to determine if the buyer or transferee is prohibited from possessing or transporting a firearm by state or federal law, (2) inform the dealer if its record indicates that the buyer or transferee is so prohibited, and (3) provide the dealer with a unique reference number for that inquiry.

    2. The State Police shall provide its response to the requesting dealer during the dealer's request, or by return call without delay. If the criminal history record information check indicates the prospective purchaser or transferee has a disqualifying criminal record or has been acquitted by reason of insanity and committed to the custody of the Commissioner of Mental Health, Mental Retardation and Substance Abuse Services, the State Police shall have until the end of the dealer's next business day to advise the dealer if its records indicate the buyer or transferee is prohibited from possessing or transporting a firearm by state or federal law. If not so advised by the end of the dealer's next business day, a dealer who has fulfilled the requirements of subdivision 1 of this subsection may immediately complete the sale or transfer and shall not be deemed in violation of this section with respect to such sale or transfer. In case of electronic failure or other circumstances beyond the control of the State Police, the dealer shall be advised immediately of the reason for such delay and be given an estimate of the length of such delay. After such notification, the State Police shall, as soon as possible but in no event later than the end of the dealer's next business day, inform the requesting dealer if its records indicate the buyer or transferee is prohibited from possessing or transporting a firearm by state or federal law. A dealer who fulfills the requirements of subdivision 1 of this subsection and is told by the State Police that a response will not be available by the end of the dealer's next business day may immediately complete the sale or transfer and shall not be deemed in violation of this section with respect to such sale or transfer.

    3. Except as required by subsection D of § 9.1-132, the State Police shall not maintain records longer than 30 days, except for multiple handgun transactions for which records shall be maintained for 12 months, from any dealer's request for a criminal history record information check pertaining to a buyer or transferee who is not found to be prohibited from possessing and transporting a firearm under state or federal law. However, the log on requests made may be maintained for a period of 12 months, and such log shall consist of the name of the purchaser, the dealer identification number, the unique approval number and the transaction date.

    4. On the last day of the week following the sale or transfer of any firearm, the dealer shall mail or deliver the written consent form required by subsection A to the Department of State Police. The State Police shall immediately initiate a search of all available criminal history record information to determine if the purchaser is prohibited from possessing or transporting a firearm under state or federal law. If the search discloses information indicating that the buyer or transferee is so prohibited from possessing or transporting a firearm, the State Police shall inform the chief law-enforcement officer in the jurisdiction where the sale or transfer occurred and the dealer without delay.

    5. Notwithstanding any other provisions of this section, rifles and shotguns may be purchased by persons who are citizens of the United States or persons lawfully admitted for permanent residence but residents of other states under the terms of subsections A and B upon furnishing the dealer with proof of citizenship or status as a person lawfully admitted for permanent residence and one photo-identification form issued by a governmental agency of the person's state of residence and one other form of identification determined to be acceptable by the Department of Criminal Justice Services.

    6. For the purposes of this subsection, the phrase "dealer's next business day" shall not include December 25.

    C. No dealer shall sell, rent, trade or transfer from his inventory any firearm, except when the transaction involves a rifle or a shotgun and can be accomplished pursuant to the provisions of subdivision B 5 to any person who is not a resident of Virginia unless he has first obtained from the Department of State Police a report indicating that a search of all available criminal history record information has not disclosed that the person is prohibited from possessing or transporting a firearm under state or federal law. The dealer shall obtain the required report by mailing or delivering the written consent form required under subsection A to the State Police within 24 hours of its execution. If the dealer has complied with the provisions of this subsection and has not received the required report from the State Police within 10 days from the date the written consent form was mailed to the Department of State Police, he shall not be deemed in violation of this section for thereafter completing the sale or transfer.

    D. Nothing herein shall prevent a resident of the Commonwealth, at his option, from buying, renting or receiving a firearm from a dealer in Virginia by obtaining a criminal history record information check through the dealer as provided in subsection C.

    E. If any buyer or transferee is denied the right to purchase a firearm under this section, he may exercise his right of access to and review and correction of criminal history record information under § 9.1-132 or institute a civil action as provided in § 9.1-135, provided any such action is initiated within 30 days of such denial.

    F. Any dealer who willfully and intentionally requests, obtains, or seeks to obtain criminal history record information under false pretenses, or who willfully and intentionally disseminates or seeks to disseminate criminal history record information except as authorized in this section shall be guilty of a Class 2 misdemeanor.

    G. For purposes of this section:

    "Actual buyer" means a person who executes the consent form required in subsection B or C, or other such firearm transaction records as may be required by federal law.

    "Antique firearm" means:

    1. Any firearm (including any firearm with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system) manufactured in or before 1898;

    2. Any replica of any firearm described in subdivision 1 of this definition if such replica (i) is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition or (ii) uses rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition that is no longer manufactured in the United States and that is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade;

    3. Any muzzle-loading rifle, muzzle-loading shotgun, or muzzle-loading pistol that is designed to use black powder, or a black powder substitute, and that cannot use fixed ammunition. For purposes of this subdivision, the term "antique firearm" shall not include any weapon that incorporates a firearm frame or receiver, any firearm that is converted into a muzzle-loading weapon, or any muzzle-loading weapon that can be readily converted to fire fixed ammunition by replacing the barrel, bolt, breech-block, or any combination thereof; or

    4. Any curio or relic as defined in this subsection.

    "Assault firearm" means any semi-automatic center-fire rifle or pistol which expels single or multiple projectiles by action of an explosion of a combustible material and is equipped at the time of the offense with a magazine which will hold more than 20 rounds of ammunition or designed by the manufacturer to accommodate a silencer or equipped with a folding stock.

    "Curios or relics" means firearms that are of special interest to collectors by reason of some quality other than is associated with firearms intended for sporting use or as offensive or defensive weapons. To be recognized as curios or relics, firearms must fall within one of the following categories:

    1. Firearms that were manufactured at least 50 years prior to the current date, which use rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition that is no longer manufactured in the United States and that is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade, but not including replicas thereof;

    2. Firearms that are certified by the curator of a municipal, state, or federal museum that exhibits firearms to be curios or relics of museum interest; and

    3. Any other firearms that derive a substantial part of their monetary value from the fact that they are novel, rare, bizarre, or because of their association with some historical figure, period, or event. Proof of qualification of a particular firearm under this category may be established by evidence of present value and evidence that like firearms are not available except as collectors' items, or that the value of like firearms available in ordinary commercial channels is substantially less.

    "Dealer" means any person licensed as a dealer pursuant to 18 U.S.C. § 921 et seq.

    "Firearm" means any handgun, shotgun, or rifle that will or is designed to or may readily be converted to expel single or multiple projectiles by action of an explosion of a combustible material.

    "Handgun" means any pistol or revolver or other firearm originally designed, made and intended to fire single or multiple projectiles by means of an explosion of a combustible material from one or more barrels when held in one hand.

    "Lawfully admitted for permanent residence" means the status of having been lawfully accorded the privilege of residing permanently in the United States as an immigrant in accordance with the immigration laws, such status not having changed.

    H. The Department of Criminal Justice Services shall promulgate regulations to ensure the identity, confidentiality and security of all records and data provided by the Department of State Police pursuant to this section.

    I. The provisions of this section shall not apply to (i) transactions between persons who are licensed as firearms importers or collectors, manufacturers or dealers pursuant to 18 U.S.C. § 921 et seq.; (ii) purchases by or sales to any law-enforcement officer or agent of the United States, the Commonwealth or any local government; or (iii) antique firearms, curios or relics.

    J. The provisions of this section shall not apply to restrict purchase, trade or transfer of firearms by a resident of Virginia when the resident of Virginia makes such purchase, trade or transfer in another state, in which case the laws and regulations of that state and the United States governing the purchase, trade or transfer of firearms shall apply. A National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS) check shall be performed prior to such purchase, trade or transfer of firearms.

    J1. All licensed firearms dealers shall collect a fee of $2 for every transaction for which a criminal history record information check is required pursuant to this section, except that a fee of $5 shall be collected for every transaction involving an out-of-state resident. Such fee shall be transmitted to the Department of State Police by the last day of the month following the sale for deposit in a special fund for use by the State Police to offset the cost of conducting criminal history record information checks under the provisions of this section.

    K. Any person willfully and intentionally making a materially false statement on the consent form required in subsection B or C or on such firearm transaction records as may be required by federal law, shall be guilty of a Class 5 felony.

    L. Except as provided in § 18.2-308.2:1, any dealer who willfully and intentionally sells, rents, trades or transfers a firearm in violation of this section shall be guilty of a Class 6 felony.

    L1. Any person who attempts to solicit, persuade, encourage, or entice any dealer to transfer or otherwise convey a firearm other than to the actual buyer, as well as any other person who willfully and intentionally aids or abets such person, shall be guilty of a Class 6 felony. This subsection shall not apply to a federal law-enforcement officer or a law-enforcement officer as defined in § 9.1-101, in the performance of his official duties, or other person under his direct supervision.

    M. Any person who purchases a firearm with the intent to (i) resell or otherwise provide such firearm to any person who he knows or has reason to believe is ineligible to purchase or otherwise receive from a dealer a firearm for whatever reason or (ii) transport such firearm out of the Commonwealth to be resold or otherwise provided to another person who the transferor knows is ineligible to purchase or otherwise receive a firearm, shall be guilty of a Class 5 felony. However, if the violation of this subsection involves such a transfer of more than one firearm, the person shall be sentenced to a mandatory minimum term of imprisonment of five years.

    N. Any person who is ineligible to purchase or otherwise receive or possess a firearm in the Commonwealth who solicits, employs or assists any person in violating subsection M shall be guilty of a Class 5 felony and shall be sentenced to a mandatory minimum term of imprisonment of five years.

    O. All driver's licenses issued on or after July 1, 1994, shall carry a letter designation indicating whether the driver's license is an original, duplicate or renewed driver's license.

    P. Except as provided in subdivisions 1, 2 and 3 of this subsection, it shall be unlawful for any person who is not a licensed firearms dealer to purchase more than one handgun within any 30-day period. A violation of this subsection shall be punishable as a Class 1 misdemeanor.

    1. Purchases in excess of one handgun within a 30-day period may be made upon completion of an enhanced background check, as described herein, by special application to the Department of State Police listing the number and type of handguns to be purchased and transferred for lawful business or personal use, in a collector series, for collections, as a bulk purchase from estate sales and for similar purposes. Such applications shall be signed under oath by the applicant on forms provided by the Department of State Police, shall state the purpose for the purchase above the limit, and shall require satisfactory proof of residency and identity. Such application shall be in addition to the firearms sales report required by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (ATF). The Superintendent of State Police shall promulgate regulations, pursuant to the Administrative Process Act (§ 2.2-4000 et seq.), for the implementation of an application process for purchases of handguns above the limit.

    Upon being satisfied that these requirements have been met, the Department of State Police shall forthwith issue to the applicant a nontransferable certificate, which shall be valid for seven days from the date of issue. The certificate shall be surrendered to the dealer by the prospective purchaser prior to the consummation of such sale and shall be kept on file at the dealer's place of business for inspection as provided in § 54.1-4201 for a period of not less than two years. Upon request of any local law-enforcement agency, and pursuant to its regulations, the Department of State Police may certify such local law-enforcement agency to serve as its agent to receive applications and, upon authorization by the Department of State Police, issue certificates forthwith pursuant to this subsection. Applications and certificates issued under this subsection shall be maintained as records as provided in subdivision B 3. The Department of State Police shall make available to local law-enforcement agencies all records concerning certificates issued pursuant to this subsection and all records provided for in subdivision B 3.

    2. The provisions of this subsection shall not apply to:

    a. A law-enforcement agency;

    b. An agency duly authorized to perform law-enforcement duties;

    c. State and local correctional facilities;

    d. A private security company licensed to do business within the Commonwealth;

    e. The purchase of antique firearms as herein defined;

    f. A person whose handgun is stolen or irretrievably lost who deems it essential that such handgun be replaced immediately. Such person may purchase another handgun, even if the person has previously purchased a handgun within a 30-day period, provided (i) the person provides the firearms dealer with a copy of the official police report or a summary thereof, on forms provided by the Department of State Police, from the law-enforcement agency that took the report of the lost or stolen handgun; (ii) the official police report or summary thereof contains the name and address of the handgun owner, the description of the handgun, the location of the loss or theft, the date of the loss or theft, and the date the loss or theft was reported to the law-enforcement agency; and (iii) the date of the loss or theft as reflected on the official police report or summary thereof occurred within 30 days of the person's attempt to replace the handgun. The firearms dealer shall attach a copy of the official police report or summary thereof to the original copy of the Virginia firearms transaction report completed for the transaction and retain it for the period prescribed by the Department of State Police;

    g. A person who trades in a handgun at the same time he makes a handgun purchase and as a part of the same transaction, provided that no more than one transaction of this nature is completed per day;

    h. A person who holds a valid Virginia permit to carry a concealed handgun;

    i. A person who purchases a handgun in a private sale. For purposes of this subdivision, a private sale means purchase from a person who makes occasional sales, exchanges or purchases of firearms for the enhancement of a personal collection of curios or relics as herein defined, or who sells all or part of such collection of curios and relics; or

    j. A law-enforcement officer. For purposes of this subdivision, a law-enforcement officer means any employee of a police department or sheriff's office that is part of or administered by the Commonwealth or any political subdivision thereof, and who is responsible for the prevention and detection of crime and the enforcement of the penal, traffic or highway laws of the Commonwealth.

    3. For the purposes of this subsection, "purchase" shall not include the exchange or replacement of a handgun by a seller for a handgun purchased from such seller by the same person seeking the exchange or replacement within the 30-day period immediately preceding the date of exchange or replacement.

    --

    6VAC20-130-60. Preparing for a criminal history record check.

    A. General procedures.

    1. If any firearm which a prospective purchaser intends to obtain in transfer is a firearm as defined herein, the dealer shall request that the Department of State Police conduct a criminal history record check on the purchaser. The dealer may obtain the required record check from the department for purchasers who are residents of Virginia by telephoning the department, using the provided toll-free number, and requesting the record check. For out-of-state residents who purchase rifles or shotguns, the dealer may request the record check from the department by telephone, mail or delivery. However, Virginia residents may, if they elect, request the dealer to obtain a record check by mail. The initial required steps of completion of the VFTR, obtaining consent of the purchaser, determining residency and verifying identity are common to both telephone and mail methods of obtaining the record check.

    2. The dealer shall request a criminal history record check and obtain the prospective purchaser's signature on the consent portion of the form for each new transfer of a firearm or firearms to a given purchaser. One record check is sufficient for any number of firearms in a given transfer, but once a transaction has been completed, no transfer to the same purchaser shall proceed without a new record check.

    3. A criminal history record check shall be conducted prior to the actual transfer of a firearm.

    B. Completing section A of the Virginia Firearms Transaction Record: Obtaining consent for a criminal history record information check for firearms purchase.

    As a condition of any sale, the dealer shall advise the prospective purchaser to legibly complete and sign section A of a VFTR form.

    1. The dealer shall require the prospective purchaser to complete section A of the VFTR form in the prospective purchaser's own handwriting, and without the dealer's assistance. The purchaser shall answer the questions listed and shall complete the items that establish residency and describe identity, including name, sex, height, weight, race, date of birth and place of birth.

    2. If the prospective purchaser cannot read or write, section A of the VFTR form may be completed by any person other than the dealer or any employee of the dealer according to the procedures specified on the reverse side of the VFTR form.

    3. The dealer shall also obtain the prospective purchaser's signature or, if he cannot read or write, his mark, following the consent paragraph at the bottom of section A, which shall certify that the information supplied by the purchaser in section A is true and correct.

    C. Completing section B of the Virginia Firearms Transaction Record: Establishing purchaser identity and residency and dealer identity.

    Prior to making a request for a criminal history record information check, the dealer shall complete all of section B of the VFTR form for which the dealer is responsible. Information recorded on the VFTR form shall be sufficient to: (i) reasonably establish a prospective purchaser's identity and determine the residency of the prospective purchaser; and (ii) identify the dealer.

    1. Identify prospective purchaser and determine residency. The dealer shall determine residency and verify the prospective purchaser's identity as required in section B of the VFTR, by requiring at least two forms of identification that denote the address of the prospective purchaser. Only the forms of identification listed in this subsection shall be acceptable to establish identity and residency.

    a. For Virginia residents, the primary form of identification shall consist of a valid photo-identification form issued by a governmental agency of the Commonwealth or by the United States Department of Defense. Except where the photo identification was issued by the Department of Defense, the prospective purchaser shall furnish a secondary form of identification that includes an address identical to that shown on the primary identification and corroborates the purchaser's identification and residence in Virginia. A Department of Defense photo identification plus one secondary form of identification showing the purchaser's residence in Virginia meets the requirements of the exception. The following are acceptable forms of secondary identification:

    (1) Valid Virginia driver's license or photo-identification card issued by the Virginia Department of Motor Vehicles;

    (2) Passport;

    (3) Voter registration card;

    (4) Evidence of paid personal property tax or real estate taxes;

    (5) Automobile registration;

    (6) Hunting or fishing license;

    (7) Lease;

    (8) Utility or telephone bill;

    (9) Bank check; or

    (10) Other identification allowed as evidence of residency by Part 178.124 of Title 27, Code of Federal Regulations, and ATF Ruling 79-7.

    If, for purposes of this chapter, a prospective purchaser's Virginia residency is based upon active duty status with the Armed Forces of the United States with a permanent duty station in Virginia and the primary form of identification consists of a photo identification issued by the United States Department of Defense, the purchaser may use as a secondary identification proof of permanent duty station within Virginia signed by the station commander or duly designated representative. If such primary and secondary documentation are presented, the prospective purchaser shall not be required to present any other form of secondary identification listed in subdivisions C 1 a (1) through (10).

    b. For non-Virginia residents purchasing shotguns or rifles, the dealer shall require the prospective purchaser to furnish one photo-identification form issued by a governmental agency of the person's state of residence and one other form of identification as provided in subdivision C 1 a, which corroborates the identity and residency shown on the photo-identification form.

    c. The dealer will ensure that the form(s) of identification support the listing of the identifying characteristics and the resident's address as supplied by the prospective purchaser in section A of the VFTR.

    d. If the dealer discovers any unexplained discrepancy between the two forms of identification (different addresses, birth dates, names), the dealer shall not request a criminal history record check until the prospective purchaser can be adequately identified with two acceptable forms of identification as required.

    e. The dealer shall name and identify on the VFTR form the document(s) used to verify the prospective purchaser's identity and residence, and shall record all pertinent identifying numbers on the VFTR form.

    f. While the dealer is required to collect sufficient information to establish the prospective purchaser's identity and residency from the form(s) of identification listed above, in no case is the dealer authorized to collect more information on the prospective purchaser than is reasonably required to establish identity and state of residence.

    2. Identify dealer. The dealer or his employee shall note on section B of the form:

    a. The dealer's or employee's signature;

    b. His position title (owner, employee);

    c. The trade or corporate name and business address; and

    d. The dealer's federal firearms license number.

    Statutory Authority

    §§ 9.1-102 and 18.2-308.2:2 of the Code of Virginia.

    Historical Notes

    Derived from VR240-02-2 §2.4, eff. November 2, 1990; amended, Virginia Register Volume 8, Issue 3, eff. December 4, 1991; Volume 8, Issue 18, eff. July 1, 1992.

    Amended, Virginia Register Volume 21, Issue 16, eff. May 18, 2005.

  17. #17
    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Mike...where did the fixation on Social Security cards come from. YES.....she asked to use it, no they wouldn't take it, yes some dealers do take them illegally . End of the social security story. The real issue is "What do they take"?

    THIS IS A QUOTE FROM MY FIRST POST:

    they would not take her Social Security card or anything else that didn't have a State Seal on it, as the second ID.


    Now, let me strike Social Security Card

    they would not take her strike or anything else that didn't have a State Seal on it, as the second ID.

    The issue I have is that they are NOT following the law and only taking things with a state seal
    In other words, they're making their own rules.

  18. #18
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    What else has a state seal besides a driver's license, anyway? Certainly nothing in my wallet. I don't even think my voter registration card has one, but I never carry that anyway. This is absurd.

  19. #19
    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Tomahawk wrote:
    What else has a state seal besides a driver's license, anyway? Certainly nothing in my wallet. I don't even think my voter registration card has one, but I never carry that anyway. This is absurd.

    I guess a car registration has one. They finally agreed to take that. Thankfully, it was in both their names.

    We gave them the other car and paid the insurance for a year, so it was still in our names.

  20. #20
    Regular Member ProShooter's Avatar
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    Tomahawk wrote:
    What else has a state seal besides a driver's license, anyway? Certainly nothing in my wallet. I don't even think my voter registration card has one, but I never carry that anyway. This is absurd.
    Driver's License

    Concealed Handgun Permit

    Voter Registration card

    and that's just what I found in my wallet......there may be more..



    Jim
    James Reynolds

    NRA Certified Firearms Instructor - Pistol, Shotgun, Home Firearms Safety, Refuse To Be A Victim
    Concealed Firearms Instructor for Virginia, Florida & Utah permits.
    NRA Certified Chief Range Safety Officer
    Sabre Red Pepper Spray Instructor
    Glock Certified Armorer
    Instructor Bio - http://proactiveshooters.com/about-us/

  21. #21
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    Any time I'ver bought from a dealer I always had to produce two forms of ID.
    One with a picture ID and another with a address.

    Folks - this discussion is hurting my eyes! Where is cite to authority? Come on, this is OCDO not some anti-gunners' kitchen klatche! All of this stuff is easily googleable.

    Not every discussion is going to be strictly open carry, if it were it would made for a boring board. It is good info being passed on about GM so other folks here don't spend there money in a place that treats fellow gun owners like crap. As far as the discussion hurting your eyes, look away.

  22. #22
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    I just used my driver's license and CHP at GM last weekend to buy a Ruger 10/22. Unfortunately, I had a change of address card for my license since they recently changed our zip code.

    They were being sticklers with the guy behind me beside his zip codes didn't match. He was able to go to the front and have they reprint his hunting/fishing license.

  23. #23
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    GLENGLOCKER wrote:
    Any time I'ver bought from a dealer I always had to produce two forms of ID.
    One with a picture ID and another with a address.

    Folks - this discussion is hurting my eyes! Where is cite to authority? Come on, this is OCDO not some anti-gunners' kitchen klatche! All of this stuff is easily googleable.

    Not every discussion is going to be strictly open carry, if it were it would made for a boring board. It is good info being passed on about GM so other folks here don't spend there money in a place that treats fellow gun owners like crap. As far as the discussion hurting your eyes, look away.
    Huh? You miss the point - a lot of banter here could have been better directed had someone looked at the code - if Gander Mountain is not following the code, then folks need to direct the issue to their management and forcde them to comply.

  24. #24
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    Mike wrote:
    GLENGLOCKER wrote:
    Any time I'ver bought from a dealer I always had to produce two forms of ID.
    One with a picture ID and another with a address.

    Folks - this discussion is hurting my eyes! Where is cite to authority? Come on, this is OCDO not some anti-gunners' kitchen klatche! All of this stuff is easily googleable.

    Not every discussion is going to be strictly open carry, if it were it would made for a boring board. It is good info being passed on about GM so other folks here don't spend there money in a place that treats fellow gun owners like crap. As far as the discussion hurting your eyes, look away.
    Huh? You miss the point - a lot of banter here could have been better directed had someone looked at the code - if Gander Mountain is not following the code, then folks need to direct the issue to their management and forcde them to comply.
    That would be the best way to handle it. How many times have we heard people talk about crappy customer service but they don't do anything about it.

  25. #25
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    GLENGLOCKER wrote:
    Mike wrote:
    if Gander Mountain is not following the code, then folks need to direct the issue to their management and forcde them to comply.
    That would be the best way to handle it. How many times have we heard people talk about crappy customer service but they don't do anything about it.
    Right - it's not that the discussion was not on open carry per se - it's just that time is awasting if folks don't help do the research and start the process rolling - I'd love to lay into them if they are making the rediculous Virginia secondary ID requirements even more onerous - the VAC code entry barring collection of info beyond what is in the code provides a good hook here.

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