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Thread: 1st leo oc encounter

  1. #1
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    On Saturday 21 June

    I was just starting up Farmington canyon on my ATV, oc'n,when at the bottom of the road I saw a UT Department of Natural Resources officer truck and trailer.

    I thought to my self this might be interesting.

    So just after the first couple switch backs I see these 2 guys on yellow ATV's, I pass the first one and the second one stops and starts to get off, then I notice it's the Wildlife officers. So I stop turn off the ATV and this is how it went.

    officer- Hey how's it going

    me- good

    officer- were just stopping people and checking registration and stuff

    me- oh ok cool

    officer- I see your stickers on the front are good. Do you have them on the back?

    me- yes sirI do

    so he steps around the back of my ATV an looks, and thats when he notices my firearm.

    officer- I see that you are carrying a firearm today

    me- yes sir

    officer- is it loaded?

    me- yes sir it is

    officer- (:shock:<--- the look on his face) do you have a concealed firearms permit?

    me- yes sir I do

    officer- well you cant do that

    me- sir, the UT AG has clearly explained this that it is ok, during a firearms amendmentearlier this year

    officer- well... we just had some training on this,I'm pretty sure you can't, but let me double check and ask, just don't touch your firearm.

    me- ok sir, hey can I move off the middle of the road?

    officer- yeah ok

    sometime during the conversation the other officer pulled up behind me, he never really became a part of this stop, he just sat there. So I moved and so did the 1st officer. So he gets on the radio, I really didn't hear what was said but seemed like he tried to get a hold of a few people.

    so after maybe 5-10 min, he comes back

    officer-can i see your conceal carry card andlicence

    me- sure

    I step off the ATV keeping my strong side to him, more for my safety. I hand him the 2 ID's and the UT gun law pamphlet we have on here

    me- here is where I get most of my information and law references your welcome to keep that for your reference, it also list websites

    officer- uh ok.. hey by loaded do you mean just the magazine in, or one in the chamber

    me- there is one in the chamber sir

    officer- oh well hold on a second (goes back to his atv)

    AsI see him looking atmystuff he gets a phone call, I hear him say "really? oh I didn't know that". he gets off his phone and comes back.

    officer- well.. my boss says you can't do that, but some one I just talked to on the phone (while he points to SLC) says you can. I wasn't aware of this and I'm not quite sure what to do since I got two different answers. So I'm not going to write you a ticket and I'mgoing to check into this and see. Here is your stuff back and have a good day.



    me- ok you too, hey whats your name?

    officer- chris

    me- ok (and shake his hand)

    The other officer pulls up on his atv and says somethingabout how nice it was outside, I said I was a nice dayout too, then he goes and pulls over another ATV.

    It was kinda funny how he got weirded out when I said it was loaded and almost seemed to forget what he should do, but he was really nice and professional. I just kept a good composure and was nice too so there wouldn't be anything bad happening.

    The rest of the day was good with hours of riding, I stopped and talked to a few people. One person noticed I was the guy that was stopped by the officers, we talked for quite awhile and I gave him the UT gun laws pamphlet, so he may comeby here.

    I would like to mail a letter to the guys boss or chief, but don't know where to mail it to.

  2. #2
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    too bad it didn't go more like this:
    Officer - I see you have a gun

    You - Yep

    Officer - What type

    You - Its a _____

    Officer - Cool, do you like it

    You - oh yeah, shoots great

    Officer - maybe if you are in town on my day off we can go shooting

    You - sounds good

    Officer - have a nice day
    But atleast you were not hassled too bad.



  3. #3
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    lol, thats how most conversations go when I talk to normal people

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    I think that is the perfect way for an officer to deal with someone OC'ing when they aren't sure about the law. He obviously never feared for his safety, so no disarming was necessary, and he was very professional.



    The cops that are able to make rational decisions stick out big time, and he deserves a nice letter or two for his file.

  5. #5
    Regular Member thx997303's Avatar
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    Yeah, that was a good one, but I think his boss needs some edumification.

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    Not bad. I'd give hima complimentary letter for politeness while strongly urging the department to improve training.

    I can't criticize the OP's handling of the encounter. We each have to make our own decisions how to handle the exact officer in front of us at that exact point in our day. I think most already know what I'm going to say I would have done. I'll present it here as an alternative.

    Officer: "...I'm pretty sure you can't, butlet me double-check and ask. Just don't touch your firearm."

    Citizen: "I'm sorry, Officer. I don't consent to waiting. In that I've met the compliance requirements for which I was stopped, and you have no reasonable, particularized suspicion, I should be free to leave."

    Officer: "Well, you're not. Wait right there."

    Citizen: "Yes, sir."

    Later, one hears Citizen's keyboard clacking out the complaint for unlawful detention.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Citizen wrote:
    Not bad. I'd give hima complimentary letter for politeness while strongly urging the department to improve training.

    I can't criticize the OP's handling of the encounter. We each have to make our own decisions how to handle the exact officer in front of us at that exact point in our day. I think most already know what I'm going to say I would have done. I'll present it here as an alternative.
    yeah I want to write him a good letter, it wasn't a bad experience at all and I expected him to check my conceal carry card since I stated it was loaded.

    I've always gone over in my head how I would react in such a situation, about how i'm not breaking any law and not to get detained, but I just couldn't get over the subtle reaction he got when I said it was loaded, so it kinda thew me off too. Also I don't think he could get over when I said it was loaded.

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    usSiR wrote:
    SNIP I expected him to check my conceal carry card since I stated it was loaded.
    Which suggests another alternative reply:

    Offc: "Its not loaded is it?"

    Me: "I won't be answering any questions in the absence of my attorney."

    Offc: "I'll need to check it then to see if its unloadedin compliance with the law. Don't move while I remove it from your holster."

    Me: "I won't resist. I don't consent. Without particularized suspicion that it is loaded, what is your basis for this search?"


    Edited to add: Actually, I takethat back. I wouldn't ask about the particularized suspicion. I'd just refuse consent, but let him take it. Then add the unlawful seizure to the complaint.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  9. #9
    Regular Member thx997303's Avatar
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    See, I don't think he was looking for a lawsuit, or to make money.

    I think to look for that would be misguided and harmful to our cause.

    Nobody should ever push to have his rights violated, that's just stupid.

    Good job usSir.

    ETA: It's Reasonable ARTICULABLE Suspicion, What is this Particulized suspicion?

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    thx997303 wrote:
    SNIP See, I don't think he was looking for a lawsuit, or to make money.
    I don't think he was, either. I was offering alternatives for those who might want to stand harder on their rights. Using myself as the example.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    thx997303 wrote:
    ETA: It's Reasonable ARTICULABLE Suspicion, What is this Particulized suspicion?
    Hunt up your 4th Amendment court opinions. You'll find the word particularized occuring, too.

    I don't immediately recall; but I imagine it will be in cases where police were using a generalized reason for a search or seizure and the court wasn't having any of it.

    Example:

    Cop: "As a police officer I know many drug dealers wear red shirts, so we stopped him. When we questioned him he became nervous. So we asked if we could search him. He consented. We found several servings of drugs and lotsa cash."

    Appellate Court: "Lotsa people who aren't drug dealers wear red shirts. A red shirt is not, alone, enough to justify the stop. Conviction overturned."

    Oh, hell. I'm not very bright this evening. See the Fourth Amendment for the first occurrence of theconcept particular:


    The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized. (emphasis added)
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    thx997303 wrote:
    SNIP It's Reasonable ARTICULABLE Suspicion, What is this Particulized suspicion?
    Here is one. Definitely read the case, or at least the whole paragraph in the case. It is not the holding in the case. I'm presenting it here as a thread to follow to answer the question, not to answer the question.

    From US Supreme Court inOrnelas vs US quoting itself from an earlier case:

    ...We have described reasonable suspicion simply as "a particularized and objective basis" for suspecting the person stopped of criminal activity, United States v. Cortez, 449 U.S. 411, http://tinyurl.com/3luj5u
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  13. #13
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    I usually don't like to push my rights and decline to most of their questions, most of the time I'll comply with what they ask, just as long as its not something ridiculous, like wanting to search my vehicle/ATV just because they think they want to I'll make them get a warrant for that if they want to. I've found most of the time if you say no or I have the right not to or I'm not doing anything wrong, seems to irritate them and they might try and come up with some bogus thing to cite you with and waste more of your time to deal with it later.

    Since my firearm was in plain view for all to see, and I got a few looks while up there, I would be ok with showing him my ID's to prove that I am complying within the law, doing nothing wrong, and just have it for my own personal protection. Besides he was real nice and polite so I was going to comply with his simple requests.

    I was almost expecting him to disarm me, and was kinda surprised he did not. I suspect by the way I acted and treated him maybe/hopefully he felt I was really no threat.

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    usSiR wrote:
    SNIP I usually don't like to push my rights and decline to most of their questions, most of the time I'll comply with what they ask, just as long as its not something ridiculous...
    I understand.

    The discussion has brought out an interesting point of law. The particularized element of suspicion.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Citizen wrote:
    usSiR wrote:
    SNIP I usually don't like to push my rights and decline to most of their questions, most of the time I'll comply with what they ask, just as long as its not something ridiculous...
    I understand.

    The discussion has brought out an interesting point of law. The particularized element of suspicion.
    yeah....

    I hate suspicion sometimes, but you hear and read about some stops that are made and nothing really warrants a search but the LEO's ask any way and then find lots of drugs or something, which is cool by me.

    But I'll never consent to a search of my vehicle under their "suspicion" because I know I've done nothing wrong, I dont know... I think I just want to waste their time if they really want to get a warrant just to find nothing

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    usSiR wrote:
    SNIP I dont know... I think I just want to waste their time if they really want to to get a warrant just to find nothing

    I understand.

    We each have to decide how we want to deal with any given police encounter "based on the totality of the circumstances" (to borrow a phrase from the courts.)

    Realize that if everyday citizens regularly stood fast on theirrights down to the last comma, police would be forced to become much more professional, and government would have to give a lot more respect to thegoverned.

    Me? I want an extremely professional police department who is so familiar with the policiesthat apply to their job (read that to mean the law), that even the lowliest rookie can tell when another copomits so much as a comma. There isabsolutely nothing wrongwith expectingfamiliarity with and adherence tothe policies that go with a job. Any job.Its a fundamental requirementof competence. To the degree that a cop doesn't know the law, he is unable to apply it, and is thus to that degree incompetent.

    Andpolicing is one job where we really should requireit.

    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  17. #17
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    usSiR wrote:
    On Saturday 21 June

    I was just starting up Farmington canyon on my ATV, oc'n,when at the bottom of the road I saw a UT Department of Natural Resources officer truck and trailer.

    I thought to my self this might be interesting.

    So just after the first couple switch backs I see these 2 guys on yellow ATV's, I pass the first one and the second one stops and starts to get off, then I notice it's the Wildlife officers. So I stop turn off the ATV and this is how it went.

    officer- Hey how's it going

    me- good

    officer- were just stopping people and checking registration and stuff

    me- oh ok cool

    officer- I see your stickers on the front are good. Do you have them on the back?

    me- yes sirI do

    so he steps around the back of my ATV an looks, and thats when he notices my firearm.

    officer- I see that you are carrying a firearm today

    me- yes sir

    officer- is it loaded?

    me- yes sir it is

    officer- (:shock:<--- the look on his face) do you have a concealed firearms permit?

    me- yes sir I do

    officer- well you cant do that

    me- sir, the UT AG has clearly explained this that it is ok, during a firearms amendmentearlier this year

    officer- well... we just had some training on this,I'm pretty sure you can't, but let me double check and ask, just don't touch your firearm.

    me- ok sir, hey can I move off the middle of the road?

    officer- yeah ok

    sometime during the conversation the other officer pulled up behind me, he never really became a part of this stop, he just sat there. So I moved and so did the 1st officer. So he gets on the radio, I really didn't hear what was said but seemed like he tried to get a hold of a few people.

    so after maybe 5-10 min, he comes back

    officer-can i see your conceal carry card andlicence

    me- sure

    I step off the ATV keeping my strong side to him, more for my safety. I hand him the 2 ID's and the UT gun law pamphlet we have on here

    me- here is where I get most of my information and law references your welcome to keep that for your reference, it also list websites

    officer- uh ok.. hey by loaded do you mean just the magazine in, or one in the chamber

    me- there is one in the chamber sir

    officer- oh well hold on a second (goes back to his atv)

    AsI see him looking atmystuff he gets a phone call, I hear him say "really? oh I didn't know that". he gets off his phone and comes back.

    officer- well.. my boss says you can't do that, but some one I just talked to on the phone (while he points to SLC) says you can. I wasn't aware of this and I'm not quite sure what to do since I got two different answers. So I'm not going to write you a ticket and I'mgoing to check into this and see. Here is your stuff back and have a good day.



    me- ok you too, hey whats your name?

    officer- chris

    me- ok (and shake his hand)

    The other officer pulls up on his atv and says somethingabout how nice it was outside, I said I was a nice dayout too, then he goes and pulls over another ATV.

    It was kinda funny how he got weirded out when I said it was loaded and almost seemed to forget what he should do, but he was really nice and professional. I just kept a good composure and was nice too so there wouldn't be anything bad happening.

    The rest of the day was good with hours of riding, I stopped and talked to a few people. One person noticed I was the guy that was stopped by the officers, we talked for quite awhile and I gave him the UT gun laws pamphlet, so he may comeby here.

    I would like to mail a letter to the guys boss or chief, but don't know where to mail it to.
    I, personally, believe this was a very reasonable "Meet&Greet" between the two of you. He didn't hassle you, he just wanted to make sure that he was handling the situation. I believe he treated you well and with respect based on the info that you shared. I hoped that we had Nice encounters like that here in WVC.

    A letter would be nice for his file.



    TJ

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    UTOC-45-44 wrote:
    usSiR wrote:
    SNIP On Saturday 21 June
    SNIP I, personally, believe this was a very reasonable "Meet&Greet"...
    There you go making me look like a radical again. :P
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  19. #19
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    huh,

    Main Entryar·tic·u·lar·izePronunciation: \pə(r)-ˈti-k(yə-)lə-ˌrīz also pär-\ Function:verb Inflected Form(s)ar·tic·u·lar·ized; par·tic·u·lar·iz·ingDate:1593 transitive verb :to state in detail :specify intransitive verb :to go into details


    Averb
    1articulate, enunciate, vocalize, vocalise

    express or state clearly

    Category Tree:express; verbalize; verbalise; utter; give tongue tostate; say; tellarticulate, enunciate, vocalize, vocalise
    2pronounce, articulate, enounce, sound out, enunciate, say

    speak, pronounce, or utter in a certain way; "She pronounces French words in a funny way"; "I cannot say `zip wire'"; "Can the child sound out this complicated word?"



    3give voice, formulate, word, phrase, articulate

    put into words or an expression; "He formulated his concerns to the board of trustees"
    Interesting.

    According to these definitions, you were misusing the word particulized. Gramaticaly anyway, but it kinda fits.

    Huh, I hated english in High school.


  20. #20
    Regular Member thx997303's Avatar
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    particular Anoun
    1particular, specific

    a fact about some part (as opposed to general); "he always reasons from the particular to the general"

    Category Tree:psychological featurecognition; knowledge; noesisinformationfactparticular, specific
    2detail, particular, item

    a small part that can be considered separately from the whole; "it was perfect in all details"
    I guess the proper word would have been particular.

    But no legal argument.

  21. #21
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    Citizen wrote:
    UTOC-45-44 wrote:
    usSiR wrote:
    SNIP On Saturday 21 June
    SNIP I, personally, believe this was a very reasonable "Meet&Greet"...
    There you go making me look like a radical again. :P
    LoL! True!

    Yeah, I think you had a very good first LEO encounter. Not bad at all. Hope we start having more like this.
    Charles A. Hall, self-proclaimed Lone Eagle || Carry: Kahr CW40
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    You handled that perfectly!! Way to go! And now we have another officer that is properly aware of the law with no hard feelings or incidents.

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    usSiR wrote:
    [...] I hand him the 2 ID's and the UT gun law pamphlet we have on here [...]
    I must be blind, but I can't find the pamphlet you're referring to!

    Can we put these downloadables somewhere easier to find (I still can't find 'em!), maybe "stickey" them so they're always at the top of the discussions?

    - www.JoeLevi.com

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    joelevi wrote:
    usSiR wrote:
    [...] I hand him the 2 ID's and the UT gun law pamphlet we have on here [...]
    I must be blind, but I can't find the pamphlet you're referring to!

    Can we put these downloadables somewhere easier to find (I still can't find 'em!), maybe "stickey" them so they're always at the top of the discussions?

    - http://www.JoeLevi.com
    Here

    http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum52/11475.html

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    jaredbelch wrote:
    joelevi wrote:
    usSiR wrote:
    [...] I hand him the 2 ID's and the UT gun law pamphlet we have on here [...]
    I must be blind, but I can't find the pamphlet you're referring to!

    Can we put these downloadables somewhere easier to find (I still can't find 'em!), maybe "stickey" them so they're always at the top of the discussions?

    - http://www.JoeLevi.com
    Here

    http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum52/11475.html
    Awesome! Thanks JaredBelch!

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