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Thread: How would you react this encounter

  1. #1
    Regular Member WARCHILD's Avatar
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    I would like to pose a scenario to the forum and get your responses. I will give the story with an alternate ending and you respond to what you would do for each. Please don’t read anything into it or out of it. ]

    I believe this could happen to any of us and I am curious to see how you would respond.
    A man is shopping in a store, sees an LEO approaching him; he turns to face the LEO………

    LEO: ]Keep your hands away from your gun and get on the floor.
    MAN: Is there a problem?
    LEO: ]Get down on the floor, face down, hands out to your side, NOW.
    MAN: ]What is the problem officer, I’ve done nothing wrong.
    LEO: Placing his hand on his gun, the LEO once again orders the man to the floor.
    MAN: Officer, I am on private property and have permission to be here. State your business or leave mealone.
    LEO:Draws his gun and again orders the man to the floor for the last time.
    MAN:The man complies and gets on the floor.
    LEO:The officer approaches and handcuffs the man, takes his gun and his wallet.
    Seeing the man has a permit to carry, the officer asks the man why he would take the chance of an encounter like this and just conceal his gun. I could arrest you for obstruction of an investigationand resisting arrest. When an officer tells you to do something, do it, don’t ask questions and we will work things out after I figure out what’s going on. The next time, do as you’re told and it won’t have to come to this. The officer gives the man back his gun and his wallet and tells the man to be on his way.

    Alternate Ending;
    LEO: Does place the man under arrest for obstructing an investigation and resisting arrest and takes him to jail.


    What would your actions be, i.e.

    Forget about it

    File a complaint with his department

    File a lawsuit against his department

    ??????


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    WARCHILD wrote:

    File a complaint with his department

    File a lawsuit against his department




    There's my two suggestions.

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    How do I know he's a cop?
    It's easy to say from the keyboard, but I wanna ask him for ID.
    I have personally known 1 nitwit that impersonated LEO. He got busted for it, but the point is, just cause they have a blue uni and bark orders doesn't mean they're the real deal.

    Better answer, lawyer up. Tell him he gets 50% of the settlement. That'll get him working.

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    Administrator John Pierce's Avatar
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    The answer to almost any of these questions is:

    1) Comply with the officers orders (as over the top as they appear to be)

    2) Get the names and badge numbers of all officers on the scene

    3) Get names, addresses, phone numbers and statements from all witnesses present

    4) File an official complaint

    5) File suit if necessary

    Following this script will insure several important outcomes.

    1) You will not be arrested

    2) All of the officers in that city and region will almost certainly receive a crash course in the gun laws of their state

    3) Future open carriers will find the way a little bit easier because of the trail you have blazed.



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    Regular Member WARCHILD's Avatar
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    jpierce wrote:
    The answer to almost any of these questions is:

    1) Comply with the officers orders (as over the top as they appear to be)

    2) Get the names and badge numbers of all officers on the scene

    3) Get names, addresses, phone numbers and statements from all witnesses present

    4) File an official complaint

    5) File suit if necessary

    Following this script will insure several important outcomes.

    1) You will not be arrested

    2) All of the officers in that city and region will almost certainly receive a crash course in the gun laws of their state

    3) Future open carriers will find the way a little bit easier because of the trail you have blazed.

    That was my train of thought, except I forgot the obvious CYA--- your #3--witnesses--duh

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    Citizen writing a concurring opinion.

    Iconcurr withJPierce.I would like to add a few things.

    YOUR #1 PRIORITY IS TOPRESERVETOYOURSELF THE STRONGEST LEGAL POSITION AND THE GREATEST CREDIBILITY POSSIBLE.

    This does not mean resisting, arguing, etc, because you think your rights are being violated.You can fight all that afterwards when you can turn the power of the state on the officer(s).

    I would add saying politely and very early in the encounter while complying with orders:

    1. Officer, I do not consent to this encounter.

    2. I do not consent to any searches or seizures.

    3. Officer, I won't be answering questions in the absence of my attorney.

    These have the benefit of asserting your rights whichprotects your legalposition.

    Afterwards, following JPierce's advice on getting officer names, witness names, and so forth, immediately file a Freedom of Information aka Open Government aka Sunshine Law request for all police records including the 911 call and the dispatch messages to the officer. You need to know what information the officer was given before you can decide whether he was acting legally.

    I can go on at length, but will not for space and time.

    Separately, Idon't care forhypothetical scenario posts. They have the liability of being only as realistic as the poster's imagination and often omit critical details whichcan then be squabbled over. If one has a question about some tactic or aspect of a police encounter, please just ask. Also, and this only applies to an occasional poster the likes of which we haven't seen for a while, I find dis-tasteful someone posing scenarios just to see what others are thinking or for personal entertainment--just to have something to yak about.

    Please just ask if you have a question.



    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Regular Member WARCHILD's Avatar
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    Citizen: The scenario was my question. It wasn't for my enjoyment or to start needless scenarion conversation. I understand your point and I agree. I try to have my reactions ready in my head for any such encounter. As with Jpierce, I hadn't thought of witness statements. Also with your #1 and #2. Both good points I now know to keep in my responses. I don't consider myself a VERY knowledgeable person but I would rather overt a problem than react after. The more I can train myself for such any type of encounter, the more familiar I will be to react and respond to same. I thank you for your contribution.

    Jerry

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    To reply with a question. 1. Why is an officer of the law so jumpy as to approach a citizen in that manner? 2. Why should any citizen, not breaking any law, be told to lay on the groundlike they are lower than you? 3. If a cop is that scared of his fellow citizens. He needs to find another line of work. 4. What would you do if somebody told you to lay on the floor/ground. You would say I'm a "police officer"as if that should protect you from such a command. But to answer your question. Because we have the kind of men and women doing the kind of work that exceeds there ability to except the risk involved, without degrading there fellow citizens (treating everyone as a criminal before they have done wrong). Why should any citizen that has not done any wrong be told to get on the ground?Answer, file a complaint.

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    Regular Member WARCHILD's Avatar
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    Mod: If this thread gets out of hand and becomes a needless problem, please delete it. I guess I went about it the wrong way.

    Thanks, Jerry

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    Comply

  11. #11
    Administrator John Pierce's Avatar
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    Warchild,

    I think this is a valuable thread. A lot of members have this very same question.


    John


    WARCHILD wrote:
    Mod: If this thread gets out of hand and becomes a needless problem, please delete it. I guess I went about it the wrong way.

    Thanks, Jerry

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    Regular Member WARCHILD's Avatar
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    John: Ok, I leave it up to you. I just didn't want to tie up the thread with a lot of "what if" follow up scenarios as was suggested.

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    WARCHILD wrote:
    Citizen: The scenario was my question. It wasn't for my enjoyment or to start needless scenarion conversation. I understand your point and I agree. I try to have my reactions ready in my head for any such encounter. As with Jpierce, I hadn't thought of witness statements. Also with your #1 and #2. Both good points I now know to keep in my responses. I don't consider myself a VERY knowledgeable person but I would rather overt a problem than react after. The more I can train myself for such any type of encounter, the more familiar I will be to react and respond to same. I thank you for your contribution.

    Jerry
    Great viewpoint.

    I'll add a few more points. Anyencounter that doesn't become an arrest will be comparatively short. The real work--and I mean serious pain-in-the-butt work--will come afterwards. If one does not already know the 4th Amendment case law cold it will take LOTS of reading and effort to research it.

    If you don't already know the 4th Amendment case law you will not be able to identify what the officer did wrong from a legal perspective. You may miss things. In a complaint you will be turning the forces of the law (the officer's own department) on the officer. The points of legality in your complaint will be your most powerful. You need to know thecase law on the 4th Amendment. Winging it, getting it wrong, mis-applying it in a complaint will result in you beingviewedas an idiot by the recipients of your compalint.

    If you don't already know the 4A case law, you have to do your research after the incident. Or, worse, you have to ask thisforum for advice. I considerasking the forum afterwardsworse because police--more than one agency--monitor this forum. Word will get back to the department very quickly that you are considering a complaint. Want to have your FOIA request refused, and not necessarily legally? Just let police get the idea you might complain. We've seen this happen. I very strongly recommend against posting about a negative encounter before you havethe police records from the FOIA request.

    So, to make the aftermath easier and faster, become familiar with the 4A case law before it happens. This has the added benefit of you knowing what you can doto preserve your legal standing and rights during the encounter.

    And, when you see an officer approaching, activate the voice-recorder.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    murphy2 wrote:
    SNIP 2. Why should any citizen, not breaking any law, be told to lay on the groundlike they are lower than you?
    The police officer may very well have legal authority to make a felony stop. It will depend almost entirely on what information he was given by the 911 dispatcher or witnesses he talked to just before approaching you. In certaincircumstances it will have nothing whatsoever to do with your actual innocence at the moment he initiates the stop. Someone may have called 911 to falsely report you were waving a gun or made a verbal threat to use the gun.

    The OCer will not know why he is being approached/encountered/detained. Because police can sometimes lie, even legally (so-called permissible deception), and sometimes give erroneous information, perhaps even honestly erroneous, you can't fully trust the reason for the stop that the officer gives you. I have had police give me false information as the reason for the stop--twice!

    It doesn't hurt to ask why you are being stopped.But I know of no law that requires police to tell you why you've been stopped. Your state laws may vary.

    So,how does this affectyour tactics? Comply, but refuse consent politely.

    If you live in VA you must comply, you may not physically resist even anunlawful detention. (See Commonwealth vs Hill.Case #012526at the VA Court of Appealswebsite. Itsin one of the last paragraphs.) Not that you would want to, even if it was legal.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  15. #15
    Regular Member WARCHILD's Avatar
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    Citizen: Thanks again. These are the kind of answers I was looking for. I need to learn more about this subject but I tend to ask in the wrong way sometimes.

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    Going to concur with John....

    If an officer is ordering you to the ground..... please don't try and make it conditional on his telling you why first!!! The use of force continuum is being used here. Officer Presencethen Voice.

    Next comes OC Spray orTaser. Beyond that will be impact weapons or hands on. But since you are armed... This might get skipped.

    There may be a time that someone that happens to beOCing is actually breaking a lawhe is simply unaware of or someone could have reported him ascommitting aserious criminal act.

    You can ask "why?" but the officer is not going to say.... "Because you just robbed a bank!" And what if he does say... "Because you are carrying a gun in public!" but he does not know it is legal. Are you really willing to get hurt over it and maybe killed just to resist his order?

    As John said.... immediately comply, get names, and file your paperwork for a complaint and/or civil suit.

    Your resistance is only going to make things worse for everyone involved. You get hurt and the officer gets sued.

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    WARCHILD wrote:
    Citizen: Thanks again. These are the kind of answers I was looking for. I need to learn more about this subject but I tend to ask in the wrong way sometimes.
    You're welcome.

    There are really only a very fewbasics you need to know for the encounter itself. They all have to do with exercising your 4th, 5th, and 6th Amendment rights. Not defending them by physically resisting, just exercisingthemverbally. Of course, there are more than just the basics that you can use. But the basics are a must-know.

    Let me make the disclaimer now: I am not a lawyer.

    Basically, the logic flow goes something like this:

    1. During a police encounter, you are in legal jeopardy. YOUR #1 PRIORITY IS TOPRESERVETOYOURSELF THE STRONGEST LEGAL POSITION AND THE GREATEST CREDIBILITY POSSIBLE.

    2. You can go a very long ways towards accomplishing the above by politely saying, "Officer I understand you are just doing your job, and:

    • I do not consent to this encounter."
    • I do not consent to any searches or seizures."
    • I have nothing to say in the absence of my attorney."

    Repeat as necessary. Specify refusals. For example, if he demandsor even just asks for your gun,you might say, "Ido not consent to weapon seizure, however I will not resist."
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Citizen wrote:
    WARCHILD wrote:
    Citizen: Thanks again. These are the kind of answers I was looking for. I need to learn more about this subject but I tend to ask in the wrong way sometimes.
    You're welcome.

    There are really only a very fewbasics you need to know for the encounter itself. They all have to do with exercising your 4th, 5th, and 6th Amendment rights. Not defending them by physically resisting, just exercisingthemverbally. Of course, there are more than just the basics that you can use. But the basics are a must-know.

    Let me make the disclaimer now: I am not a lawyer.

    Basically, the logic flow goes something like this:

    1. During a police encounter, you are in legal jeopardy. YOUR #1 PRIORITY IS TOPRESERVETOYOURSELF THE STRONGEST LEGAL POSITION AND THE GREATEST CREDIBILITY POSSIBLE.

    2. You can go a very long ways towards accomplishing the above by politely saying, "Officer I understand you are just doing your job, and:

    • I do not consent to this encounter."
    • I do not consent to any searches or seizures."
    • I have nothing to say in the absence of my attorney."
    Repeat as necessary. Specify refusals. For example, if he demandsor even just asks for your gun,you might say, "Ido not consent to weapon seizure, however I will not resist."
    while I agree with what both John and citizen say, I would like to add one thing. If Iwere asked to surrendermy gun AFTER I was treated in such a manner, I would inform the officer that HE could remove it from my holster.

    while I can't suggest that everyone do this, and everyones officers may be a little different, if he is already this agitated, I personally wouldn't want to risk the possibility that he "believed" that I was going after my weapon in an aggresive manner.

    Some of ya'll may believe this to be LEO bashing, and I am sorry if you feel that way, but the simple fact of the matter is If you were reaching for your weapon and he shot you, then that's it. end of story. If you politely ask if he will remove the weapon, it can always be explained in court.

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    I would have gotten on the ground, asked if he thought I committed a crime, then gone through the non-consent language, and shut up completely after that.

    If that officer put his hands on me in any way, there would be a 42 USC 1983 lawsuit + IA complaint in his near future, REGARDLESS of the circumstances. Screw the FOIA requests. I'll DEMAND the 911 tapes in discovery.

    Taking my wallet and gun is an unreasonable search + seizure. We'll see about his rational for seizing me later.

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    LEO 229 wrote:
    ....but he does not know it is legal....
    ....Your resistance is only going to make things worse for everyone involved. You get hurt and the officer gets sued.

    As I have said a thousand times before,every LEO should make it a top priority to learn the laws that they should be enforcing. A citizen can't plead ignorance of the law, so why should an LEO ?



    If the LEO were to get sued, at least the experience would teach him a valuable lesson. ( note: I am in no way suggesting resistance, please don't take this post as such. I am merely suggesting that "LEO didn't know" is not a justifiable excuse, IMO)

  21. #21
    Campaign Veteran deepdiver's Avatar
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    I think John pretty much covered what I would do.
    Bob Owens @ Bearing Arms (paraphrased): "These people aren't against violence; they're very much in favor of violence. They're against armed resistance."

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    Friday, I received a certified letter in the mail from the 911 director stating that the tapes had been accidentally destroyed.

    I think a
    motion for sanctions would have been appropriate...Note to self...go demand discovery tapes IN PERSON.

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    unreconstructed1 wrote:
    LEO 229 wrote:
    ....but he does not know it is legal....
    ....Your resistance is only going to make things worse for everyone involved. You get hurt and the officer gets sued.

    As I have said a thousand times before,every LEO should make it a top priority to learn the laws that they should be enforcing. A citizen can't plead ignorance of the law, so why should an LEO ?



    If the LEO were to get sued, at least the experience would teach him a valuable lesson. ( note: I am in no way suggesting resistance, please don't take this post as such. I am merely suggesting that "LEO didn't know" is not a justifiable excuse, IMO)
    Yes, Yes..... we all know.. But the fact remains that some cops do actually do this so it fits the situation as given.

    Do not get bent all out of shape. This is a scenario!!!

  24. #24
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    Citizen wrote:
    .....Separately, Idon't care forhypothetical scenario posts. They have the liability of being only as realistic as the poster's imagination and often omit critical details whichcan then be squabbled over. If one has a question about some tactic or aspect of a police encounter, please just ask. Also, and this only applies to an occasional poster the likes of which we haven't seen for a while, I find dis-tasteful someone posing scenarios just to see what others are thinking or for personal entertainment--just to have something to yak about.

    Please just ask if you have a question.


    Not so hypothetical. This scenario isvery similar to one of Danbus' encounters in downtown Norfolk (looong thread in the Virginia forum). The only difference is that he was sitting outside rather than browsing in a store.
    Guns don't kill people. Drivers on cell phones do.

  25. #25
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    On the floor? From what I remember reading I don't think that happened. He just had guns thrust in his face, handcuffed and disarmed. That's more than enough.

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