How would you react this encounter

unreconstructed1 · Jun 22, 2008

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LEO 229 wrote:

....but he does not know it is legal....

....Your resistance is only going to make things worse for everyone involved. You get hurt and the officer gets sued.

As I have said a thousand times before,every LEO should make it a top priority to learn the laws that they should be enforcing. A citizen can't plead ignorance of the law, so why should an LEO ?

If the LEO were to get sued, at least the experience would teach him a valuable lesson. ( note: I am in no way suggesting resistance, please don't take this post as such. I am merely suggesting that "LEO didn't know" is not a justifiable excuse, IMO)

deepdiver · Jun 22, 2008

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I think John pretty much covered what I would do.

Sheriff · Jun 23, 2008

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codename_47 wrote:

I'll DEMAND the 911 tapes in discovery.

Good Luck! I issued a subpoena for some 911 tapes back in 1997. The tapes would have VERY detrimental to any defense claim a couple of cops thought they had.The assistant director of 911 promised them to me by a certain date. When that date had passed I called her back. She said a balcony collapse at UVA had caused a slight delay and she would have them to me by Friday. On Friday, I received a certified letter in the mail from the 911 director stating that the tapes had been accidentally destroyed.

Had the cases these tapes were going to be used in gone to court, we had a dispatcher who would have testified he was assigned to cut them into pieces no longer than 1" each.

It is my opinion these tapes were destroyed to protect the two officers from an internal affairs investigation and termination.

codename_47 · Jun 23, 2008

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Friday, I received a certified letter in the mail from the 911 director stating that the tapes had been accidentally destroyed.

I think a motion for sanctions would have been appropriate...Note to self...go demand discovery tapes IN PERSON.

Sheriff · Jun 23, 2008

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codename_47 wrote:

I think a motion for sanctions would have been appropriate...Note to self...go demand discovery tapes IN PERSON.

We were more interested in presenting our facts in front of a jury, with the media sitting on the front bench in the courtroom taking notes for the headlines. Not one person alive on the face of the earth believed the tapeshad beenaccidentally destroyed. And this was before an investigation discovered the dispatcher who was assigned to cut the tapes into pices no longer than 1".

Keep in mind though, the tapes being destroyed was just the tip of the iceberg. These cases settled out of court because of theamount of dirty laundry sitting there just waiting to be hung out in front of a jury and the public. It would have rocked this town if the public could have seen the perjury and corruption firsthand.Let's just say this.... after the settlement the sergeant on duty at the time all of these false arrest chargesstarted was terminated. He had the chance to lasso in all his rookies and fix things. But he didn't and brought a lot of embarrassment upon the department. (One of the charges was taking a perfectly legal shotgun, measuring it wrong, and placing a felony charge for "sawed off shotgun". This fake criminal charge was created and placed against the individual after the original false arrestcharge had blown upin their faces. Didn't take a rocket scientist to figure how they allegedly measured the shotgun wrong.)

LEO 229 · Jun 23, 2008

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unreconstructed1 wrote:

LEO 229 wrote:

....but he does not know it is legal....

Click to expand...

....Your resistance is only going to make things worse for everyone involved. You get hurt and the officer gets sued.

Click to expand...

As I have said a thousand times before,every LEO should make it a top priority to learn the laws that they should be enforcing. A citizen can't plead ignorance of the law, so why should an LEO ?

If the LEO were to get sued, at least the experience would teach him a valuable lesson. ( note: I am in no way suggesting resistance, please don't take this post as such. I am merely suggesting that "LEO didn't know" is not a justifiable excuse, IMO)

Yes, Yes..... we all know.. But the fact remains that some cops do actually do this so it fits the situation as given.

Do not get bent all out of shape. This is a scenario!!!

Eeyore · Jun 23, 2008

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Citizen wrote:

.....Separately, Idon't care forhypothetical scenario posts. They have the liability of being only as realistic as the poster's imagination and often omit critical details whichcan then be squabbled over. If one has a question about some tactic or aspect of a police encounter, please just ask. Also, and this only applies to an occasional poster the likes of which we haven't seen for a while, I find dis-tasteful someone posing scenarios just to see what others are thinking or for personal entertainment--just to have something to yak about.

Please just ask if you have a question.

Not so hypothetical. This scenario isvery similar to one of Danbus' encounters in downtown Norfolk (looong thread in the Virginia forum). The only difference is that he was sitting outside rather than browsing in a store.

Sheriff · Jun 23, 2008

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Eeyore wrote:

Not so hypothetical. This scenario isvery similar to one of Danbus' encounters in downtown Norfolk (looong thread in the Virginia forum). The only difference is that he was sitting outside rather than browsing in a store.

Are you serious? The person was made to get on the floor and was disarmed? :shock:

Was this by a cop or security guard?

Nelson_Muntz · Jun 23, 2008

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On the floor? From what I remember reading I don't think that happened. He just had guns thrust in his face, handcuffed and disarmed. That's more than enough.

LEO 229 · Jun 23, 2008

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Sheriff wrote:

Eeyore wrote:

Not so hypothetical. This scenario isvery similar to one of Danbus' encounters in downtown Norfolk (looong thread in the Virginia forum). The only difference is that he was sitting outside rather than browsing in a store.

Click to expand...

Are you serious? The person was made to get on the floor and was disarmed? :shock:

Was this by a cop or security guard?

This is the Danbus affair..... He was waiting for someone and sitting on the steps in front of a building that had a bank inside. Someone called and reported him. Based on information given the police responded with lights and sirens and located him.

They police drew down on him, cuffed him, and disarmed him while they checked out why he was there. I can only assume they believed he could have been a look out for a bank robbery in the making. My pure speculation.

They determined that he was not involved in any criminal activity and allowed him to leave.

Danbus has had a few encounters with the police and since his last court case found a new understanding and appreciation for the police and situations they encounter.

murphy2 · Jun 23, 2008

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The point that I was trying to make. It has been said in ancient Rome no citizen (of Rome) ie. (native)could be shackled unless convicted of a crime. If you have to treat every citizen as if there your subject or they don't pay your paycheck. The whole LEO thing has morphed into this. I know police officers see more than the average citizen See's on a daily routine. But to approach the people that pay your bills this way....? The TV makes it look as if every cop has to deal with explosions, RPGs and attack helicopters every day. And yes, I know what it's like to be shot at. And if a police officer is stopping a citizen for what he THINKS is against the law. He needs to brush up on the law. "Ignorance of the law is no excuse" What? This only applies to those that pay public servants paycheck? We as citizens can't say "I didn't know". Why should police be any deferent? A holstered pistol is not doing any harm.A pistol in the hand "could". But so can driving down the sidewalk. I do not hear of police stopping people because they "could" drive down the sidewalk or "could" not stop at a traffic signal. All of these "could"turn into jail time. It all comes down to lack of trustby the police. We as citizens have to trust the police are doing the right thing. But what makes the hired help any more trust worthy than yourself? Yes bing a cop is dangerous. But they know that going in. I approach people everyday that "could" attackme. Only freedom loving men would understand any of this.

unreconstructed1 · Jun 23, 2008

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LEO 229 wrote:

Yes, Yes..... we all know.. But the fact remains that some cops do actually do this so it fits the situation as given.

Do not get bent all out of shape. This is a scenario!!!

I wasn't trying to ?

LEO 229 · Jun 23, 2008

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unreconstructed1 wrote:

As I have said a thousand times before,every LEO should make it a top priority to learn the laws that they should be enforcing. A citizen can't plead ignorance of the law, so why should an LEO ?

If the LEO were to get sued, at least the experience would teach him a valuable lesson. ( note: I am in no way suggesting resistance, please don't take this post as such. I am merely suggesting that "LEO didn't know" is not a justifiable excuse, IMO)

I wasn't trying to ?

Just my impression to what you posted to a fictitious event.

No need to go on about required training and all that here. This does not help identify what a person should do to the question posed.

thorkyl · Jun 25, 2008

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As a CHL
I was helping a customer in the local store get something off the top shelf.

A short person (im 6'4" every one is short) saw the bottom of my shoulder holster
as my cover shirt lifted up.

She informed a LEO and he confronted me.

The first words out of my mouth where...

"My ID, and my Conceald Handgun Permit are in my left hip pocket, my handgun is in my shoulder holster."

His response was to ask for my ID and my permit.

That was the end of the encounter.

I do not consider it a violation of my rights for an LEO to ask for my permit. I am proud to give it to them. It says "Hey, I'm a good guy and I am on your side"

If the LEO is demanding you to get on the ground right out the gate.
Do it and tell him where your permit is as you do it so he knows up front you have one and he knows where it is and that you are fully complying with the law.

LEO 229 · Jun 25, 2008

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Agreed... It is not always necessary to prone someone out.

Knowing that so many have CC permits... If they are not doing something that makes you believe they are a criminal or gang banger.... a simple request for their permit is all that is needed.

I have gone to a few calls where people called in after seeing a gun under some clothing. I figure.... if it is not followed by... "and they just robbed the business.." I suspect there is little to really worry about.

imperialism2024 · Jun 25, 2008

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I think the bigger question/problem is determining whether or not someone is an LEO, who is giving orders and trying to disarm you.

If you have safely identified the other person as an LEO, then it's a fairly straightforward process. Do what the LEO says, then sue his ass off later.

But the greater issue is how to tell that one is an LEO, especially when it's a split-second decision. If a gang of guys with guns breaks down your door in the middle of the night while yelling "Police!", what do you do? We've had that discussion... If someone obscured by a shadow or is in any other way ambiguous yells at you to drop to the ground and put your arms behind your head, what do you do? If that person reaches for a gun?

Most stories I've seen here from OCers that involve bad LEO encounters involve one or more patrol cars rolling up, which are a fairly good giveaway that you're dealing with the real police, and not street-level gun grabbers. How about when it's not that clear? You have a duty to protect yourself... but it's also generally not a good idea to shoot cops.

I have yet to come up with a good answer. Blind compliance with any order could get me killed, but then again I'd rather not shoot an anti-OC undercover cop who decides to disarm me in a rough fashion.

Perhaps a new spin on the importance of OC (and 4th amendment) training for LEOs is officer safety. If all officers knew the law, and knew how to handle situations involving guns properly, this wouldn't be an issue.

Sheriff · Jun 25, 2008

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imperialism2024 wrote:

But the greater issue is how to tell that one is an LEO, especially when it's a split-second decision. If a gang of guys with guns breaks down your door in the middle of the night while yelling "Police!", what do you do?

Interesting scenario. This just happened in Albemarle County, Virginia. Search warrant served at 4:00 a.m. The resident was awoken by all the noise and grabbed his gun to defend himself and his home. He was shot twice by the police.

Link....

http://www.dailyprogress.com/cdp/news/local/crime/article/man_shot_by_police_recovering/7819/

nwsafety · Jun 26, 2008

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Very interesting. Of course court is the next step, but drag it on. What if the LEO pulled his weopon? Obviously this could be the decision that may ruin your day.

Now as a past LEO who worked with Gang Members, you have to be considerate to a point. OC doesnt make you bullet proof, above the law or invisible. Every citizen has a right and pays for the 911 service and they as you would expect some kind of justice when they report a crime. A LEO dispatched to a call of "Man with Gun in store" is chain smoking and biting his nails all the way to the scene. When he makes contact, he is scared and at that point doesnt give a crap about anything but his safety or anyone elses... not including you. You are nothing more than a person with a gun. A threat. Im astonished at the anti-police activities that so many are gung ho on. When the LEO is trying to just do his job, why would you denie offering ID and whatever else they demand? The LEO needs to one, make a point that he is doing his job infront of the caller so he's going to be the bad ass. He must take control.

The cops are just doing their job as Law Enforcement. He doesnt know anything until the information is givin to him. This information is vital and needed quickly so he can secure the situation as fast as possible and take control. Offering up information is the safest solution to quickly defuse the situation. When you say, "No, i dont have to give you my info, i did nothing wrong". Yes you did. If someone called the cops, you apperently scared someone or made a disruption which you may not be aware of. Defieing the Police gets you no place. The quicker the officer is in control, the quicker it is over with. Me personally, i would give out all the info he needs. Im too busy to be shook down in a store for 30 min. In the end, if all goes smoothly you gain the respect of a few cops, most likely made a new friend, educated everyone who was in the store including the cop and showed that you are a responsible citizen enough to carry a weopon. Not co oporating can be displayed as a irresponsible citizen.

Now with all that being said, i beleive that you should exercise your rights. no doubt about it. However, if you are going to OC or even CC you should be adult and responsible enough to assist as a private citizen, the Police when a crime is commited. Until you prove your point, the perception is a crime. You soly contol the perception that you give to others. being defiant is not handing out a good perception to the on looker. Its 2008. We are at war. We have terrorists attacking our country. As a US citizen you should do your part to protect you and your sorroundings even if it means telling a cop your name when he askes.

Im not bashing at all. im all for it, however i choose to de-escilate the situation so everyone is cool, as fast as possible. even if it means i have to show a cop my ID.

compmanio365 · Jun 26, 2008

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nwsafety wrote:

Very interesting. Of course court is the next step, but drag it on. What if the LEO pulled his weopon? Obviously this could be the decision that may ruin your day.

Now as a past LEO who worked with Gang Members, you have to be considerate to a point. OC doesnt make you bullet proof, above the law or invisible. Every citizen has a right and pays for the 911 service and they as you would expect some kind of justice when they report a crime. A LEO dispatched to a call of "Man with Gun in store" is chain smoking and biting his nails all the way to the scene. When he makes contact, he is scared and at that point doesnt give a crap about anything but his safety or anyone elses... not including you. You are nothing more than a person with a gun. A threat. Im astonished at the anti-police activities that so many are gung ho on. When the LEO is trying to just do his job, why would you denie offering ID and whatever else they demand? The LEO needs to one, make a point that he is doing his job infront of the caller so he's going to be the bad ass. He must take control.

The cops are just doing their job as Law Enforcement. He doesnt know anything until the information is givin to him. This information is vital and needed quickly so he can secure the situation as fast as possible and take control. Offering up information is the safest solution to quickly defuse the situation. When you say, "No, i dont have to give you my info, i did nothing wrong". Yes you did. If someone called the cops, you apperently scared someone or made a disruption which you may not be aware of. Defieing the Police gets you no place. The quicker the officer is in control, the quicker it is over with. Me personally, i would give out all the info he needs. Im too busy to be shook down in a store for 30 min. In the end, if all goes smoothly you gain the respect of a few cops, most likely made a new friend, educated everyone who was in the store including the cop and showed that you are a responsible citizen enough to carry a weopon. Not co oporating can be displayed as a irresponsible citizen.

Now with all that being said, i beleive that you should exercise your rights. no doubt about it. However, if you are going to OC or even CC you should be adult and responsible enough to assist as a private citizen, the Police when a crime is commited. Until you prove your point, the perception is a crime. You soly contol the perception that you give to others. being defiant is not handing out a good perception to the on looker. Its 2008. We are at war. We have terrorists attacking our country. As a US citizen you should do your part to protect you and your sorroundings even if it means telling a cop your name when he askes.

Im not bashing at all. im all for it, however i choose to de-escilate the situation so everyone is cool, as fast as possible. even if it means i have to show a cop my ID.

Papers please!

I guess we're showing some "anti-social" behaviors.....are you sure you aren't from across the pond? :banghead:

"If you aren't a criminal then you have nothing to hide!"......right? :uhoh:

imperialism2024 · Jun 26, 2008

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nwsafety wrote:

Very interesting. Of course court is the next step, but drag it on. What if the LEO pulled his weopon? Obviously this could be the decision that may ruin your day.

Now as a past LEO who worked with Gang Members, you have to be considerate to a point. OC doesnt make you bullet proof, above the law or invisible. Every citizen has a right and pays for the 911 service and they as you would expect some kind of justice when they report a crime. A LEO dispatched to a call of "Man with Gun in store" is chain smoking and biting his nails all the way to the scene. When he makes contact, he is scared and at that point doesnt give a crap about anything but his safety or anyone elses... not including you. You are nothing more than a person with a gun. A threat. Im astonished at the anti-police activities that so many are gung ho on. When the LEO is trying to just do his job, why would you denie offering ID and whatever else they demand? The LEO needs to one, make a point that he is doing his job infront of the caller so he's going to be the bad ass. He must take control.

The cops are just doing their job as Law Enforcement. He doesnt know anything until the information is givin to him. This information is vital and needed quickly so he can secure the situation as fast as possible and take control. Offering up information is the safest solution to quickly defuse the situation. When you say, "No, i dont have to give you my info, i did nothing wrong". Yes you did. If someone called the cops, you apperently scared someone or made a disruption which you may not be aware of. Defieing the Police gets you no place. The quicker the officer is in control, the quicker it is over with. Me personally, i would give out all the info he needs. Im too busy to be shook down in a store for 30 min. In the end, if all goes smoothly you gain the respect of a few cops, most likely made a new friend, educated everyone who was in the store including the cop and showed that you are a responsible citizen enough to carry a weopon. Not co oporating can be displayed as a irresponsible citizen.

Now with all that being said, i beleive that you should exercise your rights. no doubt about it. However, if you are going to OC or even CC you should be adult and responsible enough to assist as a private citizen, the Police when a crime is commited. Until you prove your point, the perception is a crime. You soly contol the perception that you give to others. being defiant is not handing out a good perception to the on looker. Its 2008. We are at war. We have terrorists attacking our country. As a US citizen you should do your part to protect you and your sorroundings even if it means telling a cop your name when he askes.

Im not bashing at all. im all for it, however i choose to de-escilate the situation so everyone is cool, as fast as possible. even if it means i have to show a cop my ID.

I like that line. The one I bolded.

The biggest terrorist threat in this country is from within. And I'm not talking anti-government groups here. Ask gun owners in Louisiana if they have been terrorized more by Arabs, or by government agents. Ask the citizens at Ruby Ridge and Waco (er, the ones who weren't gunned-down and otherwise killed) about whether they fear more Al Qaida or the Federal government.

I see that you're a new member. Take a look around this site a little more, and you'll see many of your objections answered. Most of us aren't just about the Second Amendment, but the Fourth Amendment and Fifth as well.

How would you react this encounter

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