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Thread: CCW Class

  1. #1
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    I decided to go ahead and take the CCW class because there are situations where I do prefer concealed carry. I prefer open carry when anonymous in public placesbut when I'm around people I know not all of whom are that comfortable with firearms, I prefer to just keep the gun itself hidden. The class did seem to be beneficial as it covered quite a few relevant topics related to defensive shooting and firearms laws. However, the instructor was not very OC-friendly. I am wondering if others here who have taken these classes have run into the same thing. I don't think the instructor liked me in his class as much as the others because I did bring up to several of the other students on breaks that I regularly OC and it caused people to ask about it in class who were previously in the dark about it. The instructor basically kept saying that it is legal but the general public could consider it "brandishing" and cause an unwanted police encounter. I have OCed hundreds if not thousands of times by now and only had one actual police encounter related specifically to the fact that I was carrying. The reason was that I was carrying where guns were prohibited by the establishment yet since no sign was present or too small to see, they could only ask me to leave and return without the weapon. The police politely scolded the management for not having posted signs and wasting their time.

    Back to the point, I certainly see a benefit to CC when you want to remain anonymous as a gun owner in certain social circles or certain public places and perhaps where you reside. I have always felt that OC is more practical and would actually like to also OC the pepperspray I currently CC and need a holster for that. I have personally been tested on the benefits of OC in real-life situations because when I needed to pull out the pepperspray, it took substantially longer than it should have because it was CC in my pocket. Basically, the CC curriculum seems to imply to the students that they need a permit to carry a gun which is not true. Pretty much everyone in the class was new to handguns and had never carried before in public outside of hunting grounds. Basically, everyone is there because they would like to start carrying yet few if any were previously aware that they already could carry but just not concealed. People broke for lunch and most went to a fast food place. I brought a lunch so I didn't go with the class but I should have gone and carried openly just to see what the reactions would be. The students would have been positive but I already knew the instructor had an attitude when I told him I carry openly.

    So what is the deal here? Why is there so much of an attitude against OCers by CCers? I have noticed that when I run into anti-OC attitudes in public places it is usually not by anti-gunners but by GUN OWNERS who CC. At a restaurant, one even had the nerve to come up to me and show me his CCW permit as if he had some kind of authority due to his permit. I have two theores on this and I'm hoping others can chime in here. One theory is the revenue system. If the general public knows they can carry openly without a permit, they will likely start carrying a gun when they need to and then later get the CCW permit at their convenience like I have done. This of course will cause less of a demand for students in the class which means less money. Don't get me wrong as I think it is a good class but I believe that consumers need to be educated about all of the options they have available including open carry without taking the class. There are probably a lot of women out there who are being stalked and run to a gun shop to get a gun but end up waiting weeks before they carry it due to scheduling the class and waiting for the CCW permit to arrive when they could start carrying their gun openly the same day they buy it. The second theory is a superiority complex. Those who have the permit and CC feel special and entitled because they have invested time and money and been proven "worthy" by the authorities. So when a non-permit holder walks by them carrying a huge revolver with a super long barrel, it hurts their ego complex.

    I think all of us have noticed how people are always asking "Do you have a permit?" for our guns and even I thought originally that you had to have a permit to carry weapons. Unlike most of the public, I did my homework and found out that OC is legal and started OCing a large knife before I became a gun owner. Enough said. Any thoughts on this?



  2. #2
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    I brought up the fact that open carry was legal at my class and the instructors got their ego bruised from it, and said why are you here taking the class if you're going to open carry? Do you have something to prove? and lastly they just resorted to "People would get scared and you shouldn't do it"

    lol

  3. #3
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    At my class, one of the handouts on the law pointed out that OC is legal, but that in their opinion, it wasn't ethical or safe to do so in a crowded urban enviroment. They said that over the last (I believe) 15 years there had been at least three confirmed incidents in my areaof BG's deliberately going for an OC weapon to steal it and run. The instructor also pointed out the fact that if you are in a crowded grocery store isle, a hip carried gun is about eye level with a lot of 10 year olds, which can be scary for them if they aren't used to guns---and in turn that upsets the families.

    I used to think the claim of 'you're scaring people' was nonsense as I grew up with firearms. But, about two weeks ago, carrying a Daisy BB gun in rural Cal. , I wound up scaring two families bad enough for one family to run everybody inside, and the head of the house from the other family to confront me and ask what I was doing. People are weird about guns these days!

    What I have discovered (and you might want to consider) is that you can carry a gun in a belt holster with a good cover garment. I found this site that has vests designed for IDPSA shooting that also work well for everyday carry, especially when it's warm. It's the best of both worlds, as the gun is concealed but very quickly available:

    www.concealedcarryoutfitters.com

  4. #4
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    Loneviking wrote:

    I used to think the claim of 'you're scaring people' was nonsense as I grew up with firearms. But, about two weeks ago, carrying a Daisy BB gun in rural Cal. , I wound up scaring two families bad enough for one family to run everybody inside, and the head of the house from the other family to confront me and ask what I was doing. People are weird about guns these days!
    personally, while it may sound rather cold and callous, I will not compromise my safety or the safety of my family for someone elses comfort. If someone were to confront me in that manner, I would kindly inform him that I was carrying a BB gun. had he not been deprived of valuable lessons early in his life he may have recognized it.

  5. #5
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    unreconstructed1 wrote:
    Loneviking wrote:

    I used to think the claim of 'you're scaring people' was nonsense as I grew up with firearms. But, about two weeks ago, carrying a Daisy BB gun in rural Cal. , I wound up scaring two families bad enough for one family to run everybody inside, and the head of the house from the other family to confront me and ask what I was doing. People are weird about guns these days!
    personally, while it may sound rather cold and callous, I will not compromise my safety or the safety of my family for someone elses comfort. If someone were to confront me in that manner, I would kindly inform him that I was carrying a BB gun. had he not been deprived of valuable lessons early in his life he may have recognized it.
    Yeah, that's pretty much what I told him. What's odd is that this is rural Cal. where I grew up target shooting and hunting when I was a kid. Now you have families there who can't even recognize a BB gun and panic over the mere sight ofany gun!:shock: Anyway, as I was pointing out to the OP, one doesn't have to compromise their personal or families safety. There are ways to carry/conceal that accomplish both goals...

  6. #6
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    God I love AZ. When I took my CCW class, we went out to lunch and about half the class was OCing-including the instructor. :celebrate

  7. #7
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    NaT805 wrote:
    I brought up the fact that open carry was legal at my class and the instructors got their ego bruised from it, and said why are you here taking the class if you're going to open carry? Do you have something to prove? and lastly they just resorted to "People would get scared and you shouldn't do it"

    lol
    I noticed that in my class there was a lot of talk in terms of what was legal and recommended and what was legal but not a good idea. I can see the point where when you OC you do put yourself out there a bit more and have to be more vigilant and prepared and perhaps for a novice, OC may not be a good idea. However, I always believe that people should be educated on the facts and given the option to decide rather than making one-sided approaches. On the other hand, there is only so much you can fit into an 8-hour class. A lot of people who take the CCW class are probably new to guns or new to carrying them and many might be recent victims of crime who suddenly "need" a gun. Such people are very inexperienced with firearms and do not yet have the mental conditioning or knowledge expected of those who carry. Luckily for me I had already read up on laws and mentally conditioned myself before I started carrying. This began with a concealed pocket knife and pepperspray can, eventually moved up to a large openly-carried knife, and finally to an openly-carried handgun. Someone from my background who has studied and thought good and hard before buying and carrying is more in a position to OC than someone who has never thought about self-defense in their life and then suddenly registers for the class the day after they got robbed at gunpoint.

    So a more appropriate and unbiased view displayed to the class on OC probably would come in the form of the following: OC if you feel confident and are reasonably experienced and mentally conditioned on self-defense but if you are still new to this, CC in the time being.

    Maybe I'm wrong here and others can chime in but after taking the class, I got a new opinion and angle on CC vs. OC. CC allows an individual to opt-out and generally makes the person a passive defender. You go on about your business doing whatever it is that you do but you have your gun in case you need it. Should a volatile situation occur, you can retreat if able to or if you are not able to or choose not to, you have a fighting tool. The reason you have an opt-out is because nobody knows you are carrying. If someone walks in the restaurant and starts shooting, you could runout the door like everyone else or stay and fight. Likewise, should you be in a convenience store and someone is robbing the place, the clerk and robber do not know you are carrying and you could easily hit the door or hide behind a shelf or you could choose to fight. I would recommend this technique (and I am no arms or defenseexpert, believe me) to a novice who is a passive defender. They don't do what-if scenarios, they are often in condition white, but simply have the tool in case they need it. Such people really don't have the mental conditioning and training to be prepared to handle serious situations unless it directly involves them.

    An individual who OCs is more of what I would call an active protector. They might not be in real life but this is how they are viewed by the public. The public including citizens and even police are going to assume that someone who OCs knows what they are doing. The general public will likely assume that you are a police officer or security guard and if not they will assume that you at least have credibility in that you know how to use the gun, know the laws, and are capable of handling volatile situations. While OC is a great education tool for the public, I do think that it is a huge responsibility because you are viewed and treated like a police officer. If someone in your vicinity is in danger, the public will come to you for help and they will expect that you are capable of helping them. If someone is shooting up a place, everyone will get behind YOU. There really isn't an opt-out when you OC. Anyone threatened will expect and count on you to help them just as they would run to a police officer for assistance. So if you are in a convenience store and see it getting held up, the robber and clerk have seen the gun which will mean that the clerk is counting on your help and this may mean a shootout with the robber. You may be the only person who can and MUST deal with the hostage situation. So people who OC should take it very seriously and get regular practice because it is a bigger responsibility.

    Didn't mean to rattle on so much but even in the limited time of the class, instructors could at least highlight the differences between OC and CC such as I have (and again I'm no expert) in an unbiased manner instead of simply knocking it as something that is "not a good idea." OC is not a good idea for some people but for others it is something that is the best option.



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