My encounter at 16

Walleye · Jun 25, 2008

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I'm with imperalism2024 on this one. Two young men come knocking on your door in the middle of winter at 2100 in the evening isn't cause for alarm or caution? I don't think he wanted to take any chances.

You think he overreacted; most of us will disagree. An overreaction would have been if he'd shot you.

Citizen · Jun 25, 2008

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Guys!!

I don't understand why we're having this debate.

The law in many states, if not all,is clear on a particular point in the story.

When the homeowner called the kid's attention to the pointed firearm it was, at a minimum, brandishing.

End of discussion. We don't need to resort to personal opinion. What are we going to do, rehash 600 years of common law on threatening someone with aweapon?

possumboy · Jun 25, 2008

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unreconstructed1 wrote:

while I wouldn't necessarily have the gun pointed at you, especially with my finger on the trigger, ANYONE who knocks on my door past a given time will be greeted as courteously as anyone else, with the exception that my pistol will be in my hand instead of my holster. that's just teh way it is for me.

I have never answered the door past a given time.

I have always went to a window and asked the person what was needed.

I am armed, but I do not have a light on me, and there is a light on the person.I have let people into my cars to stay warm while waiting and given them food, drinks, and phone access. Since the children came around, no one I do not know gets into my house after hours.

If they drive off in the car, it has lo-jack and it was better than having to defend my familyin my home.

deepdiver · Jun 25, 2008

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Perhaps the gentleman had heard of James Parker, Rob Tulloch and the Dartmouth Murders. Jim and Rob were two teenage boys who attempted the "just got in an accident" as a ruse to gain entry to two homes before changing tactics to gain entry and murder the Zantops. And they were not the first. I can understand the man's concern and caution.

While pointing it at you with his finger on the trigger is a huge no-no by today's standards, depending when, how or if he were trained, he may have been taught that method. The OP also states "we were in the middle of nowhere". In context, I can see why the cops didn't get all that excited about the situation. I can tell you that I would not have let them in the house with my fiancee there. I would have called the police for them while they waited on the front porch. Whether I offered further assistance would depend on many factors.

Alwayspacking · Jun 25, 2008

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You can just say he is a crazy old man. Would it surprise you that a old man would do something like that, then have his wife put him in order. It is a classic situation if you ask me. It was not wrong to have a loaded gun at the door, it was wrong to point it at you for no reason. From reading some of the first fewpost I see you understand that.

And yeah If someone draws on the old man in that situation, they would have to be a very good shooter to win that shootout, and then they would have to be very convincer good to win in court.

mzbk2l · Jun 25, 2008

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Citizen wrote:

Guys!!

I don't understand why we're having this debate.

The law in many states, if not all,is clear on a particular point in the story.

When the homeowner called the kid's attention to the pointed firearm it was, at a minimum, brandishing.

End of discussion. We don't need to resort to personal opinion. What are we going to do, rehash 600 years of common law on threatening someone with aweapon?

So you don't feel that a defensive display of a weapon when some stranger knocks on your door out in the country after dark is appropriate?

I'm with the old guy (homeowner) on this one.

Adam, it doesn't matter that YOU knew you weren't a threat. The man whose property you were trespassing on did not know that, and he reacted accordingly.

tattedupboy · Jun 25, 2008

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If I were the homeowner in this situation, I definitely would not have pointed the gun. Pointing the gun after opening the door doesn't make much sense. It seems to me that he should have first determined if the person knocking at the door was a threat, and then if he does, then he should not even open the door. If he determines that the perosn is not a threat, he should put the gun away, but keep it ready in case the guest turns on him. Opening the door and then pointing at someone who has not shown themselves to be a threat was not the way to go, even on his own property.

unreconstructed1 · Jun 25, 2008

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tattedupboy wrote:

If I were the homeowner in this situation, I definitely would not have pointed the gun. Pointing the gun after opening the door doesn't make much sense. It seems to me that he should have first determined if the person knocking at the door was a threat, and then if he does, then he should not even open the door. If he determines that the perosn is not a threat, he should put the gun away, but keep it ready in case the guest turns on him. Opening the door and then pointing at someone who has not shown themselves to be a threat was not the way to go, even on his own property.

+1

PT111 · Jun 26, 2008

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I see three different opinions here. One is personal opinions that vary all over the place and I don't know what I would ahve done.

Second is the legal opinion and as long as he didn't shoot you I can't see where he did anything illegal. If he had shot you then it would depend on the mood of the jury that day.

The general opinion of this board is that you are lucky he didn't shoot you through the door under the Castle Doctrine law and would have been well within his rights to do it.

Overall is that the man did nothing wrong and you are lucky you didn't get shot. If you had given him any lip then he probably would have shot you and been within his rights.

Gunslinger · Jun 26, 2008

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Aran wrote:

Gunslinger wrote:

quote>>Pointing a pistol at me now wouldn't be a good idea especially seeing I would see this as a threat against my life!<<quote

You go up to someone's home, and he has a pistol, so you bring yours out and point it at him and you'll be a guest of the state for a long, long time. You were on his property, at his front door, he didn't know you from Adam. While he perhaps should have kept the gun out of sight--as I've done in similar circumstances, although it was at 3AM, he was completely within his rights to have the weapon. Your comment that you would pull a gun on someone while on his property is the dumbest thing I've heard on this forum. Stay off his property, or if you choose to go, keep the gun to yourself or you'll wind up dead, and with full justification, or in jail. If someone came to my door, and I had a pistol, then for WHATEVER reason drew his own, I wouldn't have to call the cops. Just the Cornoner. "Dead witnesses offer slight rebuttal."

Click to expand...

I'm embarrassed to share a forum with you. You're insane.

Within his rights to hold you at gunpoint for knocking on his door? Sell your guns, you're a danger to everyone around you.

Hey moron, learn how to read. Nobody held anyone at gunpoint. I guess in your fantasy world the words mean only what you want them to. I doubt you even have a gun to sell, working at the car wash you dumb a-hole. Good luck on your GED.

Gunslinger · Jun 26, 2008

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adam40cal wrote:

And see me and my brother were very kind to this man we told him exactly what happened he seen my truck in the ditch and knew we just got in an accident. As I said before I understand him having the gun. The point of my story was use self defense when self defense is needed don't jump to conclusions. At the time this happened Michigan had a self defense law that you had a a duty to retreat which in this case the man was the aggressor. All in all this man broke the law even though we were on his property, he pulled a gun in a threating manner when he had no right to do so. If he was that worried he could have yelled through the door we'll call the police for you there was no need to take it to the level he did.

He didn't break the law. Duty to retreat is only for use of deadly force, not having a weapon in your hand. Even with that, an older person, handicapped, etc has no duty to retreat because they physically can't. Don't know it that was the case with this guy, but a lot of older people are afraid of kids--he didn't know you guys were ok. Keep that in mind, too.

Gunslinger · Jun 26, 2008

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adam40cal wrote:

Walleye wrote:

If I were in the homeowner's position, I'd have answered the door not with a pistol... But with a shotgun. I would have told you to keep your hands up and not to move. Then I'd ask you what your business is.

In your position, I would have yielded full respect to the homeowner and requested access to the phone or requested him to call the police.

Just because an area is low crime doesn't mean it couldn't happen. He may have had a real attitude problem, but if he was old and it was late in the evening in the middle of winter, who wouldn't? Given your situation, his attitude should have been the least of your problems.

Click to expand...

What part are you people not understanding? I was very polite to this guy and all I wanted was for him to call the police I didn't ask to come in his house. And for the record you can't just pull a gun on someone if they are not showing a threat and just knocking on your door! if this is the mind set you people have you will probably end up in jail one of these days. Show me in the law where this is justifiable to pull a gun on someone for knocking on your door.

Adam, yes you can have a gun in your own home and show it when someone comes to the door and you have reasonable fear of a felony about to be committed, i.e., forced entry. The law is as I've stated before--protection of person and property and goes back to Common Law. A homeowner has a ready defense against a charge of assault or aggrevated assault. He can use reasonable force to remove a trespasser from his land, and deadly force against a home invader. He felt you kids threatened to be the latter. He was wrong, but within his rights. Fortunately, his wife was more sympathetic, but he broke no laws.

Gunslinger · Jun 26, 2008

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Citizen wrote:

Guys!!

I don't understand why we're having this debate.

The law in many states, if not all,is clear on a particular point in the story.

When the homeowner called the kid's attention to the pointed firearm it was, at a minimum, brandishing.

End of discussion. We don't need to resort to personal opinion. What are we going to do, rehash 600 years of common law on threatening someone with aweapon?

It is not brandishing, and Common Law clearly gives the homeowner the right to have and make known that he has a deadly weapon. So does statutory law virtually everywhere in the US. This was his home, not the street. As he didn't threaten to shoot the kids, or hold them at gunpoint as that idiot "Aran" saw in his crack fantasy, he violated no law. Short on common sense, yes, but within his rights.

deepdiver · Jun 26, 2008

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I don't see how even under a castle doctrine law there would have been any remotely justifiable reason for him to pull the trigger. I assume that was tongue in cheek.

Gunslinger · Jun 26, 2008

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deepdiver wrote:

I don't see how even under a castle doctrine law there would have been any remotely justifiable reason for him to pull the trigger. I assume that was tongue in cheek.

No, no reason to shoot the kids at all, but having the piece was completely lawful. He could only use deadly force against a crime of violence--and b&e is one in most states. But unless I missed something, he didn't ever threaten to use deadly force, just displayed a weapon. In your home that is completely legal--and prudent, imo. I had someone, at 3AM, come to the door in MA. Young guy, same story--car accident. I answered the door with my Hi-Power in my hand, cocked, finger outside the trigger guard, but behind the door. When he asked if I would call the cops, I said sure. He never saw the Browning--no need of it, but if needed it would be in action quickly. That's how the guy should have handled the situation. But, he broke no laws with his actions. If he came out to the front yard and pointed the gun at the kids, different story. But in your home, the law is much more lenient towards the homeowner.

Dustin · Jun 26, 2008

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I don't trust strangers, and I only trust a few family members.

You come knocking on my door, you'll get a similar response.

If I've surveyed the situation, and see all is clear, than I'll give you the shirt off my back, but not until I'm convinced all is clear.

The Old man was probably just paranoid some punk kids were trying to screw with him.

Can you blame him ?

Plus this guy could have been a War Vet on Pills and Beer.

Eitherway He was in his house, and you were on his property, not to metion on his front porch knocking on his door.

Aran · Jun 26, 2008

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Gunslinger wrote:

Aran wrote:

Gunslinger wrote:

quote>>Pointing a pistol at me now wouldn't be a good idea especially seeing I would see this as a threat against my life!<<quote

You go up to someone's home, and he has a pistol, so you bring yours out and point it at him and you'll be a guest of the state for a long, long time. You were on his property, at his front door, he didn't know you from Adam. While he perhaps should have kept the gun out of sight--as I've done in similar circumstances, although it was at 3AM, he was completely within his rights to have the weapon. Your comment that you would pull a gun on someone while on his property is the dumbest thing I've heard on this forum. Stay off his property, or if you choose to go, keep the gun to yourself or you'll wind up dead, and with full justification, or in jail. If someone came to my door, and I had a pistol, then for WHATEVER reason drew his own, I wouldn't have to call the cops. Just the Cornoner. "Dead witnesses offer slight rebuttal."

Click to expand...

I'm embarrassed to share a forum with you. You're insane.

Within his rights to hold you at gunpoint for knocking on his door? Sell your guns, you're a danger to everyone around you.

Click to expand...

Hey moron, learn how to read. Nobody held anyone at gunpoint. I guess in your fantasy world the words mean only what you want them to. I doubt you even have a gun to sell, working at the car wash you dumb a-hole. Good luck on your GED.

Mmm, ad hominem attack. Sign of someone with no opinion worth hearing.

Gunslinger · Jun 26, 2008

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Aran wrote:

Gunslinger wrote:

Aran wrote:

Gunslinger wrote:

quote>>Pointing a pistol at me now wouldn't be a good idea especially seeing I would see this as a threat against my life!<<quote

You go up to someone's home, and he has a pistol, so you bring yours out and point it at him and you'll be a guest of the state for a long, long time. You were on his property, at his front door, he didn't know you from Adam. While he perhaps should have kept the gun out of sight--as I've done in similar circumstances, although it was at 3AM, he was completely within his rights to have the weapon. Your comment that you would pull a gun on someone while on his property is the dumbest thing I've heard on this forum. Stay off his property, or if you choose to go, keep the gun to yourself or you'll wind up dead, and with full justification, or in jail. If someone came to my door, and I had a pistol, then for WHATEVER reason drew his own, I wouldn't have to call the cops. Just the Cornoner. "Dead witnesses offer slight rebuttal."

Click to expand...

I'm embarrassed to share a forum with you. You're insane.

Within his rights to hold you at gunpoint for knocking on his door? Sell your guns, you're a danger to everyone around you.

Click to expand...

Hey moron, learn how to read. Nobody held anyone at gunpoint. I guess in your fantasy world the words mean only what you want them to. I doubt you even have a gun to sell, working at the car wash you dumb a-hole. Good luck on your GED.

Click to expand...

Mmm, ad hominem attack. Sign of someone with no opinion worth hearing.

"You're insane." Who wrote that? I'm not sure if you're simply a fool or have some other agenda. In either case, you demonstrate your ignorance quite well.

Legba · Jun 26, 2008

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I had a similar situation happen when I was young. We were leaving a party and I was a passenger in a car with a drunk driver (we got stranded - our ride had left and we took what transportation we could get). Anyway, we crashed into a tree in someone's front yard shortly thereafter. I went to the door to ask for help (I had chunks of the rearview mirror embedded in my skull and another guy's legs were hurt), only to have some elderly woman open up with a string of profane theats that would have made a sailor blush/cringe. She said that she had already called the police and that we had better not try to flee, etc.

I ended up going next door to use the neighbor's phone for a ride home (after the police made their report and called a tow) and an off-duty cop lived there. He was very civil and helpful, even offering to help dress my head wound after I declined an ambulance. He certainly didn't feel obliged to threaten us (even implicitly) with weapons, perhaps because it was obvious that we were in no condition to pose any threat to anyone evenif we wanted to. Anyway, you never know about people. Mundane events can seem sinister if your mind works that way, and it was ironic that the person who dealt with sinister events on a routine basis was the more helpful. That's not to dismiss what your intruder was trying to do as mundane or benign - but it's not always obvious what someone is up to.

-ljp

Aran · Jun 26, 2008

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Gunslinger wrote:

Aran wrote:

Gunslinger wrote:

Aran wrote:

Gunslinger wrote:

quote>>Pointing a pistol at me now wouldn't be a good idea especially seeing I would see this as a threat against my life!<<quote

You go up to someone's home, and he has a pistol, so you bring yours out and point it at him and you'll be a guest of the state for a long, long time. You were on his property, at his front door, he didn't know you from Adam. While he perhaps should have kept the gun out of sight--as I've done in similar circumstances, although it was at 3AM, he was completely within his rights to have the weapon. Your comment that you would pull a gun on someone while on his property is the dumbest thing I've heard on this forum. Stay off his property, or if you choose to go, keep the gun to yourself or you'll wind up dead, and with full justification, or in jail. If someone came to my door, and I had a pistol, then for WHATEVER reason drew his own, I wouldn't have to call the cops. Just the Cornoner. "Dead witnesses offer slight rebuttal."

Click to expand...

I'm embarrassed to share a forum with you. You're insane.

Within his rights to hold you at gunpoint for knocking on his door? Sell your guns, you're a danger to everyone around you.

Click to expand...

Hey moron, learn how to read. Nobody held anyone at gunpoint. I guess in your fantasy world the words mean only what you want them to. I doubt you even have a gun to sell, working at the car wash you dumb a-hole. Good luck on your GED.

Click to expand...

Mmm, ad hominem attack. Sign of someone with no opinion worth hearing.

Click to expand...

"You're insane." Who wrote that? I'm not sure if you're simply a fool or have some other agenda. In either case, you demonstrate your ignorance quite well.

Based on your opinions, I feel you are insane. That is not ad hominem.

My encounter at 16

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