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Thread: Misguided CPL instructors

  1. #1
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    A co-worker of mine just took his cpl class this past saturday here in muskegon. during the course, a retired sheriff instructed the class that once they received their cpl, they would forfeit their right to open carry. i told him that his instructor is wrong and that he now has the option to carry either way. i was told the same thing through another cpl class here in muskegon.



    why do local instructors continue to give out the wrong information? is there something i could send to the local gun shops that are signing people up for these classes?

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    I tend to find that CPL classes contain more opinion than legal facts and clear interpretation. The best attitude is to take the class to fulfill state requirements, and see professional handgun training, and professional legal advice. When you mix those two into a one-day class that combines the opinions of a "gun expert" and a "legal expert" (often a police officer or retired officer), so much BS gets thrown around that if you hang onto every word, you will walk out more confused than when you arrived.

    Ill go head to head with ANYONE who thinks they can show me a valid piece of legislation that would prohibit a citizen in legal possession of a handgun from openly carrying it.

    I would say that a brochure could be made and an attempt could be made to get these into the hands of CPL class instructors.

    Fact is, a CPL is a expansion of your rights, and you surrender no rights to carry by having a CPL.

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    Furner wrote:
    I tend to find that CPL classes contain more opinion than legal facts and clear interpretation. The best attitude is to take the class to fulfill state requirements, and see professional handgun training, and professional legal advice. When you mix those two into a one-day class that combines the opinions of a "gun expert" and a "legal expert" (often a police officer or retired officer), so much BS gets thrown around that if you hang onto every word, you will walk out more confused than when you arrived.

    Ill go head to head with ANYONE who thinks they can show me a valid piece of legislation that would prohibit a citizen in legal possession of a handgun from openly carrying it.

    I would say that a brochure could be made and an attempt could be made to get these into the hands of CPL class instructors.

    Fact is, a CPL is a expansion of your rights, and you surrender no rights to carry by having a CPL.
    I don't think a CPL has anything to do with expanding any rights. IIRC, the reason that laws against CC were allowed to stand in the first place is that they were ruled to not be rights since people could still carry (OC). People aren't exercising any rights when they CC under license; they are exercising a privilege.


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    ghostrider wrote:
    Furner wrote:
    I tend to find that CPL classes contain more opinion than legal facts and clear interpretation. The best attitude is to take the class to fulfill state requirements, and see professional handgun training, and professional legal advice. When you mix those two into a one-day class that combines the opinions of a "gun expert" and a "legal expert" (often a police officer or retired officer), so much BS gets thrown around that if you hang onto every word, you will walk out more confused than when you arrived.

    Ill go head to head with ANYONE who thinks they can show me a valid piece of legislation that would prohibit a citizen in legal possession of a handgun from openly carrying it.

    I would say that a brochure could be made and an attempt could be made to get these into the hands of CPL class instructors.

    Fact is, a CPL is a expansion of your rights, and you surrender no rights to carry by having a CPL.
    I don't think a CPL has anything to do with expanding any rights. IIRC, the reason that laws against CC were allowed to stand in the first place is that they were ruled to not be rights since people could still carry (OC). People aren't exercising any rights when they CC under license; they are exercising a privilege.
    Correct. However, with a CPL, you are permitted to openly carry in some areas that persons without a CPL are flat out prohibited from carrying in.
    Such as schools. The Federal Gun-Free School Zones exempt those who have a license to carry. Michigan state law prohibits concealed carry in a school (except for drop-off/pick-up). However, a visitor to the school would under law be allowed to openly carry in school areas.

    Like they say, practically nothing is illegal with the right permit.

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    Michigan does not have any laws requiring concealment. Texas does. Printing is not illegal in michigan, in texas it is. Some states doe have laws stipulating concealment, fortunately michigan is NOT one of them....now if we could get rid of that pesky registration thing.

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    redneckdan wrote:
    Michigan does not have any laws requiring concealment. Texas does. Printing is not illegal in michigan, in texas it is. Some states doe have laws stipulating concealment, fortunately michigan is NOT one of them....now if we could get rid of that pesky registration thing.

    +1 on that.

    redneck, please include your location info. At least the county in which you reside.


    Oops!!! And welcome to OCDO.

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    Ferd wrote:
    A co-worker of mine just took his cpl class this past saturday here in muskegon. during the course, a retired sheriff instructed the class that once they received their cpl, they would forfeit their right to open carry. i told him that his instructor is wrong and that he now has the option to carry either way. i was told the same thing through another cpl class here in muskegon.



    why do local instructors continue to give out the wrong information? is there something i could send to the local gun shops that are signing people up for these classes?
    Part of it may be due (this is ONLY my opinion and nothing else) to the $$$CPL instructor's make in a classroom of 20 or so students at $100 to $150 a pop. When/if many residents of Michigan become informed ofOC being legal on foot withoutCPL, they may choose to opt-out of the class therefore putting a wrench-in-the-works for the instructor's.

    My guess would be, unless you knew the instructor(s) personally, I highly doubt they would listen to anything you had to say.

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    Well, as we're so fond of hearing, ignorance of the law is no excuse. I would say perhaps it's time that somebody starts a list of Concealed Permit Instructors that are putting out bad info. Give them the correct info and give them a chance to mend the errors of their ways. If not - LIST EM!

    If they think that OC will put a crimp in their business, wait till the see the effects of LYING to their students ABOUT THE LAW!!



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    I think BobCav mentions a good plan. We can start with the members here in the Michigan forum and relay the info to friends,family, co-workers. etc.who their instructor was and their location, etc.

    Possibly we may get one of the computer wizs' here to compile the list. And yes, that leaves me out. :?

    Any thoughts???

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    SpringerXDacp wrote:
    I think BobCav mentions a good plan. We can start with the members here in the Michigan forum and relay the info to friends,family, co-workers. etc.who their instructor was and their location, etc.

    Possibly we may get one of the computer wizs' here to compile the list. And yes, that leaves me out. :?

    Any thoughts???

    I would do it, I just need hosting space.

  11. #11
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    Can you imagine some cop saying that since you have a CDL you can not drive a car - only a truck! It is the same thing here but they seem to be afraid of anyone but them having guns.

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    Furner wrote:
    SpringerXDacp wrote:
    I think BobCav mentions a good plan. We can start with the members here in the Michigan forum and relay the info to friends,family, co-workers. etc.who their instructor was and their location, etc.

    Possibly we may get one of the computer wizs' here to compile the list. And yes, that leaves me out. :?

    Any thoughts???

    I would do it, I just need hosting space.
    See, I'm already confused.:?

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    The list can be maintained in a thread by the original poster and then stickied.

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    Had a similar discussion with my son when he took his CPL class, they just flat out said OC was illegal, and that one put us in a very extended discussion, yeah I won in the end.

  15. #15
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    I just recently had to register 11 new pistols for MTU pistol club, a corporation, which I am acting president off....it was a complete (deleted- non g-rated language). Here is what it cost me...

    Lost hours of work.........14.25hrs @ $15/hr
    Gasoline......312mi => 26 gal @ $4/gal
    Lost time waiting at home for chief to call....6hrs
    Personal time filling out paperwork....3.5hrs
    Registration Fees.......11 @ $5/ea
    Harassment from .gov officals .......Beyond what you could ever imagine

    total monetary costs exceed $350.00, the personal time is ireplaceble, the uneeded harassment just further entrenches my dislike of the direction our curent gun laws.





    SpringerXDacp wrote:
    redneckdan wrote:
    now if we could get rid of that pesky registration thing.

    +1 on that.


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    the legal "expert" lawyer instructing at my 2nd (don't ask) cpl class was not only an attorney, but a retired judge. Good thing he was retired. In 2006 didn't know open carry was legal, didn't know the AWB had expired, and gave incorrect info about transporting. Sure is a lot of misinformation out there.

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    defcon1 wrote:
    the legal "expert" lawyer instructing at my 2nd (don't ask) cpl class was not only an attorney, but a retired judge. Good thing he was retired. In 2006 didn't know open carry was legal, didn't know the AWB had expired, and gave incorrect info about transporting. Sure is a lot of misinformation out there.
    I can't believe how much misinformation is out here in Michigan. I just transferred to MI as a federal LEO. Almost ALL of the local LEO's have no idea (nor do gun stores) about gun laws. 3 big things none of them know.

    Open carry is legal on foot.

    You can open carry with a permit from ANY STATE anywhere you can not conceale carry.

    You can consume alcohol and open carry, if in a vehicle or concealed, you can't be above 0.02%



    I'm really tired of people not knowing this stuff.

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    The lawyer that does our classes, and running for Clare county prosecuting attorney, mentions that OC is legal in our state. And goes over the AG opinion on brandishing and all that good stuff When people hear that, we usually have to stop and talk about it for 45 min before we can get back on topic. And usually even before the laywer gets there someone will bring it up.
    The biggest question that I get is, "Do you do it?" which I answer truthfully, yes. Now i tell them that i dont all the time it, it depends how im feeling that day, but i do stress that with a CPL it just gives you the option to conceal it.

    So not all instructors are mindless anti OC, money grubbing aholes! :P

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    glock36 wrote:
    The lawyer that does our classes, and running for Clare county prosecuting attorney, mentions that OC is legal in our state. And goes over the AG opinion on brandishing and all that good stuff When people hear that, we usually have to stop and talk about it for 45 min before we can get back on topic. And usually even before the laywer gets there someone will bring it up.
    The biggest question that I get is, "Do you do it?" which I answer truthfully, yes. Now i tell them that i dont all the time it, it depends how im feeling that day, but i do stress that with a CPL it just gives you the option to conceal it.

    So not all instructors are mindless anti OC, money grubbing aholes! :P
    Okay not all. There is at least one good one
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

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    Venator wrote:
    glock36 wrote:
    The lawyer that does our classes, and running for Clare county prosecuting attorney, mentions that OC is legal in our state. And goes over the AG opinion on brandishing and all that good stuff When people hear that, we usually have to stop and talk about it for 45 min before we can get back on topic. And usually even before the laywer gets there someone will bring it up.
    The biggest question that I get is, "Do you do it?" which I answer truthfully, yes. Now i tell them that i dont all the time it, it depends how im feeling that day, but i do stress that with a CPL it just gives you the option to conceal it.

    So not all instructors are mindless anti OC, money grubbing aholes! :P
    Okay not all. There is at least one good one
    It's really a shame that 99% of the instructors gives the rest a bad name. j/k

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    Same went for my CPL class. There was no mention of open carry until a student brought it up. The instructors exact words were as follows:"Open carry is illegal, I think!?!" And then proceeded to ask the student where he heard that rumor. It seemed the student then became the teacher, because now, the instructor makes sure that everyone knows that its legal to open carry.
    The only terrorists I see nowadays are at the Capital.


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