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Only Two People Speak For OpenCarry.org

asforme

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I don't know how a board could ever be kept clean without any mods. Especially with the recent explosion in membership as a result of the LA Times and Nightline publicity.

However, to maintain the integrity and make sure that nothing except that which comes form Mike and John is seen as the view of OpenCarry.org, what about having mods with aliases. The mods can continue to post their opinions under their usernames, and be given an additional account with which they use exclusively for deleting spam, closing threads, or giving short reminders to get back on topic. The rule would be that the mod account is never to be used to express any opinions, simply to moderate with.

The information of which members are mods could remain entirely confidential.

I know this may seem a bit shady, but after seeing how much discussion was had over LEO being a mod that did nothing to help the OC movement, I think keeping these things secret may be the only way to keep the board focused and helpful to the cause of OC.
 

imperialism2024

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LEO 229 wrote:
[Good and accurate stuff]
I agree with just about everything you said.

Note that I haven't used the term "neutral" in my suggestions for what moderators should be. Member mods are expected to have their own opinions, yet they must be extra cautious in presenting these opinions in a fair and useful manner. I have yet to see you stray from this, LEO.

Hell, I'd sooner the members who attack you constantly (and mostly while off-topic) be banned than you be sanctioned. Those who will attack your character on the basis of stereotypes and generalizations, invoked by irrational emotional responses, are no better than the whiney gun-grabbing nanny-statists who paint all of us gun owners as serial killers.

I also don't really see the conflict of interest here. In playing along with the "cops v. gun owners" mentality, having a cop as a mod is just as much of a conflict of interest as having gun owners as mods. Surely, to have the most unbiased moderating possible, we need to find non-gun-owners to join. Even if LEO229 were strongly opposed to open carry and other expressions of freedom (which he isn't), there's no reason he shouldn't be able to be a mod, and even break up the groupthink once in a while. As long as one mod isn't fighting with other mods through editing and thread/post deletion, I don't see how this is an issue.

As I've said before, there are only two criticisms I have of the most recent batch of mods. First, is getting involved in OT discussion, when mods should be the ones discouraging it. Plus it provides a "the mod went OT, so I can too!" attitude for the more immature among us. Second, is not enough moderation to keep this board focused on open carry and freedom. I see LEO had been more proactive in this area, shutting down political spam threads and merging repetitive threads... but that still seems insufficient.

:?
 

dng

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I think this is a good idea. John and Mike will have a much larger workload trying to maintain the site, but I think that this will have a positive effect on the forums.
 

Sheriff

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ChinChin wrote:
(LEO229), While you have a legitimate point of there being a “us vs. them” mentality on the boards, it is one you yourself have helped to foster, regardless if such was your intent or otherwise.
I agree 100%, ChinChin!

Heck, I knew this was going to turn into a 10 or 12 page thread as soon as I saw it. :)

1) When you have a moderator who takes a "joke" about spaceships and anal probes --we all know they go hand in hand just like R C Cola and Moon Pies -- and is so paranoid as to delete the joke because he thinks the author is talking about him, that person has no business being a moderator.

:cuss:

2) And compares the VCDL to the KKK because he didn't even realize the spelling of Keystone Kops was correct.

:cuss:

3) Repeatedly questions the credibility and fact finding missions of the VCDL simply because his own police department was involved.

:cuss:

4) And tells people they must be off their medications repeatedly.

:cuss:

5) And goes into Private Message with a member and tells them he will delete any post that diverts attention back to him. How the heck can you respond to his posts without diverting attention back to him.

:cuss:

6) And do you think I would coerce another moderator into doing my dirty work so it doesn't appear I'mthe one doing it all.

:cuss:

7)A moderator who states in the public forums that the the Administrator is aware of his opinions and actions and backs him 100%, adding that theAdministrator has said tough sheet if the other members don't like it.

:cuss:

8) A moderator who repeatedly declares a new member has never been in any type of law enforcement --when this moderator has no clue where the person has been or what they have done in their career.

:cuss:

And all of this is just what I have observed in the last 5 weeks since I became a member here on OC.

I think John and Mike made a wise decision for the time being. If forum problems start to occupy too much of their time in the future, let themdecide then if they prefer to attempt the moderator system again.

I think it's important to take note of a portion of John'sreply once again...........

"While we support his right to speak freely and defend his beliefs, his position as moderator made it seem as if we were somehow advocating or allowing this attack. Let me make this perfectly clear ... WE WERE NOT! We do NOT have time to put out fires that we did not start!!!"
 

Sheriff

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LEO 229 wrote:
After being a member of this board for the past 16 months.... Having no idea who the author was… I questioned a VCDL alert.
You were told who the author was. You even acknowledged it.:)

LEO 229 wrote:
Posted: Mon Jun 23rd, 2008 11:10 am

You are expected to believe it because of the source? ... the VCDL.


AFTERMATH below, all posted by LEO229:

Mon Jun 23rd, 2008 12:32 pm

We shall see... VCDL.. please post some names! What is the harm?

Mon Jun 23rd, 2008 07:07 pm

Fairfax is not one that has this type of activity.

Tue Jun 24th, 2008 05:54 am

(The thread)should have been titled as a news alertand not a pot shotopportunityfor name calling. This really does show their mentality I guess. It tells me kids are in charge of the VCDL and not mature adults who think clearly.

Tue Jun 24th, 2008 01:43 pm

But the VCDL has made their decision. GUILTY! Keystone Kops are guilty as charged BEFORE the matter has been investigated. They have done their OWN investigation and have found the officers GUILTY as charged ...

Tue Jun 24th, 2008 01:59 pm

But for the VCDL to play their little name calling game and post an alert that lacked any credible information EXCEPT that it came from the VCDL... who they want everyone to believe is above reproach sickens me to high heaven.

I am on the other side of the kitchen watching the pot call the kettle black.....

Tue Jun 24th, 2008 02:06 pm

But the VCDL press can churn out what they like. They have left a bad taste in my mouth now.

Pardon me while I go brush me teeth....


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

remark comparing VCDL to the KKK retracted and hidden from view by LEO229

Last edited on Tue Jun 24th, 2008 02:12 pm by LEO 229

-------------------------------------------------------------------

Tue Jun 24th, 2008 02:17 pm

I do not follow the VCDL blindly..... I learned a long time ago that someone providing information can twist it to work in their favor by changing or omitting details to where they are not telling a lie... just not telling the the whole truth.....

Tue Jun 24th, 2008 02:31 pm

A forced apology (for my remarks) is pointless and meaningless....

Tue Jun 24th, 2008 03:04 pm

How am I to trust the words of someone I do not know (VCDL). Sorry... I work on a credit rating. You need to build up some credit before I believe EVERYTHING you say....

Tue Jun 24th, 2008 03:43 pm

...the VCDL is belittling three officers...



After the cards were played, and you realized you had gone off the deep end, your infamous distraction comes along.....

LEO 229 wrote:
Tue Jun 24th, 2008 03:56 pm This is getting too far off this topic.

LEO 229 wrote:
Wed Jun 25th, 2008 04:25 pm

John has advised that Iam entitled to speak my mind here even if some members would not like hearing my opinion.





 

BobCav

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Gents,please let's not turn this thread into yet another flame war. I think it's best that we let a dead dog lie for the betterment of OCDO. We all know what happened and rehashing it is only opening the wound again.

John did what he thought was best for the forum. His and Mike's forum. We should respect their wishes and move on like gentlemen. I've spoken to Johnon the phone many timesfrom that first "I want you to be our first moderator" call to just yesterday and I can assure you his first responsibility is to this forum. I understand exactly why he made LEO 229 a moderator and why he removed all moderators. OCDO is his passion, his baby - his child. What started as a "cool idea" has now grown into a nationally recognized forum and movement and he will protect it as any parent would. And rightly so!

We've got a wonderful thing hereand I'm proud to be a member, moderator or not!

Now let's get up off the ground, dust ourselves off, shake hands and apologize and get back to work! :)
 

Sheriff

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BobCav wrote:
Gents,please let's not turn this thread into yet another flame war...... Now let's get up off the ground, dust ourselves off, shake hands and apologize and get back to work! :)
Agreed. :monkey
 

deepdiver

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I agree BobCav. Rehashing the details does no good for any member or the forum as a whole.

Commenting briefly about the decision generally I think is appropriate. If Mike and John had wished to just make an announcement without feedback, they could have locked the thread from comments. The fact that they did not tells me that they were welcoming comments on the OP, that all member mods have been removed. The details of what happened regarding a certain mod and opinions on the specific matter or the specific thread are irrelevant.
 

sprat

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, Florida, USA
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This goes back towhen John & Mike were asking about whether mods should have access to personal info (ISP's) and I stated then I was against it and now everyone shouldsee why

sorry that thread had to be locked, I still can't stop laughing at the Miss Cleo line thats a classic. :lol::lol::lol:

As a former contributor from Packing.org and having witnessed its demise I believe this is a great site

and to all we have made great strides lately, keep up the good work

:celebratesprat
 

Sheriff

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sprat wrote:
This goes back towhen John & Mike were asking about whether mods should have access to personal info (ISP's) and I stated then I was against it and now everyone shouldsee why.
Excellent point. I can certainly see why. :shock:
 

caltain

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Sheriff wrote:
sprat wrote:
This goes back to when John & Mike were asking about whether mods should have access to personal info (ISP's) and I stated then I was against it and now everyone should see why.
Excellent point.  I can certainly see why.  :shock:

 

Personal info...well, I can't see any reasonable case for the mods having access to any information not provided by the members on their profile page as the member sees it. No one except the owners should be accessing IPs or tracing them, and then, only when required by the courts or pursuant to a suit they plan to bring or to block bots, spiders, spammers or blocking banned members. Any other use is an invasion of privacy, and could even be considered stalking in some jurisdictions.
 

BobCav

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caltain, please cite the actual laws or cases where having someone's an IP address is an "invasion of privacy"? I've been on the internet since before there was a WWW and it just isn't so.

For the fourteenth quadrillionth time, Mods never had access to ANY personal info and could only see IP addresses and edit/delete posts/threads. Ithelped to identify people with multiple accounts, but that was it. The info was useless beyond that.

And IP addresses are not "private" any more than your street address is private.Itcan all be had from public tax records and realtors do that every single day. And besides, with dynamic IP addresses, it's impossible to tell anything except general location. Anyone that cries that an IP address is "private" has no idea about the true nature of the internet. One post, IM or e-mail and your location is known. Accessing server trace records does require a court order, but not IP addresses.

Knowing your IP is not stalking, but using it for wrong is illegal. Just as knowing your street address itself isn't a crime, but breaking into your house is. Believe it or not, your Social Security is public info and can be legally requested by nearly anyone, just not used for nefarious purposes.

http://www.displayip.net/
 

Doug Huffman

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Since PM feature in this thread and I don't know what capabilities this WoWBB has, ...

I was very disappointed to discover that my disabling PM only prevented my reading whatever others wanted to send to me by the backchannel/privately. Can disabling PM result in disabling sending PM to the user that would opt out of 'private messages' and a warning to that effect to the sender?
 

WARCHILD

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Ok, gotta put my worthless 2 cents in here. I have only been a member of this forum for a short time. I would ask you to consider, we are a family by forum and all are reaching for the same goal. Family squabbles do occur but don't let it damage this forum in a way as to support all the anti's that are sure to cite the internal problems we are trying to settle. I for one made a huge mistake for taking Venator's first comments VERY PERSONALLY -- only to learn he was attempting to set me straight with the correct info. We settled our differences and are now what I would consider very good friends and my mentor for sure. As many have said, let's dust ourselves off and keep going. We still have a lot of work to do and we are making a difference!

Jerry
 

deepdiver

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Newsflash - you leave your IP all across the internet unless you are actively blocking it. Your IP is all over emails, websites you visit, and this is the only internet forum I have been on regularly where the mods do NOT have access to IPs. Unless you are using one of the proxy anonymiser type sites or have your own set up, you are leaving your info all over the place. Depending on the ISP, usually your IP yields no info beyond where, generally, in the world the IP is oringinating and your ISP. It is no more private than your license plate number on your car when you drive down the street daily, and typically not as revealing.

Mods here didn't have as much access as many mods on other forums. I can't believe I would have to point this out on this forum. If you want to be anonymous on the internet, it is YOUR personal responsbility to learn about internet security, buy the appropriate programs, properly configure your computer to be anonymous. It is NOT the job of anyone on any internet forum to protect you from dropping your IP address all over the internet. It is not the job of anyone on any internet forum to protect you from saying something stupid that can then be linked to a user name that is strewn across numerous forums and the "way back machine" to find previously stupid or personal or physically identifying things you posted.

I would have thought that this is the LAST place I would find people whining that someone else isn't protecting their personal information. What friggin' personal information? Oh the information you voluntarily entered on a public website? Your IP address? The only thing personal you were required to enter that is not public is your email address. If you don't have a "throw away" email set up for registering for things like internet forums that you can walk away from if you get hacked or attacked then you have taken zero personal responsibility for protecting yourself on the internet. If you are registering on internet forums and other websites with an email address that you give out to friends and family, that you use for personal business and that has your actual, real personal information entered into a profile attached to that email then you have taken zero personal responsibility for protecting yourself on the internet.

Oh the great irony that on a forum which has as it's roots the idea of personal responsibility and personal freedom, that someone would think that the forum owners should take responsibility for protecting them from standard forum and internet practices after s/he was not aware enough to protect him/herself. :banghead:
 

caltain

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BobCav wrote:
caltain, please cite the actual laws or cases where having someone's an IP address is an "invasion of privacy"? I've been on the internet since before there was a WWW and it just isn't so.
I predate even MILnet and ARPAnet myself. Remember Wangnet? Predate that too. So we're probably even there.

Please reread my post more carefully. I didn't state, or even imply, that having someones IP address is an "invasion of privacy". I stated that attempting to trace it back to an ISP or even an actual address can be considered a stalking activity in some jurisdictions. You stated the same thing, so we agree...

The only point on which we disagree, is that using it for wrong is short of the mark a hair. If your action causes another to reasonably feel fear, the case for stalking could be made, even if your action may have been legal.

Thanks for the quality check, though...:) We all need to have our facts in order before we post.
 

BobCav

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caltain wrote:
BobCav wrote:
caltain, please cite the actual laws or cases where having someone's an IP address is an "invasion of privacy"? I've been on the internet since before there was a WWW and it just isn't so.
I predate even MILnet and ARPAnet myself. Remember Wangnet? Predate that too. So we're probably even there.

Please reread my post more carefully. I didn't state, or even imply, that having someones IP address is an "invasion of privacy". I stated that attempting to trace it back to an ISP or even an actual address can be considered a stalking activity in some jurisdictions. You stated the same thing, so we agree...

The only point on which we disagree, is that using it for wrong is short of the mark a hair. If your action causes another to reasonably feel fear, the case for stalking could be made, even if your action may have been legal.

Thanks for the quality check, though...:) We all need to have our facts in order before we post.
lol...just get frustrated with that old IP address argument, nothing personal. Except to point out that we're both getting old! :D Don't remember WANGNET, but I learned to program on KEYPUNCH CARDS in RPG!
 

Pointman

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In general, and directed at no specific poster:

As a network admin, I trace IPs all the time, even the routes used, and look up who owns the IP. Even worse, I can also log what type of computer you're using, browser, operating system and version, and if I want, I can look at the security you have in place to defend yourself against attacks. I might even look to see if you have any Trojan horses using your system, and if they're attacking one of my systems, I might be tempted to back-door through the Trojan and wipe your disks clean. I say "tempted" because wiping your disks is malicious, but the rest isn't, and is perfectly legal.

John and Mike are running a forum and website that provide us a fantastic service, free for our use. Why people drone about little things is beyond me.

LEO229's actions are just part of the complaints John and Mike have had to endure pertaining to all the moderators, not just 229. On the whole, all of the moderators have done a great job of keeping the board cohesive. John and Mike have lives outside of OpenCarry, and how they put up with all the crap and remain passionate is beyond me. They even find time to help out those in need and appear in frequent media interviews.

I say we should pull together as a community and try to offload John and Mike as much as possible so they can enjoy OpenCarry and open carry, plus their families and private lives as much as possible.

-- Pointman
 

deepdiver

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Pointman wrote:
In general, and directed at no specific poster:

As a network admin, I trace IPs all the time, even the routes used, and look up who owns the IP. Even worse, I can also log what type of computer you're using, browser, operating system and version, and if I want, I can look at the security you have in place to defend yourself against attacks. I might even look to see if you have any Trojan horses using your system, and if they're attacking one of my systems, I might be tempted to back-door through the Trojan and wipe your disks clean. I say "tempted" because wiping your disks is malicious, but the rest isn't, and is perfectly legal.

John and Mike are running a forum and website that provide us a fantastic service, free for our use. Why people drone about little things is beyond me.

LEO229's actions are just part of the complaints John and Mike have had to endure pertaining to all the moderators, not just 229. On the whole, all of the moderators have done a great job of keeping the board cohesive. John and Mike have lives outside of OpenCarry, and how they put up with all the crap and remain passionate is beyond me. They even find time to help out those in need and appear in frequent media interviews.

I say we should pull together as a community and try to offload John and Mike as much as possible so they can enjoy OpenCarry and open carry, plus their families and private lives as much as possible.

-- Pointman
Well said.
 
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