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Thread: Open Carry In MLCC Establishments

  1. #1
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    I am brand new to this forum and OC in general. I never knew you could OC in Michigan. I was in the very first group in Jackson, MIto get a CPL.

    If I am interpreting the laws of OC in Michigan correctly, anyone with a CPL can legally OC in any establishment governed by the Michigan Liquor Control Commission. Is that correct? I own a nightclub here in Jackson and I CC in my bar every night. I'm not against guns or people who legally carry them. However, the thought of people carrying guns in my establishment for all the world to see makes me nervous. Nobody has ever tried to walk in while OC'ing except for the cops making their "liquor inspections". If people can legally OC in my place, do I have the right to not allow them inside or make them put it in their car before coming in? Gun rights are very sacred to me and I hate the idea of me restricting someone elses OC rights. However, I can think of several scenarios where OC in a bar could have devastating consequences. (Drunk guy wants to pick a fight with the "wanna be cop" with a gun.) Anyone?



    Patrick



    The carrying of firearms in public is also restricted by the Michigan Penal Code, 1931 PA 328, MCL 750.1 et seq. Section 234d of the Penal Code identifies certain "gun free zones" similar to those enumerated in section 5o of the Concealed Pistol Licensing Act; within those specified zones, the possession of firearms is strictly prohibited, subject to limited exceptions. Specifically, section 234d(1) of the Penal Code provides that:




    (1) Except as provided in subsection (2) aperson shall not possess a firearm on the premises of any of the following:





    a) A depository financial institution or a subsidiary or affiliate of a depository financial institution.

    (b) A church or other house of religious worship.

    (c) A court.

    (d) A theatre.

    (e) A sports arena.

    (f) A day care center.

    (g) A hospital.

    (h) An establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control act, Act No. 8 of the Public Acts of the Extra Session of 1933, being sections 436.1 to 436.58 of the Michigan Compiled Laws.


    This language is significantly broader than that employed by section 5o of the Concealed Pistol Licensing Act. By its express terms, section 234d(1) of the Penal Code applies to firearms generally, not merely to pistols, and applies to firearms whether concealed or not. Subsection (2) of this provision creates several specific exceptions to this prohibition, two of which are germane to your inquiry. It provides, in pertinent part that:



    (2) This section does not apply to any of the following:



    * * *




    (b) A peace officer.

    (c) A person licensed by this state or another state to carry a concealed weapon.

  2. #2
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    Yes, I believe that you are interpreting the MCL correctly; if you have a CPL you may carry a weapon openly at those sites listed.

    That being said, anyone with a BAC of >.02% and carrying a weapon is in jeopardy of losing his CPL. I find it hard to believe that anyone who took the time, effort and money to obtain a CPL would throw it away just for a coupla beers in your joint.

    However, since your club is private property, you are in control of those who enter.

    You have the right to not allow any firearms on your property, period. Anyone on your property and carrying a firearm is then guilty of trepass. You ask them to leave, they don't, you call the cops.

    You may want to place a sign at the entrance clearly stating your position. Be prepared for a backlash from gun owners as well as having your establishment listed on local web sites that track 'non gun friendly' places.

    IANAL



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    jmlefler wrote:
    Yes, I believe that you are interpreting the MCL correctly; if you have a CPL you may carry a weapon openly at those sites listed.

    That being said, anyone with a BAC of >.00% and carrying a weapon is in jeopardy of losing his CPL. I find it hard to believe that anyone who took the time, effort and money to obtain a CPL would throw it away just for a coupla beers in your joint.

    However, since your club is private property, you are in control of those who enter.

    You have the right to not allow any firearms on your property, period. Anyone on your property and carrying a firearm is then guilty of trepass. You ask them to leave, they don't, you call the cops.

    You may want to place a sign at the entrance clearly stating your position. Be prepared for a backlash from gun owners as well as having your establishment listed on local web sites that track 'non gun friendly' places.

    IANAL

    Fixed

  4. #4
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    Patrick wrote:
    I am brand new to this forum and OC in general. I never knew you could OC in Michigan. I was in the very first group in Jackson, MIto get a CPL.

    If I am interpreting the laws of OC in Michigan correctly, anyone with a CPL can legally OC in any establishment governed by the Michigan Liquor Control Commission. Is that correct? I own a nightclub here in Jackson and I CC in my bar every night. I'm not against guns or people who legally carry them. However, the thought of people carrying guns in my establishment for all the world to see makes me nervous. Nobody has ever tried to walk in while OC'ing except for the cops making their "liquor inspections". If people can legally OC in my place, do I have the right to not allow them inside or make them put it in their car before coming in? Gun rights are very sacred to me and I hate the idea of me restricting someone elses OC rights. However, I can think of several scenarios where OC in a bar could have devastating consequences. (Drunk guy wants to pick a fight with the "wanna be cop" with a gun.) Anyone?



    Patrick



    The carrying of firearms in public is also restricted by the Michigan Penal Code, 1931 PA 328, MCL 750.1 et seq. Section 234d of the Penal Code identifies certain "gun free zones" similar to those enumerated in section 5o of the Concealed Pistol Licensing Act; within those specified zones, the possession of firearms is strictly prohibited, subject to limited exceptions. Specifically, section 234d(1) of the Penal Code provides that:




    (1) Except as provided in subsection (2) aperson shall not possess a firearm on the premises of any of the following:





    a) A depository financial institution or a subsidiary or affiliate of a depository financial institution.

    (b) A church or other house of religious worship.

    (c) A court.

    (d) A theatre.

    (e) A sports arena.

    (f) A day care center.

    (g) A hospital.

    (h) An establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control act, Act No. 8 of the Public Acts of the Extra Session of 1933, being sections 436.1 to 436.58 of the Michigan Compiled Laws.


    This language is significantly broader than that employed by section 5o of the Concealed Pistol Licensing Act. By its express terms, section 234d(1) of the Penal Code applies to firearms generally, not merely to pistols, and applies to firearms whether concealed or not. Subsection (2) of this provision creates several specific exceptions to this prohibition, two of which are germane to your inquiry. It provides, in pertinent part that:



    (2) This section does not apply to any of the following:



    * * *




    (b) A peace officer.

    (c) A person licensed by this state or another state to carry a concealed weapon.
    The CPZ's listed in MCL 28.425o pertain only to CC, therefore, IMO, it's very unlikely that a CC'er will enter your club knowing its primary source of income would be from alcohol. And, by a general observation of the number of members in the Michigan forum, it's also unlikely you will encounter a OC'er at your club.

    jm has it right. You may refuse service and ask/tellthose who OC or CC to leave the building just like the "No Shirt, No Shoes, No Service". They are only in violation of firearm laws if they CC in your club without your permission. You are not required to post a "No Firearms" sign in Michigan. If you tell them to leave and they refuse, they are in violation of trespass.

  5. #5
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    SQLtables wrote:
    jmlefler wrote:
    Yes, I believe that you are interpreting the MCL correctly; if you have a CPL you may carry a weapon openly at those sites listed.

    That being said, anyone with a BAC of >.00% and carrying a weapon is in jeopardy of losing his CPL. I find it hard to believe that anyone who took the time, effort and money to obtain a CPL would throw it away just for a coupla beers in your joint.

    However, since your club is private property, you are in control of those who enter.

    You have the right to not allow any firearms on your property, period. Anyone on your property and carrying a firearm is then guilty of trepass. You ask them to leave, they don't, you call the cops.

    You may want to place a sign at the entrance clearly stating your position. Be prepared for a backlash from gun owners as well as having your establishment listed on local web sites that track 'non gun friendly' places.

    IANAL


    Although I think the 0% BAC is a wise personal policy, I would like to clarify that the law regarding the .02% BAC is for Concealed Carry, not Open Carry. This is not meant to condone the drinking of alcohol while carrying a firearm. I do not drink, so I don't worry about it. Here is the law regarding carrying a firearm in Michigan:

    750.237 Liquor or controlled substance; possession or use of firearm by person under influence; violation;
    penalty; chemical analysis.
    Sec. 237. (1) An individual shall not carry, have in possession or under control, or use in any manner or discharge a firearm under any of the following circumstances:
    (a) The individual is under the influence of alcoholic liquor, a controlled substance, or a combination of alcoholic liquor and a controlled substance.
    (b) The individual has an alcohol content of 0.08 or more grams per 100 milliliters of blood, per 210 liters of breath, or per 67 milliliters of urine.
    (c) Because of the consumption of alcoholic liquor, a controlled substance, or a combination of alcoholic liquor and a controlled substance, the individual’s ability to use a firearm is visibly impaired.
    (2) Except as provided in subsections (3) and (4), an individual who violates subsection (1) is guilty of a misdemeanor punishable by imprisonment for not more than 93 days or a fine of not more than $100.00 for carrying or possessing a firearm, or both, and not more than $500.00 for using or discharging a firearm, or both.
    (3) An individual who violates subsection (1) and causes a serious impairment of a body function of another individual by the discharge or use in any manner of the firearm is guilty of a felony punishable by imprisonment for not more than 5 years or a fine of not less than $1,000.00 or more than $5,000.00, or both. As used in this subsection, “serious impairment of a body function” includes, but is not limited to, 1 or more of the following:
    (a) Loss of a limb or use of a limb.
    (b) Loss of a hand, foot, finger, or thumb or use of a hand, foot, finger, or thumb.
    (c) Loss of an eye or ear or of use of an eye or ear.
    (d) Loss or substantial impairment of a bodily function.
    (e) Serious visible disfigurement.
    (f) A comatose state that lasts for more than 3 days.
    (g) Measurable brain damage or mental impairment.
    (h) A skull fracture or other serious bone fracture.
    (i) Subdural hemorrhage or subdural hematoma.
    (j) Loss of an organ.
    (4) An individual who violates subsection (1) and causes the death of another individual by the discharge or use in any manner of a firearm is guilty of a felony punishable by imprisonment for not more than 15 years or a fine of not less than $2,500.00 or more than $10,000.00, or both.


    Certainly, to be safe, I would suggest no alcohol while carrying, cancealed or otherwise. But, it is good to know that there is a difference when it comes to how one is carrying.


    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

  6. #6
    Regular Member dougwg's Avatar
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    "under the influence" could be .01 if the cop thinks it's "influencing" you.

  7. #7
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    You are correct. (Actually it could be 0%, if the cop thought it was influencing you.) Much like the Motor Vehicle Code pertaining to DUI, the officer is given wide discretion as to what constitutes impairment. Notice also that they make reference to drug use. In a recent Michigan Supreme Court ruling, a driver with a small but detectable amount of THC (marijuana) was convicted of driving under the influence even though the amount present in his system did not visibly affect his ability to drive and, in all probability, was consumed weeks prior to the traffic stop.

    If one looks through the supreme court/ appellate court decisions, it is readily apparent that judges, and juries, give broad discretion to the actions and testimony of a police officer. Additionally, if it does come down to your testimony against the testimony of a police officer, you will lose.

    Therefore, as I clearly emphasized, the consumption of any alcohol is risky at best and the consumption of any medication or illegal drugs is especially risky since many substances take a long time to clear the system.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

  8. #8
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    Patrick wrote:
    I am brand new to this forum and OC in general. I never knew you could OC in Michigan. I was in the very first group in Jackson, MIto get a CPL.

    If I am interpreting the laws of OC in Michigan correctly, anyone with a CPL can legally OC in any establishment governed by the Michigan Liquor Control Commission. Is that correct? I own a nightclub here in Jackson and I CC in my bar every night. I'm not against guns or people who legally carry them. However, the thought of people carrying guns in my establishment for all the world to see makes me nervous. Nobody has ever tried to walk in while OC'ing except for the cops making their "liquor inspections". If people can legally OC in my place, do I have the right to not allow them inside or make them put it in their car before coming in? Gun rights are very sacred to me and I hate the idea of me restricting someone elses OC rights. However, I can think of several scenarios where OC in a bar could have devastating consequences. (Drunk guy wants to pick a fight with the "wanna be cop" with a gun.) Anyone?



    Patrick



    The carrying of firearms in public is also restricted by the Michigan Penal Code, 1931 PA 328, MCL 750.1 et seq. Section 234d of the Penal Code identifies certain "gun free zones" similar to those enumerated in section 5o of the Concealed Pistol Licensing Act; within those specified zones, the possession of firearms is strictly prohibited, subject to limited exceptions. Specifically, section 234d(1) of the Penal Code provides that:




    (1) Except as provided in subsection (2) aperson shall not possess a firearm on the premises of any of the following:





    a) A depository financial institution or a subsidiary or affiliate of a depository financial institution.

    (b) A church or other house of religious worship.

    (c) A court.

    (d) A theatre.

    (e) A sports arena.

    (f) A day care center.

    (g) A hospital.

    (h) An establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control act, Act No. 8 of the Public Acts of the Extra Session of 1933, being sections 436.1 to 436.58 of the Michigan Compiled Laws.


    This language is significantly broader than that employed by section 5o of the Concealed Pistol Licensing Act. By its express terms, section 234d(1) of the Penal Code applies to firearms generally, not merely to pistols, and applies to firearms whether concealed or not. Subsection (2) of this provision creates several specific exceptions to this prohibition, two of which are germane to your inquiry. It provides, in pertinent part that:



    (2) This section does not apply to any of the following:



    * * *




    (b) A peace officer.

    (c) A person licensed by this state or another state to carry a concealed weapon.

    Someone without a CPL can open carry in a restricted place if given permission by the owner or their agent.

    see this exemption:

    Section 234d...

    (2) This section does not apply to any of the following:

    a) A person who owns, or is employed by or contracted by, an entity described in subsection (1) if the possession of that firearm is to provide security services for that entity.

    b) A peace officer.

    c) A person licensed by this state or another state to carry a concealed weapon.

    d) A person who possesses a firearm on the premises of an entity described in subsection (1) if that possession is with the permission of the owner or an agent of the owner of that entity.


    You claim to be all for gun rights and they are sacred to you, yet you don't believe in them enough to allow others the legal right to self defense. I smell a hypocrite. As always you must judge each person individually. If the person is drunk and carrying, refuse service as you would any drunk. But if they OC and are just drinking soft drinks and behaving themselves, what's the harm. It's your call how you handle your place, but you have the opportunity to make a stand for individual gun ownership and the right to self defense.

    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

  9. #9
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    Ok, here's the deal. I own a nightclub that is only open Thursday, Friday, Saturday, and Sunday, from 10PM to 2AM. That's four hours a night, four nights a week. For a total of sixteen hours a week. My bar does not have a kitchen and we don't sell food of any kind at all ever. Most of my customers show up between 12 and 12:30. My DJs only play hip-hop &rap music. I do have several customers who buy alot of very expensive drinks for themselves and their friends and pay with huge knots of money with questionable origins. I don't ask questions. I give alot of respect to my customers and in return I get alot of respect. I rarely have fights or problems. People looking for a place to relax and sip sodas do not come to my place. Most of the time it is not easy to have a conversation because the music is so loud. On the weekends I have three door guys. One checks ID's, another takes the cover charge, and the last one does a quick pat-down looking for concealed weapons and hidden liquor bottles. People used to tell me that they wouldn't come to my place before I did the pat-downs because they didn't feel safe.I only recentlystarted doing them because of all the empty whiskey bottles we were finding at the end of the night. I'm sure all of my security guys will be lining up for the opportunity to bethe one to wake up the guy who's passed out with his head on the table in the corner with a Glock 9mm strapped to his hip and tell him he's too drunk and has to leave.That conversation will be a very interesting one. Have you ever dealt with a drunk person before? I have MANY times. I can say with experience that drunk people do not have very good reasoning skills and nine out of every ten will try to argue with you and insist that they are not drunk.


    It's not hypocrite you're smelling, its fear. All it takes is one gun waved in the air in the direction of a rival gang banger from a person who doesn't care about gun laws or any other law for that matter. Then comes the tidal wave of 500 customers toward the 3 single wide doors that I have located in various parts of the building. If by chance the person who was threatened with a gun pulls his out and legally shoots in self defense, guess what? I'm out of business just like that. Then next week I'm flipping burgers at McDonalds to feed my family waiting for the State of Michigan to call me with an opening so I can get my job back at the prison. That process takes a very long time by the way. And who do you think is gonna be liable if another customer gets hit by a stray bullet? I happen to like my part time, make my own hours, take as many vacations as I want, not EVER have to ask permission for anything job that grosses nearly a million dollars a year. If that means I'm gonna piss off maybe one person out of a million that wants to carry a piece in my bar, I'll take that chance.

    By all means use up YOUR entire life savings and then some. Go buy yourself a nightclub, fill it with a whole bunch of thugs and gang bangers. Let them get all liquored up, then encourage them to openly carry handguns in there. Lets see how long you stay in business. I'm not trying to be an A-hole here but try walking in my shoes for a little while. Think about the sacrifices I've made to get to where I'm at. Then realize how quickly it can all disappear just by one small mistake made by someone else. At this time there is only one person in my bar that carries a gun and that's me. It's gonna stay that way as long as I'm the one in charge. You sir, are entitled to your own opinion and I respect that. If I owned a restaurant, bookstore, coffee shop or any other kind of business other than what I have now. I would gladly allow the open carrying of handguns at any time. In my opinion guns and alcohol don't mix and alcohol is all I serve. Does anybody else in here agree with me or am I just the jerk who's trying to step on everyone elses rights?



    Patrick Colligan



  10. #10
    Regular Member dougwg's Avatar
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    A little explaination goes a LONG way.

    I think when most talk about a "bar" we mean a small local bar that you can have a soda and a burger and play a game of pool or darts.

    One that you can take the wife and kids to to get some great onion rings or fried mushrooms. A place where "everyone knows your name."

    Now in your case, you have a "NIGHT CLUB". I believe you are doing it right, free pat downs for everyone!

    You asked:
    "If people can legally OC in my place, do I have the right to not allow them inside or make them put it in their car before coming in?"
    The answer is YES, you can post a sign and pat people down and DEMAND that no weapons are brought in to the club.

  11. #11
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    dougwg wrote:
    A little explaination goes a LONG way.

    I think when most talk about a "bar" we mean a small local bar that you can have a soda and a burger and play a game of pool or darts.

    One that you can take the wife and kids to to get some great onion rings or fried mushrooms. A place where "everyone knows your name."

    Now in your case, you have a "NIGHT CLUB". I believe you are doing it right, free pat downs for everyone!

    You asked:
    "If people can legally OC in my place, do I have the right to not allow them inside or make them put it in their car before coming in?"
    The answer is YES, you can post a sign and pat people down and DEMAND that no weapons are brought in to the club.


    I don't think he can legally pat anyone down, it's called assault. He can ask to pat them down, but he can't demand it. He can ban weapons but we all know how much crime that prevents. If somebody wants to shoot the place up they will. But that's the point, if you go there and this happens then you are defenseless. You are either for the rightof self defense, regardless of where you, are or you are not.


    I have dealt with more drunks then you have, I'll wager. My father owned and operated three bars in Northern Michigan were I worked as a host/bouncer.I've had weapons pulled on me, been threatened and assaulted so I've been there done that. Listen I respect your right to do anything you want in your place, and wish you the best, just do notsay that you regard gun rights as sacred when in fact you do not. That's all I'm saying.

    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

  12. #12
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    Patrick wrote:
    I do have several customers who buy alot of very expensive drinks for themselves and their friends and pay with huge knots of money with questionable origins. I don't ask questions.
    Go buy yourself a nightclub, fill it with a whole bunch of thugs and gang bangers. Let them get all liquored up,
    I don't think I'd like to swim with those fishes.

    Is it actually worth it to make money off of and host these individuals? Personally, that's not a position I'd like to be in.



  13. #13
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    Actually I prefer the crowd I have over any other group of people. They are way more respectful and friendly to me and my staff. They genuinely appreciate what we do for them because most places do everything they can to avoid that crowd because they are afraid. I was a corrections officer here in Jackson for almost five years before I opened my nightclub. My business partner was a trooper for the Michigan State Police for eight years before he quit to buy the club with me. We don't scare easily. It took a while before our current crowd would even come in because we were "the police" and they were scared of us. As far as the money goes. On most Friday and Saturday nights we average a thousand dollars or more an hour in sales. Keep in mind most of my customers don't even walk in until after midnight. There is a club in Lansing that is just recently trying to cater to that crowd right now because they see how we have been doing it. I was there Wednesday night for a Snoop Dog afterparty and the manager found out who I was and gave me a personal tour of her place. She told me that she had been to my club several times and really liked it.



    Patrick

  14. #14
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    Patrick wrote:
    Ok, here's the deal. I own a nightclub that is only open Thursday, Friday, Saturday, and Sunday, from 10PM to 2AM. That's four hours a night, four nights a week. For a total of sixteen hours a week. My bar does not have a kitchen and we don't sell food of any kind at all ever. Most of my customers show up between 12 and 12:30. My DJs only play hip-hop &rap music. I do have several customers who buy alot of very expensive drinks for themselves and their friends and pay with huge knots of money with questionable origins. I don't ask questions. I give alot of respect to my customers and in return I get alot of respect. I rarely have fights or problems. People looking for a place to relax and sip sodas do not come to my place. Most of the time it is not easy to have a conversation because the music is so loud. On the weekends I have three door guys. One checks ID's, another takes the cover charge, and the last one does a quick pat-down looking for concealed weapons and hidden liquor bottles. People used to tell me that they wouldn't come to my place before I did the pat-downs because they didn't feel safe.I only recentlystarted doing them because of all the empty whiskey bottles we were finding at the end of the night. I'm sure all of my security guys will be lining up for the opportunity to bethe one to wake up the guy who's passed out with his head on the table in the corner with a Glock 9mm strapped to his hip and tell him he's too drunk and has to leave.That conversation will be a very interesting one. Have you ever dealt with a drunk person before? I have MANY times. I can say with experience that drunk people do not have very good reasoning skills and nine out of every ten will try to argue with you and insist that they are not drunk.


    It's not hypocrite you're smelling, its fear. All it takes is one gun waved in the air in the direction of a rival gang banger from a person who doesn't care about gun laws or any other law for that matter. Then comes the tidal wave of 500 customers toward the 3 single wide doors that I have located in various parts of the building. If by chance the person who was threatened with a gun pulls his out and legally shoots in self defense, guess what? I'm out of business just like that. Then next week I'm flipping burgers at McDonalds to feed my family waiting for the State of Michigan to call me with an opening so I can get my job back at the prison. That process takes a very long time by the way. And who do you think is gonna be liable if another customer gets hit by a stray bullet? I happen to like my part time, make my own hours, take as many vacations as I want, not EVER have to ask permission for anything job that grosses nearly a million dollars a year. If that means I'm gonna piss off maybe one person out of a million that wants to carry a piece in my bar, I'll take that chance.

    By all means use up YOUR entire life savings and then some. Go buy yourself a nightclub, fill it with a whole bunch of thugs and gang bangers. Let them get all liquored up, then encourage them to openly carry handguns in there. Lets see how long you stay in business. I'm not trying to be an A-hole here but try walking in my shoes for a little while. Think about the sacrifices I've made to get to where I'm at. Then realize how quickly it can all disappear just by one small mistake made by someone else. At this time there is only one person in my bar that carries a gun and that's me. It's gonna stay that way as long as I'm the one in charge. You sir, are entitled to your own opinion and I respect that. If I owned a restaurant, bookstore, coffee shop or any other kind of business other than what I have now. I would gladly allow the open carrying of handguns at any time. In my opinion guns and alcohol don't mix and alcohol is all I serve. Does anybody else in here agree with me or am I just the jerk who's trying to step on everyone elses rights?



    Patrick Colligan



    Patrick, where in this thread does it indicate that we were portraying youto bean a-hole? I see only posts citing/mentioning laws pertaining to OC and CC while frequenting a "bar" (that would be yours). For example, I will re-post my reponse to you:

    The CPZ's listed in MCL 28.425o pertain only to CC, therefore, IMO, it's very unlikely that a CC'er will enter your club knowing its primary source of income would be from alcohol. And, by a general observation of the number of members in the Michigan forum, it's also unlikely you will encounter a OC'er at your club.

    jm has it right. You may refuse service and ask/tellthose who OC or CC to leave the building just like the "No Shirt, No Shoes, No Service". They are only in violation of firearm laws if they CC in your club without your permission.
    You are not required to post a "No Firearms" sign in Michigan. If you tell them to leave and they refuse, they are in violation of trespass.





  15. #15
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    I never said anyone called me an a-hole. I just wanted everyone to know that I was not trying to be an a-hole in response to Venator when I suggested he go buy a nightclub and encourage people to OC in there. Just wanted him to get a better feel for my situation.



    Patrick

  16. #16
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    Patrick wrote:
    I never said anyone called me an a-hole. I just wanted everyone to know that I was not trying to be an a-hole in response to Vernator when I suggested he go buy a nightclub and encourage people to OC in there. Just wanted him to get a better feel for my situation.



    Patrick
    OK, understood. Now, are you planning on staying around hereat OCDO for awhile? If so, Kimberguy would like to organize an OC event in/near the Jackson area in the near future (see thread).

    ETA: The thread. http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum30/11799-7.html

  17. #17
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    Yep, I'm gonna be here for the long haul. Does Kimberguy want to have a picnic or something in Jackson? I'll be there for that for sure. I've never actually OC'ed before. I always CC. One of these days I'll get the nerves up to do it. I'm kind of a quiet guy and I keep to myself. I hate conflict especially with LEO's seein how my wife is a District Court Probation Officer here in Jackson County not to mention the 2007 Employee of The Year. The judges know me by name. Could be a sticky situation for her at work if ya know what I mean.



    Patrick

  18. #18
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    Patrick wrote:
    Yep, I'm gonna be here for the long haul. Does Kimberguy want to have a picnic or something in Jackson? I'll be there for that for sure. I've never actually OC'ed before. I always CC. One of these days I'll get the nerves up to do it. I'm kind of a quiet guy and I keep to myself. I hate conflict especially with LEO's seein how my wife is a District Court Probation Officer here in Jackson County not to mention the 2007 Employee of The Year. The judges know me by name. Could be a sticky situation for her at work if ya know what I mean.



    Patrick
    Give OC a try, you will find it liberating and you will be doing something positive for our sacred gun rights. We need to all come out of the closet on this, show the world that there are a lot of people that carry guns for personal protection. See are new info thread at the top of the sticky list, we have our goals and some of our methods on obtaining same.
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

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