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Are you happy with the Heller ruling

Are you happy with the heller ruling

  • Jumping for Joy

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Yes, but wish they had gone furthur

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • A little disappointed

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Very disappointed

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • What were they thinking?

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Blood will run in the streets now.

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    0

Thndr

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I agree with another post in a different thread that the 4 of the 5 went as far as they could with the matter and still have Kennedy swing the vote.

But I think most supporters will say that they wish more was done/said.
 

UTOC-45-44

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PT111 wrote:
I predicted that no one would be completely happy with it so how about it, are you happy or disappointed?

I can't vote yet due the fact that I haven't read it all.

But so far I am jumping for joy due the fact that we (as we ALL knew from the start ) have the INDIVIDUAL right to Bear Arms. I still need to read the details, "[suB][suP] the small[/suP][/suB]" print, or "in between the lines" to be able to get a complete understanding of what is going on

But an AWESOME ruling

TJ
 

Flintlock

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Overall, it is about what I, and would think many others expected. There is some language that is concerning and I really don't see how licensing and registering a right is constitutional but there were also some lines added that I didn't expect and thatI do like.
 

bobernet

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I've already said this elsewhere, so I'll just quote here. I'm disappointed. Scalia sold us down the river on all but the most minimal "right." I realize the realities of getting a majority opinion, and narrow rulings, etc. Never the less, he could have just been silent rather than totally demolishing the true purpose of the 2nd amendment - namely, the ability of "the people" to bear arms in defense of themselves and against a tyrannical government.

This may still leave the door open to another AWB.

Scalia says:
Quote: “in common use at the time” finds support in the historical tradition of prohibiting the carrying of dangerous and unusual weapons.
This is very similar to Obama-speak about particularly "dangerous" weapons. The antis have largely won the fight in the court of public opinion on portraying civilian versions of AKs and ARs as especially dangerous or deadly.

A major issue is going to be the word "and." Is "dangerous and unusual" describing a single type of arm that is both dangerous and unusual, or is it two classes of arms - those that are "dangerous" and also those that are "unusual."

The immediate fight, as I see it, is going to be about defense in the home, versus carrying other places (in public) for defense. I wish they would not have been so pointed about the "in the home" language. It certainly permits a non-exclusive reading, but expect it to get twisted by the gun banners and lower courts like San Francisco.

The second part is going to be about what qualifies as legitimate "self-defense" purposes. Do you really need more than 10 rounds for "self-defense" or are higher capacity magazines superfluous to a civilian? etc, etc

By totally disconnecting the second amendment's operative clause from it's core purpose of resisting the government and standing armies to preserve individual (and collective) liberty, Scalia has turned this into a Zumbo gun right. Hunters and home defense are fine; battle rifles, high (normal) capacity magazines, EBRs and full autos are all up for grabs.

Also, regarding "common" ...

Quote: The narrowness of this ruling means we will have to keep up the pressure on the political front. If we want nation-wide concealed carry and an end to the machine gun ban, we will have to continue to fight for them.
Actually, Scalia sold us down the river on NFA items. There's almost zero chance of getting rid of the machine gun registration ban now. It also leaves open the ability for Congress to ban *anything* new as long as they do it early enough that the guns don't become "common."

Kiss your 50 cals goodbye. Anyone who doesn't own or have a deposit down on a 50 should probably get one yesterday.

The only people this really buys anything for (likely) are the states with open-carry bans, and places like NY and Chicago that effectively ban guns through draconian registration ordinances.
 

tattedupboy

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Flintlock wrote:
Overall, it is about what I, and would think many others expected. There is some language that is concerning and I really don't see how licensing and registering a right is constitutional but there were also some lines added that I didn't expect and thatI do like.
The fact that the court left intact the licensing and registration requirement concerns me. In light of this ruling, this means that the District can make the licensing and registration requirements so stringent (ie., increasing licensing and registration fees by10,000%)that the effect would me much the same as it was prior to the gun ban being struck down.
 

hsmith

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tattedupboy wrote:
Flintlock wrote:
Overall, it is about what I, and would think many others expected. There is some language that is concerning and I really don't see how licensing and registering a right is constitutional but there were also some lines added that I didn't expect and thatI do like.
The fact that the court left intact the licensing and registration requirement concerns me. In light of this ruling, this means that the District can make the licensing and registration requirements so stringent (ie., increasing licensing and registration fees by10,000%)that the effect would me much the same as it was prior to the gun ban being struck down.
I think think that it would violate their ruling. It would be like poll taxes, they wouldn't muster constitutional strength.

I don't see the registration and licensing as an issue (Yes, I don't like them) in DC. They will still be required to give you a license, as this was what the case centered around - Heller applied for a license and was denied.
 

PT111

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hsmith wrote:
tattedupboy wrote:
Flintlock wrote:
Overall, it is about what I, and would think many others expected. There is some language that is concerning and I really don't see how licensing and registering a right is constitutional but there were also some lines added that I didn't expect and thatI do like.
The fact that the court left intact the licensing and registration requirement concerns me. In light of this ruling, this means that the District can make the licensing and registration requirements so stringent (ie., increasing licensing and registration fees by10,000%)that the effect would me much the same as it was prior to the gun ban being struck down.
I think think that it would violate their ruling. It would be like poll taxes, they wouldn't muster constitutional strength.

I don't see the registration and licensing as an issue (Yes, I don't like them) in DC. They will still be required to give you a license, as this was what the case centered around - Heller applied for a license and was denied.
You may be correct especially in DC but it probably won't stop them from trying along with a one year wait. :cool:
 

Phoenixphire

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bobernet wrote:
I've already said this elsewhere, so I'll just quote here. I'm disappointed. Scalia sold us down the river on all but the most minimal "right." I realize the realities of getting a majority opinion, and narrow rulings, etc. Never the less, he could have just been silent rather than totally demolishing the true purpose of the 2nd amendment - namely, the ability of "the people" to bear arms in defense of themselves and against a tyrannical government.
Well, you state that you understand the realities of narrow rulings, then proceed to complain about this being a narrow ruling.

In legal proceedings, there is what is known as the "scope of inquiry". This basically means the topic being handled.

Judges should not exceed the scope of the inquiry. In this case, the matter was whether a law preventing an individual from having a "ready" firearm in his home was within the limitations of the Second Amendment to the Constitution.

The Court held that an individual ("The People") has a specific right to own, load, and have ready a firearm in his home ("keep and bear arms").

That was the scope of the case at hand, and that was what was ruled on.

The Court did not address licensing, registration, carry, or any other issue, as that was not within the scope of inquiry.

However, if you read "between the lines" and, on some issues, the lines themselves, the Court did "open the door" to additional cases.

From the Majority Opinion:

JUSTICE BREYER chides us for leaving so many applications
of the right to keep and bear arms in doubt, and for
not providing extensive historical justification for those
regulations of the right that we describe as permissible.
See post, at 42–43. But since this case represents this
Court’s first in-depth examination of the Second Amendment,
one should not expect it to clarify the entire field,
any more than Reynolds v. United States, 98 U. S. 145
(1879), our first in-depth Free Exercise Clause case, left
that area in a state of utter certainty. And there will be
time enough to expound upon the historical justifications
for the exceptions we have mentioned if and when those
exceptions come before us.


Also, the Court refrained from any ruling on registration and licensing, specifically because it was not in the scope:

Respondent conceded at oral argument that he does
not “have a problem with . . . licensing” and that the District’s
law is permissible so long as it is “not enforced in an
arbitrary and capricious manner.” Tr. of Oral Arg. 74–75.
We therefore assume that petitioners’ issuance of a license
will satisfy respondent’s prayer for relief and do not address
the licensing requirement.

The language of that statement makes me believe that Justice Scalia would personally liked to address that issue, and most like not in favor of licensing, but since it was not within the scope of inquiry, it was not the time and place to address it.
 

Legba

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As with any legal case, I am not completely satisfied. I though it remarkable that they identified "unusual" weapons as possible problems as far as gun rights are concerned (vis Miller). The whole idea of a "curios and relics" federal firearms license is to preserve the historical legacy of such curio (now uncommon) -mostly military and not "sporting" - guns. I don't think they'll start revoking collector's licenses on the strength of this ruling, butthe rule of unintended consequences always applies.

-ljp
 

PT111

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"I am profoundly disappointed in Justice Roberts and Justice Alito, both of whom assured us of their respect for precedent. With this decision, 70 years of precedent has gone out the window. And I believe the people of this great country will be less safe because of it."
- Sen. Dianne Feinstein, D-Calif.
"Today, President Bush's radical Supreme Court justices put rigid ideology ahead of the safety of communities in New Jersey and across the country. This decision illustrates why I have strongly opposed extremist judicial nominees and will continue to do so in the future."
- Sen. Frank Lautenberg, D-N.J.
"Today's ruling, the first clear statement on this issue in 127 years, will provide much-needed guidance to local jurisdictions across the country."
- Sen. Barack Obama, D-Ill.
"This ruling does not mark the end of our struggle against those who seek to limit the rights of law-abiding citizens. We must always remain vigilant in defense of our freedoms."
- Sen. John McCain, R-Ariz.
"Eighty people a day die at the hands of guns. We have got to stop that. The court clearly ruled that reasonable regulations are permitted under that decision."
- New York City Mayor Michael Bloomberg
Seems not everyone is happy.
 

bobernet

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Phoenixphire wrote:
bobernet wrote:
I've already said this elsewhere, so I'll just quote here. I'm disappointed. Scalia sold us down the river on all but the most minimal "right." I realize the realities of getting a majority opinion, and narrow rulings, etc. Never the less, he could have just been silent rather than totally demolishing the true purpose of the 2nd amendment - namely, the ability of "the people" to bear arms in defense of themselves and against a tyrannical government.
Well, you state that you understand the realities of narrow rulings, then proceed to complain about this being a narrow ruling.

In legal proceedings, there is what is known as the "scope of inquiry". This basically means the topic being handled.

No, I didn't complain about it being a narrow ruling. I complained about Scalia gutting the amendment of it's primary purpose. I complained about Scalia *not* being narrow and instead dealing with Class III items. I complained about Scalia turning "keep and bear arms shall not be infringed" into "hunting and self-defense shall not be infringed." And I complained about Scalia explicitly allow for the future ban of any weapons not considered "common."

Where does the 2A say, "the right to keep and bear arms for sporting purposes and self-defense, that are not particularly dangerous or unusual, shall not be infringed?"

The amendment is about (at minimum, not exclusively) the right to own military-grade weapons to resist a tyrannical government and their standing army. That core meaning is now gone with the stroke of a pen.
 

Walleye

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The part that scares me is how does one define a 'dangerous' firearm? It's quite possible for someone to simply claim all firearms are 'dangerous' and thus it's legal to ban them under this ruling.

I'd be more impressed if they'd said that "We believe the Constitution to be very clear on this issue: the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. As such, it is our ruling that any form of regulation or restriction of firearms is unconstitutional."

As it stands, it feels like a ruling that could easily give the antis plenty of fodder.
 

DopaVash

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Walleye wrote:
The part that scares me is how does one define a 'dangerous' firearm? It's quite possible for someone to simply claim all firearms are 'dangerous' and thus it's legal to ban them under this ruling.

I'd be more impressed if they'd said that "We believe the Constitution to be very clear on this issue: the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. As such, it is our ruling that any form of regulation or restriction of firearms is unconstitutional."

As it stands, it feels like a ruling that could easily give the antis plenty of fodder.

Yeah, I think thats pretty much what all of us would like to see, but, they probably would have lost the swing vote and thus lost the Majority. I haven't read the dissent yet but I'm interested to see how people thought this wasn't an individual right.
 

Phoenixphire

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Walleye wrote:
The part that scares me is how does one define a 'dangerous' firearm? It's quite possible for someone to simply claim all firearms are 'dangerous' and thus it's legal to ban them under this ruling.

I'd be more impressed if they'd said that "We believe the Constitution to be very clear on this issue: the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. As such, it is our ruling that any form of regulation or restriction of firearms is unconstitutional."

As it stands, it feels like a ruling that could easily give the antis plenty of fodder.

Well, there is a problem with that position...

If the court held that any form of regulation of arms was unconstitutional, then that means that Muhammed Aknar the Friendly Islamic Jihadist would be permitted to own and discharge a tactical nuclear weapon at will, and it would be perfectly legal to do so.

Extreme? Yes. But so is the position that the 1st Amendment, in stating "Congress shall make no law.... abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press...", makes it unconstitutional to prevent one form selling state secrets, or to publish them in a public forum.

The Constitution is not an "absolutist" document, meaning that every single word is to be taken literally. Instead, it lays out the ideas of a free and just nation, tempered by prudence and common sense.

There are extremes that need to be limited. But these limitations should only take place when there is a clear, convincing, and substantiated argument that the limitation serves a significant purpose.

Private individuals should not own nuclear weapons, and fully automatic rifles should require a level of training to be owned. There are reasonable and compelling arguments for these positions, due to the level of force and destruction that these weapons have.

Saying that a private citizen should not own a firearm, because law-abiding citizens can't be trusted, is a ridiculous position, without any evidence to support it, and mountains of evidence to the contrary.
 

shamalama

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I AM NOT A LAWYER ...

Still reading the decision ... but think the decision was just about as good as could be expected. Remember that the entire case revolved around keeping a functional gun in the home, and that it never considered open/concealed public carry.

"The Second Amendment protects an individual right to possess a firearm unconnected with service in a militia, and to use that arm for traditionally lawful purposes, such as self-defense within the home." That word UNCONNECTED is of extreme value to us. Also A MILITIA, and not THE MILITIA, also erasing any requirement of any military/police service. Very valuable.

"Miller’s holding that the sorts of weapons protected are those “in common use at the time” finds support in the historical tradition of prohibiting the carrying of dangerous and unusual weapons." Watch for this one. While SCOTUS wasn't going to allow free ownership of rocket launchers by just anyone, this could open back up some sort of SEMIAUTOMATIC or LARGE CAPACITY MAGAZINE issues.

"The handgun ban and the trigger-lock requirement (as applied to self-defense) violate the Second Amendment ... Similarly, the requirement that any lawful firearm in the home be disassembled or bound by a trigger lock makes it impossible for citizens to use arms for the core lawful purpose of self-defense and is hence unconstitutional." Big win here. We all understand that trying to put together a long gun, or trying to find the key to the pistol trigger lock, will do nothing but get us killed during a home invasion. SCOTUS affirmed this. The "un-functioning" of our firearms demanded of us by the government is not Constitutional.

What percentage of the ensuing media coverage will consist of stories reporting it as a victory for the individual rights of all American citizens, as opposed to describing it as a victory the Gun Lobby, the Republican party, and/or right-wing militia groups?

Still and all, I am well-pleased with this decision from the nation’s highest court. Now maybe the local tin-horn dictators (commonly known as mayors and councilpersons) will back off and allow law-abiding citizens to defend themselves from the plague of crime that they have helped empower.
 

RedKnightt

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bobernet wrote:
<snipped for brevity>
The amendment is about (at minimum, not exclusively) the right to own military-grade weapons to resist a tyrannical government and their standing army. That core meaning is now gone with the stroke of a pen.

I can see where you get this from just the Supreme Court ruling, but don't forget that this ruling not only expresses SCOTUS' opinion, but also:

"We affirm the judgment of the Court of Appeals.", which is the last line in the opinion.

The Court of Appeals wrote:

" To summarize, we conclude that the Second Amendment
protects an individual right to keep and bear arms. That right
existed prior to the formation of the new government under the
Constitution and was premised on the private use of arms for
activities such as hunting and self-defense, the latter being
understood as resistance to either private lawlessness or the
depredations of a tyrannical government
(or a threat from
abroad).
(bold emphasis mine)

http://pacer.cadc.uscourts.gov/docs/common/opinions/200703/04-7041a.pdf

I think a lot of the framers' original intention is retained in that particular paragraph.

Just remember this is only my opinion, and worth every dollar you paid for it :)

--RedKnightt--

Zombie Squad has it right: "We hold fast to the belief that if you are prepared for a scenario where the walking corpses of your family and neighbors are trying to eat you alive, you will be prepared for almost anything."

<edited to add Court of Appeals link>
 

bobernet

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Phoenixphire wrote:
Walleye wrote:
I'd be more impressed if they'd said that "We believe the Constitution to be very clear on this issue: the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

Saying that a private citizen should not own a fully automatic firearm, because law-abiding citizens can't be trusted, is a ridiculous position, without any evidence to support it, and mountains of evidence to the contrary.
Fixed it for ya. Prior to the government artificially affecting the market, and subsequently banning new manufacture, lots of people owned full autos. The also owned lots of imported foreign military rifles.

Too bad the court doesn't care to protect all firearms.

P.S. The nuclear bomb is a strawman.
 

Phoenixphire

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Explain the term "strawman", if you would, please?

You notice that I did not state the individuals should not be permitted to own fully automatic firearms.

I do have the opinion that owning a fully automatic rifle should have some a strong training requirement, where owning a semi-automatic handgun or long gun should have no requirement, except maybe a strong urging from retailer to purchaser to get training.


But the main point of my post was that to state that ANY regulation is "bad", is flawed. I think that regulations should be enacted only when a strong and compelling argument, based on solid evidence, can be made for it. In other words, very rare.
 
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