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Thread: Whats your BUG, and what is it Bugging :)

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    Hi folks, New To the forum(But not to many other forums). Was curious what your BUG choices were, for those that choose to have a NY reload.



    For my its a lws32 Seecamp in dress clothes (Kahr MK-9 main) CC combo

    Charter 44 Bulldogcasual (1911 Main) OC combo.







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    well, once my permit arrives, I plan on carrying my Hi point C9 as my primary, with a phoenix arms HP22 as my backup, at least for now.

    eventually, I would like to upgrade my defensive package to a 1911 clone as my primary, with a Keltec P3AT as my Bug...

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    Couple quotes --

    From one of my CCW instructors: "It's not a war zone. You're not an LEO."

    His point was/is that there's little real need to arm yourself to the teeth. Your chances of getting into a firefight where you might need extra mags, extra ammo, and a back up gun are remote. REMOTE, remote. 60 yrs now and I've never been in a firefight except when I was in the military and drawing hazardous duty pay.

    From the Oregon State Police: "The sidearm is only to cover my ass until I can get to the long-gun in the squad car."

    Several self-defense instructors recommend that for serious self-defense, a long-gun is much preferable to a handgun.

    From a local Sheriff: "If you're going into places with a gun where you wouldn't go without one, you're going to the wrong places."

    12 Gauge, Rem. 870, extended mag tube . . . since you ask . . .










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    SCOTUS 07-290 wrote:
    From a local Sheriff: "If you're going into places with a gun where you wouldn't go without one, you're going to the wrong places."

    12 Gauge, Rem. 870, extended mag tube . . . since you ask . . .
    just to let you know, I hate going ANYWHERE without a gun anymore, which is why I have been trying so hard to get my HCP.
    His point was/is that there's little real need to arm yourself to the teeth. Your chances of getting into a firefight where you might need extra mags, extra ammo, and a back up gun are remote. REMOTE, remote

    even if the chances are remote, that means that there is still a chance. take a quick poll of the carriers in here who have actually had to use their primary weapons. probably only a small minority, and yet so many people still do carry.

    Iwould personally rather carry more ammo than I need, than to be in a situationwhere I needed more ammo...

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    I see nothing useful about that statement about "not going somewhere if you think you need a gun," for quite a few reasons honestly.


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    I find an 870 does not conceal overly well and its a wee bit heavy to carry on a day to day basis.

    I know I am not a LEO. Where I live they are a phone call and a half hour away. I can not reasonably rely on them to be around constantly.Why should I be less equipped than they are?



    I drive my car every day with the hope that the air bags will never be used, there is a spare tire in the trunk in the event that I run over a nail.



    2 reasons for a BUG in my book.



    1- Springs break and parts go. I have had VCRs eat tapes, the sunroof on my car has stuck open, and I have broken a key off in a lock. It is the nature of mechanical devices. There are times when they fail and racking a slide does not cure the problem.



    2- I can afford a second firearm. A really nice one. Is there any reason not to? I was not using that pocket for anything. It is not going to shoot itself any more likely than my primary carry. A BUG does not inconvience me any more than a can of Flat Fix in the trunk of my Toyota.

    If you followed the opinion of your local sheriff, why carry a firearm ever? If you can justify 1, a second one does not make any less sense.







    SCOTUS 07-290 wrote:
    Couple quotes --

    From one of my CCW instructors: "It's not a war zone. You're not an LEO."

    His point was/is that there's little real need to arm yourself to the teeth. Your chances of getting into a firefight where you might need extra mags, extra ammo, and a back up gun are remote. REMOTE, remote. 60 yrs now and I've never been in a firefight except when I was in the military and drawing hazardous duty pay.

    From the Oregon State Police: "The sidearm is only to cover my ass until I can get to the long-gun in the squad car."

    Several self-defense instructors recommend that for serious self-defense, a long-gun is much preferable to a handgun.

    From a local Sheriff: "If you're going into places with a gun where you wouldn't go without one, you're going to the wrong places."

    12 Gauge, Rem. 870, extended mag tube . . . since you ask . . .









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    I carry a stainless SiG P229 on my hip and a Glock 27 concealed in the back. 1 backup mag for each as well.

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    I don't carry a BUG typically, but then I live in a somewhat rural, pretty low crime area. I carried my Raven P25 as a BUG one time when I had to go into a rather unsavory area for business. If I lived in a bad part of town or spend a lot of time in high risk areas I might be inclined to carry a BUG regularly and put up with the extra weight and hassle.
    Bob Owens @ Bearing Arms (paraphrased): "These people aren't against violence; they're very much in favor of violence. They're against armed resistance."

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    SCOTUS 07-290 wrote:

    From one of my CCW instructors: "It's not a war zone. You're not an LEO."

    His point was/is that there's little real need to arm yourself to the teeth. Your chances of getting into a firefight where you might need extra mags, extra ammo, and a back up gun are remote. REMOTE, remote. 60 yrs now and I've never been in a firefight except when I was in the military and drawing hazardous duty pay.


    The chances of you being in a firefight by itself are incredibly remote. On the logic that you should never prepare for remote situations, why not never carry a gun, get rid of the fire extinguisher, drop your insurance companies, etc?

    Law Enforcement also aren't in a war zone. Why do they need magazines or backup guns? Also, they usually travel in groups, and you'll usually be alone. Why does a police officer in a police station full of cops have more than one magazine with him? Not all cops are SWAT and not all routinely end up in extended shootouts, but probably almost all carry an extra mag. Probably the average armed security guard carries a spare mag even.

    As a side note, the extra ammunition itself is not the only reason to extra. If your gun stops working a backup gun can be deployed.

    ====================

    On a somewhat lighter note...
    If you're going to carry 2 pounds of steel anyway, its hardly any more effort to bring along a spare mag so even if you don't need it ever, you might as well bring it along for the fun of it. Plus, if all your weight is on one side, won't you feel unsymetrical? A perfect reason to balance the weight by putting an identical gun on the other side. Or what if you decide on the spur of the moment to visit the shooting range? It wouldn't be much fun if you only had 7 rounds.


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    At (where is your gun when its not on your hip thread... link at bottom)

    SCOTUS 07-290wrote:


    Ayoob and others all stress that your personal defense strategy is unique, and that it should consist of multiple strategies and fail-safe options.





    Couldn't that include extra magazines and a backup gun?




    http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum62/12380-2.html


    ---


    I typically do not carry a backup and have a revolver with just the ammo in the cylinder, but if I carried a semi-auto I would have an extra mag andif I could I would have a backup.


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    S&W 642 in a weakside pocket - no reload.

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    Regular Member Gunslinger's Avatar
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    I can't imagine a situation where I would need a bug, and not that many where I need extra mags, but if it did happen: my SIG GSR rail on my belt and my Hi-Power in my gun-fanny pack--along with two extra mags for each. 230gr +P HSTs in the SIG, and 124gr +P+ HSTs in the Browning. And my SEAL knife on the other side of my belt.
    "For any man who sheds his blood with me this day shall be my brother...And gentlemen now abed shall think themselves accursed, they were not here, and hold their manhoods cheap whilst any speaks who fought with us on Crispin's day." Henry V

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    Smith & Wesson. J-frame 357 Mag

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    Primary is one of these:

    Kimber 5" Stainless TLE w/lasergrips (Win. Ranger 230gr+P)-or- Sig P229R DAK .40 (Gold Dot 180gr) -or- Kahr K9 stainless w/lasergrips (Fed. HST 147gr)

    BUG is one of these:

    Kahr P9 'Covert' (Fed. HST 147gr) -or- Ruger LCP .380(Win. Ranger 95gr) -or- Keltec P3AT (Corbon 90gr JHP)

    On occasion, I'll carry the K9 as a bug to the Kimber or Sig, and the BUG is usually carried on my left ankle. If I'm wearing shorts, one of the .380's is in the left front pocket. Primary is always carried strongside @ 3 o'clock OWB or IWB, depending on how I feel that day. When carrying a single stack primary (1911 or Kahr) I'll usually have a single reload for that gun, and the bug is carried w/out any reloads for it (unless I'm carrying both my Kahr's, which allows that single reload mag to work in either gun, and that's handy!).

    Two is one, and one is none. My way of thinking, is that I'll most likely not need a second weapon, as I'm not fighting WWIII, but I do like the ability to arm another person around me, who know how to use a gun, but do not carry (many of my friends match this description).

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    "I know I am not a LEO. Where I live they are a phone call and a half hour away. I can not reasonably rely on them to be around constantly.Why should I be less equipped than they are?"

    -- Because you're not a sworn officer charged with responding to armed robbery in process, stopping armed assault, responding a hostage situation with an armed assailant. It's not your job to be equipped to manage such situations.

    To put it a bit more directly:

    You're not a member of the armed forces. You don't need an armored personel carrier, a 50 cal machine gun, artillery and air support.

    You're not in the business of engaging in armed confrontation. You don't need to be equipped as if you're in the business of pro-actively engaging in armed confrontation.

    I could saunter around town with my three Uzis, AK, Garand, 2 1911's, XD, J-Frame, N-Frame, three scoped centerfire rifles, two lever action carbines, four shotguns, two Mausers, a Moisin, black powder muskets, K-Bar, Benchmade, Cold Steel, Kershaw, CRKT, Case, bayonets, an elephant gun, handcuffs, mace, and a police band radio . . .
    I'd be "equipped" but I think probably the townsfolk would point and giggle . . . :celebrate





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    You're not a member of the armed forces. You don't need an armored personel carrier, a 50 cal machine gun, artillery and air support.
    Nobody here claims to need this.

    You're not in the business of engaging in armed confrontation. You don't need to be equipped as if you're in the business of pro-actively engaging in armed confrontation.
    That's your opinion and I certainly hope you don't think we should be legislated out of having the ability to own a weapon that you've defined as "offensive only." What, in your infinite knowledge and ability to tell what everyone in here will and wont need during their lifetime, makes a firearm "offensive only?"

    I could saunter around town with my three Uzis, AK, Garand, 2 1911's, XD, J-Frame, N-Frame, three scoped centerfire rifles, two lever action carbines, four shotguns, two Mausers, a Moisin, black powder muskets, K-Bar, Benchmade, Cold Steel, Kershaw, CRKT, Case, bayonets, an elephant gun, handcuffs, mace, and a police band radio . . .
    I don't know where you'd fit all of those on your person. We're talking about two or possibly three handguns, they are all sidearms. No sidearm is particularly great for armed conflict, everyone here would probably be talking about long guns if this were an offensive operation. Since it's defensive and we're actually going to have to carry this stuff all day, the discussion is handguns, small ones at that! It's pretty apparent that you think only police should truly be well armed. I guess we "non-police" should only be carrying around a single shot pistol (Well, preferably no pistol at all, right?) because that's all we need according to you.

    I'd be "equipped" but I think probably the townsfolk would point and giggle . . .
    Honestly, you would probably end up talking to a few police. Nobody would giggle.

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    You're not in the business of engaging in armed confrontation. You don't need to be equipped as if you're in the business of pro-actively engaging in armed confrontation.
    That's your opinion and I certainly hope you don't think we should be legislated out of having the ability to own a weapon that you've defined as "offensive only." What, in your infinite knowledge and ability to tell what everyone in here will and wont need during their lifetime, makes a firearm "offensive only?"


    That's not my "opinion" . . . unless you're on the PAYROLL for law enforcement or the military, you're not "in the business of engaging in armed confrontation."

    You' may be preoccupied, fixated or otherwise obssessed with engaging in armed
    confrontation, but it's not your job.

    And there's nothing in the construction of my statement which would infer some sort of distinction between "offfensive" and "defensive" arms, and some sort of concomitant ban on an entire class of firearms.

    I have a small cannon at the house; it's "offensive." It's not the "Bill of Needs" it's the Bill of Rights.

    But I just don't see much utility in carrying on one's person more than one firearm. The police and military pretty much agree with me on that one too. The backup should be a long-gun, unless you're Walter Mitty and being chased by Zombies.

    Let's not patronize my "infinite knowledge and ability." You're just going to piss me off.





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    And there's nothing in the construction of my statement which would infer some sort of distinction between "offfensive" and "defensive" arms, and some sort of concomitant ban on an entire class of firearms.
    You stated the following:

    You don't need to be equipped as if you're in the business of pro-actively engaging in armed confrontation.
    My point was that it's quite clearly YOUR OPINION that having a BUG is being equippend in that manner. Hence, you define the BUG as somehow being a piece of equipment limited to offensive engagements, ie - "pro-actively engaging in armed confrontation."

    You clearly imply that such a tool is NOT for self defense and IS for offensive, ie - "pro-active," engagements. I threw the possible ban in for fun, do take the time to note that I never said you intend to ban something.


    That's not my "opinion" . . . unless you're on the PAYROLL for law enforcement or the military, you're not "in the business of engaging in armed confrontation.
    When I responded to your two sentence statement, I was responding specifically to the second sentence. I simply included the first sentence because I did not want the second sentence, which was the one I was addressing, to be somehow taken out of context. I hate it when people do that to me, so I simply gave you the same courtesy that I expect.


    Let's not patronize my "infinite knowledge and ability." You're just going to piss me off.
    Is that some kind of veiled threat? Should I be concerned about you becoming "pissed off" and if so, why?

    (ie - come on now, we can all be civil here. I don't wish to upset you. I will, however, refrain from the use of this statement in reference to you in the future.)


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    Beretta M21A in .22LR, 2 extra mags for it and my primary, SA G.I. Champion. A high % of semi auto malfunctions can be directly related to mags, so extra mags just makes good sense. Also I see someone quoted Massad Ayoob as being able to arm another person who can competently use a firearm, valid point, as you cannot see 360 degrees and this way your 6 would be covered. IF I should ever need my BUG, it would be a true "Oh @#$%" situation and a .22 at POINT BLANK (read contact or a few feet) is really gonna hurt like hell!!!! BTW, it is loaded with 40grn. solids, I have read that hollowpoint .22's can fail to penetrate sometimes, but, God Willing, I Will Never have to use either. Just my 2 cents worth, feel free to flame away if you want to.
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    Seems like a good choice to me, a solid 40gr should penetrate well. The only thing I worry about is the lower reliability I've experienced with rimfire .22's, but it's the last resort so it's better than nothing.

    I'd imagine it's also a very easily controlled weapon since it probably has very light recoil, so you could quickly put rounds into their head from a couple feet without any problem I would think. A good 40gr .22LR will go through a skull I'd imagine, especially one of those hyper velocity Aguila or CCI rounds. That's what I would probably use, simply because the barrel is so short.

    It seems it would be sufficient to cause problems for an attacker, if not disable them. Like you said, it should at they very least hurt like hell. Especially if you hit them in the chest, abdomen, groin, neck or face I would think. If you hit their CNS, their heart or a major blood vessel I think it would put them down quickly, if not pretty much instantly, even though some people consider it to be a "useless" caliber.

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    Regular Member Thundar's Avatar
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    SCOTUS 07-290 wrote:
    I could saunter around town with my three Uzis, AK, Garand, 2 1911's, XD, J-Frame, N-Frame, three scoped centerfire rifles, two lever action carbines, four shotguns, two Mausers, a Moisin, black powder muskets,...,
    Dude,

    If thats all you got you need some serious Gunbroker or Auction Arms bidding action. From your list I would guess that the S&W J Frame is your bug, right?


    What kind of Mausers? I prefer Swedish Mausers.
    He wore his gun outside his pants for all the honest world to see. Pancho & Lefty

    The millions of people, armed in the holy cause of liberty, and in such a country as that which we possess, are invincible by any force which our enemy can send against us....There is no retreat but in submission and slavery! ...The war is inevitable–and let it come! I repeat it, Sir, let it come …………. PATRICK HENRY speech 1776

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    Weak9mm,

    I use Remington Thunderbolt in it, the manual recommends no hyper velocity ammo because it might cause malfunctions. It is also DA/SA, quite controllable, and fun to shoot too. Like the old saying goes, the .22 in the pocket beats the .45 at home everytime. It is well made and reliable and I do not feel undergunned with it as my BUG. 7+1 is gonna hurt at arms length or so and they would be coming real fast too.

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    Interesting, is it because the hyper velocity rounds are too powerful or is it due to a difference in powder burn rate compared with other rounds? I haven't owned a .22LR pistol, hence the uncertainty.

    Out of curiosity, can you use the 60gr Aguila Sub Sonic Sniper (SSS) rounds? The bullet is huge, so I don't even know if it would work properly with your magazine, but at least out of a rifle and a Walther P22 it penetrates very well from what I've seen. On brassfetcher they used a Walther P22 with a 3.4" bbl, which allowed it to penetrate 13.1". It also turned on its side after 8" of penetration, causing a pretty nasty looking wound channel. That is VERY acceptable penetration for a .22LR fired from a pistol IMO. I would, without a doubt, trust it to reach vitals and probably pop right through most bone, including the skull. Here's the test with a photo of the damage to the inside of the block. That is one nasty bullet!

    http://www.brassfetcher.com/WaltherP22test.html

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    I believe it is because of the short slide rails, I mean REAL short, no recoil spring and I think it is also because I recall reading somewhere of people using hypervel ammo and the slide coming off. Not sure where I read it, but it was a reliable source so I just follow the manual and have had no problems. To further elaborate on the reliability, I tend to believe that the hypervel ammo causes it to cycle too fast for the action, that is an opinion, but I believe it to be valid in this case. High Velocity ammo is ok in it, but again, I do not use hypervel in it. I will run a box of 50 everytime I shoot it and no problems, so if it works, why try to push the envelope.

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    Thundar wrote:
    SCOTUS 07-290 wrote:
    I could saunter around town with my three Uzis, AK, Garand, 2 1911's, XD, J-Frame, N-Frame, three scoped centerfire rifles, two lever action carbines, four shotguns, two Mausers, a Moisin, black powder muskets,...,
    Dude,

    If thats all you got you need some serious Gunbroker or Auction Arms bidding action. From your list I would guess that the S&W J Frame is your bug, right?


    What kind of Mausers? I prefer Swedish Mausers.
    -- That's just the stuff off the top of my head that I listed . . .

    M96 Swede, 1900 Oberndorf. 38/22 Czech, and a M48 Yugoslav.

    I listed my "bug" above -- 12 gauge shotgun. The handgun is just to cover your ass until you can get to the long-gun. I have a wide array of both handguns and long-guns. Picking a combo is sort of like chosing what shoes to wear.

    No Glocks, no AR's -- owned both in the past and can't warm up to them.

    Not a war zone here, not a lot of Zombies -- I drive into town for groceries all the time without being armed.

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