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Thread: I just found out about open carry

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    Hello everyone this is my first post. I was online last night and I came across this site. I had always been told that you need a concealed weapons permit to carry a handgun in this state and that the gun had to be concealed. So when I found out about this whole OC thing I wasn't really sure.

    This afternoon I called up the King County Sheriff Bothell precinct to see what they had to say about it. The woman that I spoke to told me that it is not illegal but if I was seen doing it that I would be stopped and that the police would have their weapons drawn. She also said that they are working to get the law changed.

    I would like to OC but not if everytime I do the police pull up with their guns drawn. I was wondering if this is really what the police do in this area and if this is what you all have to put up with? Has anyone had an experience like this? Do many people OC in the Bothell/Kirkland area?

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    thegrenade86 wrote:
    Hello everyone this is my first post. I was online last night and I came across this site. I had always been told that you need a concealed weapons permit to carry a handgun in this state and that the gun had to be concealed. So when I found out about this whole OC thing I wasn't really sure.

    This afternoon I called up the King County Sheriff Bothell precinct to see what they had to say about it. The woman that I spoke to told me that it is not illegal but if I was seen doing it that I would be stopped and that the police would have their weapons drawn. She also said that they are working to get the law changed.

    I would like to OC but not if everytime I do the police pull up with their guns drawn. I was wondering if this is really what the police do in this area and if this is what you all have to put up with? Has anyone had an experience like this? Do many people OC in the Bothell/Kirkland area?
    The lady you spoke to is most likely their receptionist/records clerk. I would take what she says with a grain of salt. The officers typically are not going to go to that drastic of a measure, especially since they know it to be legal.
    "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity."

    "though I walk through the valley in the shadow of death, I fear no evil, for I know that you are by my side" Glock 23:40

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    joeroket wrote:
    thegrenade86 wrote:
    Hello everyone this is my first post. I was online last night and I came across this site. I had always been told that you need a concealed weapons permit to carry a handgun in this state and that the gun had to be concealed. So when I found out about this whole OC thing I wasn't really sure.

    This afternoon I called up the King County Sheriff Bothell precinct to see what they had to say about it. The woman that I spoke to told me that it is not illegal but if I was seen doing it that I would be stopped and that the police would have their weapons drawn. She also said that they are working to get the law changed.

    I would like to OC but not if everytime I do the police pull up with their guns drawn. I was wondering if this is really what the police do in this area and if this is what you all have to put up with? Has anyone had an experience like this? Do many people OC in the Bothell/Kirkland area?
    The lady you spoke to is most likely their receptionist/records clerk. I would take what she says with a grain of salt. The officers typically are not going to go to that drastic of a measure, especially since they know it to be legal.
    I agree. This is a scare tactic designed to get you to avoid OC. If you read the Washington statutes regarding the carry of weapons, you will find that State law both allows open carry except in certain prohibited places, and pre-empts any laws, rules or regulations at any level subservient to the State (county, city, HOA, landlord). Some officers do not like this; it undercuts their perceived authority as the foremost method of crime prevention, and those officers will give you a hard time about it.However, it is NOT their purpose to prevent crime, they CANNOT be everywhere, and they are NOT responsible for you personally. By contrast, you have a compelling interest to prevent crimes attempted against you, you are where you are at all times and are thus best able to respond, and you are theone person on this earthmost directly responsible for your ownfate.

    To be fair, OC is a political and legal minefield for any police department. On one side you have the rabid antis who freak when they see an OCer. On the other side you have the gun owners who know their rights and are not afraid to nonviolently challenge the authority of officers to uphold non-existent or otherwise unenforceable law. The police are caught in no-an's land where to follow the law and simply tip their hat to OC can put them in political hot water (since when have the antis ever accepted "it's legal" as a defense in their battle for public opinion?), while even detaining a lawful OCer can and has resulted in complaints being filed all the way up the ladder, to say nothing of a false arrest.

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    Regular Member compmanio365's Avatar
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    Welcome!

    I would have asked the lady this.....if it is not illegal, then why would the officers even stop me in the first place? Much less have weapons drawn at me? What reasonable, articulable suspicion exists to justify doing so? I bet you would have had a changed answer very quickly.....as it has been said, I wouldn't worry about what this lady has said too much, as she is a desk jockey and isn't out in the field.

    However.....if this did happen when you OCd, you shouldn't allow this to scare you out of exercising your rights, but fight it tooth and nail, as what they would be doing is illegal and puts them in a position to lose a very big court case. They are hoping that by telling you this, you won't OC.......remember, the police are NOT your friends, they are not there for you.......the only person you can rely on for your well being is yourself, hence why we all carry. (I am NOT saying police are BAD people....just that they aren't out there for YOU...but the community as a whole....so if YOU are in trouble, you aren't guaranteed anything.....)

    Good luck, and happy OCing! Hopefully you can make it to our next lunch; that might be the best place to start OCing if you are that nervous about it, as starting out in a group of knowledgeable people, and gradually moving your way to solo OC might help to ease you into it, rather than going out on your own without being prepared for a negative encounter.

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    you are where you are at all times and are thus best able to respond

    I really like the wording, and reasoning in that sentence.


    Why do you carry?

    The police are not where i am, at all times (thank god)
    however, i am where i am, at all times. Therefore, i will carry.





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    compmanio365 wrote:
    Welcome!

    I would have asked the lady this.....if it is not illegal, then why would the officers even stop me in the first place? Much less have weapons drawn at me? What reasonable, articulable suspicion exists to justify doing so? I bet you would have had a changed answer very quickly.....as it has been said, I wouldn't worry about what this lady has said too much, as she is a desk jockey and isn't out in the field.
    +1 infact I am tempted to call them up and say just that.

    Although you should be so lucky to get them to draw their guns on you, nice little lawsuit.

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    compmanio365 wrote:
    (SNIP)
    However.....if this did happen when you OCd, you shouldn't allow this to scare you out of exercising your rights, but fight it tooth and nail, as what they would be doing is illegal and puts them in a position to lose a very big court case and face a fine and/or jail time of up to 10 years. (SNIP)
    Fixed to reflect US Code Title 18 Section 242 in regards to the Fourth Amendment of the Bill of Rights, dealing with illegal search and seizure (including seizure of one's person).
    B.S. Chemistry UofWA '09
    KF7GEA

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    thegrenade86 wrote:
    Hello everyone this is my first post. I was online last night and I came across this site. I had always been told that you need a concealed weapons permit to carry a handgun in this state and that the gun had to be concealed. So when I found out about this whole OC thing I wasn't really sure.

    This afternoon I called up the King County Sheriff Bothell precinct to see what they had to say about it. The woman that I spoke to told me that it is not illegal but if I was seen doing it that I would be stopped and that the police would have their weapons drawn. She also said that they are working to get the law changed.

    I would like to OC but not if everytime I do the police pull up with their guns drawn. I was wondering if this is really what the police do in this area and if this is what you all have to put up with? Has anyone had an experience like this? Do many people OC in the Bothell/Kirkland area?
    Welcome! First off what the receptionist told you is a line. I OC often, and while I have had a guns drawn incident, it was very nicely cleared up, and was rooted in some misunderstandings of the law and proper response in a small department.

    King County Sheriff's Department has issued one of the finest training bulletins on the subject of OC. I do not know where this person was getting their info/attitude from. As far as working to "change the law" the "law" has been on the books for well over 40 years, and is also rooted in the state constitution.

    I just spent all day OCing around Olympia and had no cops approach me over it. Don't worry about it. OC is legal, and I believe every department out there knows it.

    Good luck!

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    Did you call KCSO or did you call Bothell PD? The reason I ask is that there is no "Bothell precinct" for KCSO. There is a "North" precinct that is located in the city of Kenmore, but you'd be surprised how frequently people think they are talking to one agency but are actually talking to another.

    Having worked for KCSO (not commissioned) for nearly 16 years, I can tell you this:

    A) If you talked to a precinct clerk and were told this, she clearly overstepped her authority (and knowledge).

    B) To my knowledge "we" (ie- the Sheriff's Office) are not trying to get any laws regarding firearms "changed".

    While it is unfortunate that you may get attention from police if you are carrying a gun, fact is it might happen. Liability and public "concern" being what it is these days, you just have to accept that in a urban/suburban area in a very left leaning area of the state.

    For the entire length of my employment (the current and last two Sheriffs), KCSO has been pretty "firearms friendly". In fact King County as a whole, while under the care ofProsecutor Norm Maleng (who unfortunatelypassed away last year) has a good reputation when it comes to 2A rights and issues.

    This fact is usuallyovershadowed by Seattle and their seemingly endless parade of inept Mayors,politically appointed police chiefs (Norm "WTO won't be a problem" Stamper, and Gil "where's my gun?" Kerlikowske), and mentally defective public officials (remember Maggie Pageler anyone?).

    Of course maybe being in close proximity to Seattle just makes us look good

    One word of advice to anyone who calls Sheriff, PD, city clerk, or anyone about anything- get a name of the person you talk to. That makes things sooo much easier to track down if and when there is a question or complaint.

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    thegrenade86 wrote:
    This afternoon I called up the King County Sheriff Bothell precinct to see what they had to say about it. The woman that I spoke to told me that it is not illegal but if I was seen doing it that I would be stopped and that the police would have their weapons drawn. She also said that they are working to get the law changed.
    I would love to have that conversation on tape. Seems to me that is a threat to commit assault under color of ther law. Which is they complaint I would file if they did draw thier guns on me, the tape would be my evidence that they did so knowng that my actions were not illegal and that my open carry did not present a danger

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    Welcome to OCDO!

    I corresponded with the chief of the Bothell PD a few months ago and wasassured that the Bothell PD officers are all aware of the legality of open carry. The 911 operators in the area are also supposed to be aware of this, but may dispatch officers to "check out" MWAG calls.

    For what it's worth, I really liked the members of the Bothell PD that I ran intoover the 3 years I lived there (just moved to ID this month.) They are a professional and courteous bunch in my experience.

    Regards,
    -AR

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    B) To my knowledge "we" (ie- the Sheriff's Office) are not trying to get any laws regarding firearms "changed".
    D*mn right you'd better not be! As individual citizens and residents of WA you have as much right as anyone else to politic all you want, but coporately as a department? Sorry, as the "the instruments that we have created" (c.f. RCW 42.56.030, just love the the wording therein) you as a department, and in your official capacity should just soldier on and enforce the laws that we the people have created.


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    kparker wrote:
    B) To my knowledge "we" (ie- the Sheriff's Office) are not trying to get any laws regarding firearms "changed".
    D*mn right you'd better not be! As individual citizens and residents of WA you have as much right as anyone else to politic all you want, but coporately as a department? Sorry, as the "the instruments that we have created" (c.f. RCW 42.56.030, just love the the wording therein) you as a department, and in your official capacity should just soldier on and enforce the laws that we the people have created.
    While I agree with your sentiment,the RCW cited is applicable to public records, which is what 42.56 is about. Instruments refers to those items as defined in 42.56.010. The agencies are not instruments. It's late and if I've completely misread your post, my bad.

    Now, along those lines; one thing that I have a real problem with is Kerlikowske showing up to testify at a legislative hearing in a uniform provided by the city and likely on city time. As if this gave him more credibility than you or me (though I've never had my gun taken from my car).

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    Gene, I wasn't trying to say it was directly applicable to Law Enforcement, I just like the attitude contained. Here's another wonderful line from the same paragraph:

    The people, in delegating authority, do not give their public servants the right to decide what is good for the people to know and what is not good for them to know.
    Again, while it's directly talking about governmental records, do you think the people who passed that into law would be OK with our public servants, on the payroll, lobbying against our civil rights? Me neither.

    I am curious about this particular assertion:

    Instruments refers to those items as defined in 42.56.010.
    in that the word "instruments" does not appear in .010 at all. Could you clarify?

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    Regular Member Gene Beasley's Avatar
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    I guess instrument is a "term of art." I hadn't heard it used that way before becoming a notary. While not a common use, good old Marriam-Webster #4:a formal legal document (as a deed, bond, or agreement). So they don't directly address instruments, but more expand what is considered an instrument as far as public records, such as recordings, computer disks, etc.



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    I OC on the eastside including bothell and kirkland, recently I went on a ride-along with KCSO during their yearly party-patrolswhile ocing, no problems.

    Shalom

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    I moved to Kirkland a couple weeks ago and have had zero negative OC experiences in the area, quite the opposite actually. Been having some crappy luck personally OCing in Snohomish County but as for King County in general I have had a pretty positive reaction from most folks including LE. Welcome to the forum!

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    PolskiG wrote:
    I OC on the eastside including bothell and kirkland, recently I went on a ride-along with KCSO during their yearly party-patrolswhile ocing, no problems.

    Shalom
    They let you carry on a ride-along?! :shock: Man, next time I'm home on leave I'll have to check that out.

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    If police are wanting to get a law changed, they typically go through the Washington Association of Sheriff's and Police Chiefs. They are a pretty strong lobbying force in Olympia, they usually get their way.

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    MetalChris wrote:
    PolskiG wrote:
    I OC on the eastside including bothell and kirkland, recently I went on a ride-along with KCSO during their yearly party-patrolswhile ocing, no problems.

    Shalom
    They let you carry on a ride-along?! :shock: Man, next time I'm home on leave I'll have to check that out.
    ohh sorry, sorry, meant CC, yes the deputy was a friend he was fine with it but I still had to sign that waiver so I couldn't sue the department if I got killed.

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    PolskiG wrote:
    MetalChris wrote:
    PolskiG wrote:
    I OC on the eastside including bothell and kirkland, recently I went on a ride-along with KCSO during their yearly party-patrolswhile ocing, no problems.

    Shalom
    They let you carry on a ride-along?! :shock: Man, next time I'm home on leave I'll have to check that out.
    ohh sorry, sorry, meant CC, yes the deputy was a friend he was fine with it but I still had to sign that waiver so I couldn't sue the department if I got killed.
    I take it his Superiors did not know you were carrying. I do not know of any Dept. that lets a rider carry when out with the officers.
    "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity."

    "though I walk through the valley in the shadow of death, I fear no evil, for I know that you are by my side" Glock 23:40

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    joeroket wrote:
    I take it his Superiors did not know you were carrying. I do not know of any Dept. that lets a rider carry when out with the officers.
    I don't believe there is a policy on it. Probably an individual offcier thing. I know on every rifealong I have done i have carried with the officer's consent.

    I even had one officer offer to give me his back up revolver until I told him I was already good to go.

    Of course I work for the Department, so that may make a difference, but I think it just depends on who the officer is and how well they know you.





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    911Boss wrote:
    joeroket wrote:
    I take it his Superiors did not know you were carrying. I do not know of any Dept. that lets a rider carry when out with the officers.
    I don't believe there is a policy on it. Probably an individual offcier thing. I know on every rifealong I have done i have carried with the officer's consent.

    I even had one officer offer to give me his back up revolver until I told him I was already good to go.

    Of course I work for the Department, so that may make a difference, but I think it just depends on who the officer is and how well they know you.
    Wow...I thought only cops were professional enough to handle glock foties. :P Wonder if my being in the military would help my case if I wanted to carry on a ridealong...


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    911Boss wrote:
    joeroket wrote:
    I take it his Superiors did not know you were carrying. I do not know of any Dept. that lets a rider carry when out with the officers.
    I don't believe there is a policy on it. Probably an individual offcier thing. I know on every rifealong I have done i have carried with the officer's consent.

    I even had one officer offer to give me his back up revolver until I told him I was already good to go.

    Of course I work for the Department, so that may make a difference, but I think it just depends on who the officer is and how well they know you.



    That could be true, I have never seen a written policy on it either, but I do not know of any Sgt. that will approve a rider if he knows a firearm will be carried. In your case I would actually be a bit shocked if they did not let you ride while armed, professional courtesy extends to the 911 office as far as I have ever seen.
    "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity."

    "though I walk through the valley in the shadow of death, I fear no evil, for I know that you are by my side" Glock 23:40

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