Rick Finsta
Regular Member
imported post
I sent the following (with slightly modified language for the Sheriff) to my local police chief, so we'll see if I hear anything back. The Sheriff does not have an email address posted anywhere online, so I had to extrapolate it based on other county government addresses. If it gets bounced back, I'll know it didn't go through and I'll send a paper letter. Here are the goods:
June 30, 2008
Dear Chief Meloy:
I have been a resident of Saukville for two years now, and would very much appreciate it if you could answer a few questions for me. First, I wish to offer you a bit of background:
Roughly one month ago, an acquaintance of mine was approached in the city of West Milwaukee, in the parking lot of a Menard's store, by on-duty members of that locale's law enforcement community. DETAILS OF STOP OMITTED ON FORUM FOR PARABELLUM'S PRIVACY. He identified himself to the responding officers, as required by Wisconsin law when an officer believes a citizen has committed, or imminently will commit, a crime (though the United States Supreme Court has stated that the mere carry of a firearm does not constitute reasonable articuable suspicion for a Terry stop, see Terry v. Ohio and J.L. v. Florida). He was arrested for "Disorderly Conduct while Armed," (947.01 with 939.63 modifier) and his weapon and his accessories (case, magazines, ammunition, and holster) were confiscated without any receipt being issued. He has not been charged with any crime to date, and he has not had his property returned to him. He has since begun the arduous process of filing a motion for the return of his property, as well as finding a civil rights attorney for a possible 42 USC, 1983 action.
Now, as I openly carry a firearm from time to time (for personal security, as lawful exercise of a constitutionally guaranteed right under Article 1, Section 25 of the Wisconsin Constitution, and in compliance with the Wisconsin Supreme Court decision in State v. Hamdan), this gave me pause to wonder what sort of response would be executed by law enforcement officers here in Saukville in a similar situation. As such, I would like to pose a hypothetical (understanding that I am not asking for legal advice, but rather, trying to determine what response should be expected):
A 27 year old man who is not a felon (or otherwise prohibited person) is armed with a handgun. Said handgun is secured in a holster, attached to the man's belt, and is clearly visible (outside all clothing). The man is sober. The man is shopping for mangos in a local supermarket, and his route of ingress/egress on foot does not take him within 1000' of a school zone, or into a state park. The man has not been asked to disarm or to leave by the retailer.
My questions are as follows:
1) If another citizen became alarmed by this man buying mangos solely because he had a firearm, and without aggravating factors that could constitute disorderly conduct (per 947.01), and that citizen called 911, will officers automatically be dispatched to reconnoiter, or will the operator attempt to verify that aggravating factors are in place ("is the man threatening anyone," "what is the man doing," etc.)?
2) If police officers are dispatched, will they approach this man regardless of his observed conduct?
3) If police officers approach this man, will they preemptively escalate to threat of deadly force by drawing their weapons?
4) Absent any behavior that meets the statutory definition of disorderly conduct, will the responding officers arrest the man?
5) Since the application of 66.0409 renders the language "or have any firearm in his possession within the Village unless it is unloaded and knocked down and enclosed in a carrying case or other suitable container" of municipal ordinance 140-2 null and void, what statute(s) would be used to justify any arrest made in question #4?
6) Given the conditions of question #4, would this man's firearm (and/or ancillary equipment) be confiscated, and would a receipt be issued? (I understand that officers may temporarily relieve the man of his weapon during detention, I am referring to an actual confiscation.)
I fully understand that you cannot tell me exactly what would transpire, and I am not asking for carte blanche to act like a jerk while armed. I take my decision to go armed very seriously, and I conduct myself accordingly. However, having heard of my acquaintance's plight, and understanding the costs he must incur for legal recourse and return of his property, I think prudence dictates I seek clarification on the Saukville Police Department's policy in responding to a "man with a gun" call that turns out to be a citizen peacably going about their business while legally armed. I will be sending an identical query to Sheriff Straub, and would very much appreciate confirmation of receipt if an answer will not be forthcoming within 10 days.
Finally, let me thank you for your time and public service. My sister and her husband are both in law enforcement (DEPARTMENTS OMITTED FOR PRIVACY, respectively), and I greatly appreciate the job you and your department perform. I look forward to hearing back from you, and I am available by email or telephone to answer any questions you may have.
Sincerely,
Mike Gallo
I sent the following (with slightly modified language for the Sheriff) to my local police chief, so we'll see if I hear anything back. The Sheriff does not have an email address posted anywhere online, so I had to extrapolate it based on other county government addresses. If it gets bounced back, I'll know it didn't go through and I'll send a paper letter. Here are the goods:
June 30, 2008
Dear Chief Meloy:
I have been a resident of Saukville for two years now, and would very much appreciate it if you could answer a few questions for me. First, I wish to offer you a bit of background:
Roughly one month ago, an acquaintance of mine was approached in the city of West Milwaukee, in the parking lot of a Menard's store, by on-duty members of that locale's law enforcement community. DETAILS OF STOP OMITTED ON FORUM FOR PARABELLUM'S PRIVACY. He identified himself to the responding officers, as required by Wisconsin law when an officer believes a citizen has committed, or imminently will commit, a crime (though the United States Supreme Court has stated that the mere carry of a firearm does not constitute reasonable articuable suspicion for a Terry stop, see Terry v. Ohio and J.L. v. Florida). He was arrested for "Disorderly Conduct while Armed," (947.01 with 939.63 modifier) and his weapon and his accessories (case, magazines, ammunition, and holster) were confiscated without any receipt being issued. He has not been charged with any crime to date, and he has not had his property returned to him. He has since begun the arduous process of filing a motion for the return of his property, as well as finding a civil rights attorney for a possible 42 USC, 1983 action.
Now, as I openly carry a firearm from time to time (for personal security, as lawful exercise of a constitutionally guaranteed right under Article 1, Section 25 of the Wisconsin Constitution, and in compliance with the Wisconsin Supreme Court decision in State v. Hamdan), this gave me pause to wonder what sort of response would be executed by law enforcement officers here in Saukville in a similar situation. As such, I would like to pose a hypothetical (understanding that I am not asking for legal advice, but rather, trying to determine what response should be expected):
A 27 year old man who is not a felon (or otherwise prohibited person) is armed with a handgun. Said handgun is secured in a holster, attached to the man's belt, and is clearly visible (outside all clothing). The man is sober. The man is shopping for mangos in a local supermarket, and his route of ingress/egress on foot does not take him within 1000' of a school zone, or into a state park. The man has not been asked to disarm or to leave by the retailer.
My questions are as follows:
1) If another citizen became alarmed by this man buying mangos solely because he had a firearm, and without aggravating factors that could constitute disorderly conduct (per 947.01), and that citizen called 911, will officers automatically be dispatched to reconnoiter, or will the operator attempt to verify that aggravating factors are in place ("is the man threatening anyone," "what is the man doing," etc.)?
2) If police officers are dispatched, will they approach this man regardless of his observed conduct?
3) If police officers approach this man, will they preemptively escalate to threat of deadly force by drawing their weapons?
4) Absent any behavior that meets the statutory definition of disorderly conduct, will the responding officers arrest the man?
5) Since the application of 66.0409 renders the language "or have any firearm in his possession within the Village unless it is unloaded and knocked down and enclosed in a carrying case or other suitable container" of municipal ordinance 140-2 null and void, what statute(s) would be used to justify any arrest made in question #4?
6) Given the conditions of question #4, would this man's firearm (and/or ancillary equipment) be confiscated, and would a receipt be issued? (I understand that officers may temporarily relieve the man of his weapon during detention, I am referring to an actual confiscation.)
I fully understand that you cannot tell me exactly what would transpire, and I am not asking for carte blanche to act like a jerk while armed. I take my decision to go armed very seriously, and I conduct myself accordingly. However, having heard of my acquaintance's plight, and understanding the costs he must incur for legal recourse and return of his property, I think prudence dictates I seek clarification on the Saukville Police Department's policy in responding to a "man with a gun" call that turns out to be a citizen peacably going about their business while legally armed. I will be sending an identical query to Sheriff Straub, and would very much appreciate confirmation of receipt if an answer will not be forthcoming within 10 days.
Finally, let me thank you for your time and public service. My sister and her husband are both in law enforcement (DEPARTMENTS OMITTED FOR PRIVACY, respectively), and I greatly appreciate the job you and your department perform. I look forward to hearing back from you, and I am available by email or telephone to answer any questions you may have.
Sincerely,
Mike Gallo
