what do you feel is a resonable conversation with LEOs about OC

Shanew1 · Jul 1, 2008

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Hi all New poster and New to Washington, I have always believed in OC and used to before I joined the military back in 93, since then I was retired for medical reasons sustained Overseas. when I was in the military we were not allowed to carry fire arms at all according to UCMJ, but now that I’m a civilian again I want to start carrying again, I live in Renton and from what I have read here seems like a decent place to OC, but also I have seen a lot of posters talking about their encounters with Leo’s around WA, and although a lot of them seem to go ok, I’m concerned that many might give away a reason for the Leo’s to arrest and or harass more then they should.

Here are two great clips why not to talk to the police. Even if they claim we are just having a conversation. Sorry if this has been brought up before, but I would really like to get peoples opinions on why they share so much info.

Why You Shouldn't Talk To The Police Pt. I

and

"Don't Talk to the Police" by Officer George Bruch

Izzle · Jul 1, 2008

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ya someone posted those videos a few weeks ago, they are great! I even learned a few things from them.

compmanio365 · Jul 1, 2008

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I have no issue with talking with a police officer, and have done so without issue. But I am pretty good at telling when someone is fishing for information or trying to gather intel to gain RAS for their detainment/arrest, and once I know that's where it's going, the conversation ends. I say good day, and I'll be on my way. If they don't want me to go, then I ask the questions:

"Am I being detained? Am I free to go? What is your reasonable, articulable, suspicion for detaining me? I demand to see a supervisor and I will need to contact my attorney before answering any questions."

Remember these phrases.....get them on recording if possible. Don't EVER physically resist, but don't allow them to get away with what they are doing either......make it very VERBALLY clear that what they are doing is unacceptable, you don't consent to it, and that it is against your rights to be detained when there is no evidence you have commited a crime.

sv_libertarian · Jul 1, 2008

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First off, welcome!

To answer your question regarding LEOs...

I have been detained twice by cops in Olympia. The first time the officers were professional, albeit misinformed. The second time the officer had an attitude and his partner had his gun out.

Both times I gave them my ID and CPL.

Why? Because in both cases it was painfully obvious I was already being detained, and was about two steps away from a cuff-and-stuff if I didn't cooperate. At that point, why argue? I took the matter up with the higher ups afterwards, and got much better response than I ever would have standing arguing with some uniforms.

I have been approached one other time by LEOs about OC, and that was in Seattle where it was a friendly low key conversation, no requests for ID. I in know way felt detained, and it was clearly a quick "How are you doing sir, by the way are you a crazy person?"

There are a lot of modes of thought on this topic, going to either extreme. I believe copping an attitude is not the best way, nor is 100% fall all overyouself slavering cooperation always the best.

I do believe arguments will not be won with the average beat cop. The can and will be won with the people running the show.

With that thought in mind, my only goal in an encounter is to end it swiftly with me walking away. If they want my ID bad enough they will cuff me and invent a reason why. But if showing ID ends the encounter quicker I'll give it to 'em. I have been asked to conceal my weapon and have refused to. The end result of that encounter is I believe an entire department has completely changed how they deal with OC. Now had I taken a differnent course I believe at the very least I would have been arrested, or possibly had a weapon used on me. I made it very plain in my complaint I felt threatened and coerced.

Do whatever you feel is right for you, but keep in mind there are easy roads, and there are hard roads. I cooperate, but only to the degree where by submission I begin to forfit rights. I have no objection to identifying myself under most circumstances. YMMV

Shanew1 · Jul 1, 2008

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Good advice thanks

Mainsail · Jul 1, 2008

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Shanew1 wrote:

Good advice thanks

I’m going to offer the differing opinion that all my rights are valuable to me, not just firearms rights. When I am obligated by law to present identification (driving or concealed carry for example) then I will always comply with the law. If I am otherwise minding my own business and detained in violation of Article 1, §7, I have no intention of ‘taking the easy way out’; providing ID, and contributing to the continuing deterioration of all of our civil rights. The police know the laws on Terry stops, arrest, detainment, seizure, probable cause, reasonable articulable suspicion, and the ever popular so-called ‘friendly chat’. They will take liberties with the law if it furthers their agenda, even if that agenda is just to ridicule you for your method of carry. This is what happened in PA recently, an entire OC dinner was pulled aside and IDs demanded. Only one person had the cajones to say, “No, I will not participate in your illegal actions.” Show them your papers if you want; yeah you might walk away a few minutes sooner, but in doing so you lose the right to complain when your other civil rights (including firearms rights) are disrespected.

3/325 · Jul 1, 2008

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Two things have to be considered:
1. There is an actual person, a human being in that uniform.
2. That person is the official eyes, ears, and arms of the State.

The trick is to be courteous to one and assertive to the other. Don't forget that while you're busy trying to figure out what kind of mission he's on, he's busy trying to figure out what kind of threat you might be. That's part of his job. Most cops (yes, there are always exceptions) aren't "hasslers", they've got too much to do and they aren't terribly interested in wasting time on someone who a) isn't committing an offense, and b) appears to be lucid.

If the only thing you see is a uniform then you're already behind the curve.

Bill Starks · Jul 1, 2008

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3/325 wrote:

Two things have to be considered:
1. There is an actual person, a human being in that uniform.
2. That person is the official eyes, ears, and arms of the State.

The trick is to be courteous to one and assertive to the other. Don't forget that while you're busy trying to figure out what kind of mission he's on, he's busy trying to figure out what kind of threat you might be. That's part of his job. Most cops (yes, there are always exceptions) aren't "hasslers", they've got too much to do and they aren't terribly interested in wasting time on someone who a) isn't committing an offense, and b) appears to be lucid.
If the only thing you see is a uniform then you're already behind the curve.

I had to pass this along a piece this of Kentucky thread about OC.
http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum25/12301.html

superdemon
I have been a cop for almost 10 years, and I have never, never heard of someone being lodged for OC. I have never even heard of someone being charged after the initial contact was for OC, and other charges developed.

Again, common sense rules apply here.

1. Dress like you're not a thug.
2. Don't let the gun play peek-a-boo. It's either concealed or it's not.
3. Use a good, professional rig. Tucking it into your pants or a pocket is not only dangerous and stupid, it looks bad to others.
4. Be courteous; smiles and eye contact with those who notice go a loooong way. Remember your pleases, ma'ams and sirs.
5. I'm as muchof a civil libertarian ascan be, but in watching those videos of people engaged in interactions with LEO about open carry, I can tell you that all you are doing is making the situation worse by doing the following:

A. Making phonecalls to radio stations while the interaction is going on.
B. Repeatedly saying "I have nothing to say about that."
C. Refusing to give ID.

I can tell you, if you are doing nothing wrong, but I am called to check youout by a third party, all I want to do is get some ID, then get the hell out of your hair,as most LEO want to do. Mostly, it would be a show for the person calling in the complaint. The quicker we get it done the better. The last thing I want is some big scene where you are on the phone, a video recorder is going, and acrowd is gathering.

You want to get the police out of your hair, then let's get it donequick. If you start getting dodgy (yes, I know you're just exercising your rights, but in reality, all you are doing is keeping me from going and dealing with real criminals while you choose to stretch out a situation that could be easilyleft behind), then I have to dig further, just to make sure.

I know what I am saying is probably contrary to what a lot of you good folks believe, but think of this: When I took my job as a police officer, I realized very quickly that a big part of my job is to protect the rights of others, not just to take them away. I seeit as my duty to use my power, authority, and skills to protect your rights.

Trust me, I am a brother in arms with you. I am only trying to help here.
Peace and strength be with you.

Citizen · Jul 1, 2008

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M1Gunr wrote:

SNIP Trust me, I am a brother in arms with you. I am only trying to help here.
Peace and strength be with you.

Great!

Unfortunately, I have no way of discerning whether the cop in front of me is a brother in arms.

Thus, he gets the full treatment. Politely, but the full treatment. If he is totally professional and respects the Bill of Rights, he'll understand. If he's only interested in doing "his job" or considers rights get in the way of doing "his job" then there is a problem.

Bear 45/70 · Jul 1, 2008

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M1Gunr wrote:

3/325 wrote:

Two things have to be considered:
1. There is an actual person, a human being in that uniform.
2. That person is the official eyes, ears, and arms of the State.

The trick is to be courteous to one and assertive to the other. Don't forget that while you're busy trying to figure out what kind of mission he's on, he's busy trying to figure out what kind of threat you might be. That's part of his job. Most cops (yes, there are always exceptions) aren't "hasslers", they've got too much to do and they aren't terribly interested in wasting time on someone who a) isn't committing an offense, and b) appears to be lucid.
If the only thing you see is a uniform then you're already behind the curve.

Click to expand...

I had to pass this along a piece this of Kentucky thread about OC.
superdemon
I have been a cop for almost 10 years, and I have never, never heard of someone being lodged for OC. I have never even heard of someone being charged after the initial contact was for OC, and other charges developed.

Again, common sense rules apply here.

1. Dress like you're not a thug.
2. Don't let the gun play peek-a-boo. It's either concealed or it's not.
3. Use a good, professional rig. Tucking it into your pants or a pocket is not only dangerous and stupid, it looks bad to others.
4. Be courteous; smiles and eye contact with those who notice go a loooong way. Remember your pleases, ma'ams and sirs.
5. I'm as muchof a civil libertarian ascan be, but in watching those videos of people engaged in interactions with LEO about open carry, I can tell you that all you are doing is making the situation worse by doing the following:

A. Making phonecalls to radio stations while the interaction is going on.
B. Repeatedly saying "I have nothing to say about that."
C. Refusing to give ID.

I can tell you, if you are doing nothing wrong, but I am called to check youout by a third party, all I want to do is get some ID, then get the hell out of your hair,as most LEO want to do. Mostly, it would be a show for the person calling in the complaint. The quicker we get it done the better. The last thing I want is some big scene where you are on the phone, a video recorder is going, and acrowd is gathering.

You want to get the police out of your hair, then let's get it donequick. If you start getting dodgy (yes, I know you're just exercising your rights, but in reality, all you are doing is keeping me from going and dealing with real criminals while you choose to stretch out a situation that could be easilyleft behind), then I have to dig further, just to make sure.

I know what I am saying is probably contrary to what a lot of you good folks believe, but think of this: When I took my job as a police officer, I realized very quickly that a big part of my job is to protect the rights of others, not just to take them away. I seeit as my duty to use my power, authority, and skills to protect your rights.

Trust me, I am a brother in arms with you. I am only trying to help here.
Peace and strength be with you.

This is really strange situation for me. Here is a cop advocating doing what I have always done with police officers, OC, CC or no gun at all. It has always worked for me and I have never been detained. Several officers that are personal friends have told me basically the same thing. I discussed the issue with a detective the other day that I met at one of the local gun shops. I was OCing and wearing my favorite hat, which says "Dysfunctional Veteran........Leave me alone." The detectives only question was had I ever been hassled Ocing and wearing the hat? The answer is no, on top of that the hat is a joke. The OC part was a given by him and myself. I try to educate that OC is legal and that no one has anything to fear from someone OCing.Being bullhead does not present this picture. This of course is only my opinion and obligates no one to agree with it.

Citizen · Jul 1, 2008

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Bear 45/70 wrote:

SNIP This of course is only my opinion and obligates no one to agree with it.

Who are you and what have you done with Bear?

Bear 45/70 · Jul 1, 2008

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Citizen wrote:

Bear 45/70 wrote:

SNIP This of course is only my opinion and obligates no one to agree with it.

Click to expand...

Who are you and what have you done with Bear?

sv_libertarian · Jul 1, 2008

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Citizen wrote:

Bear 45/70 wrote:

SNIP This of course is only my opinion and obligates no one to agree with it.

Click to expand...

Who are you and what have you done with Bear?

Mebbe the aftereffects of his surgery are still wearing off!

Bear 45/70 · Jul 1, 2008

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sv_libertarian wrote:

Citizen wrote:

Bear 45/70 wrote:

SNIP This of course is only my opinion and obligates no one to agree with it.

Click to expand...

Who are you and what have you done with Bear?

Click to expand...

Mebbe the aftereffects of his surgery are still wearing off!

Maybe it's a reaction to the meds? But then how would I know?

Holo · Jul 1, 2008

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Would it be a prudent concession for both sides of the issue if a situation went down like this:

You're OC'ing out in Seattle, public park. An officer drives up, gets out of his car and approaches you.

The officer can and will say anything as an introduction so just assume he says hello and asks for your identification and your CPL (as most seem to do).

You: While being a violation of my civil rights to request it, if you are demanding my identification, I will provide it to you so you can confirm I am not a criminal with criminal intent.

Officer: Accepts ID and CPL (again, best case scenario here) checks and returns. Attempts further discussion with you.

Now, at this point he can either be a proponent or an opponent of OC'ing. You'll find out here by what he says to you. Lets say he wants to argue/dissuade you from OC'ing. Rather than giving him the benefit of a discussion on laws he already knows he's violating, just say this:

You: If I am not being articulately detained, I would like to leave now. I am not a lawyer and am not interested in discussing the law at this point and time.

Obviously things won't always go this way, but I'm personally trying to strike the balance between acting like an asshole to the officer because he's violating my rights and just giving up my rights to the slippery slope of a police state.

I think it's something that you can't throw a broad blanket over and be done with it. Some officers are going to be complete assholes and others are just trying to do their job in accordance with the law like M1Gunr. Most officers make it blatantly obvious on which side of the issue they stand, so perhaps we can say that unless we're dealing with a very grey area case, you can choose to be a hardline right's activist to the cops that are being assholes, and a nice guy just helping them out when they aren't being confrontational.

peekaboo · Jul 2, 2008

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I would like to weigh in on this. I am one of the LEOs and I dont weigh in often because there is so much simplified "Terry" advice here alot of times it just isnt worth the effort....sufficent to say there arent many bright line rules and each encounter with someone is different.

My personal persepective is this; we are in a 'damned ifI do and damned if I dont dont' business. Personally carry all you want...the way I figure it if I see you walking down the street with a hog iron strapped to you, eating ice cream you go to the bottom of the list of people I NEED to talk to. I may, just get your information so I can end the inevitiable calls to dispatch about a man with a gun that will tie up my time.

If I am dispatched to you, remember somebody on the other end of a telephone has called and probably doesnt have a clue that it is legal to OC; and odds are they are watching. So in the interest ofintruding ona minute of your time, I will do as I explained above; I will tell you why we are talking, I will do it in a friendly proffessional manner and I will ask for your info...not for any other purpose than to tell my dispatchers to ignore all calls concerning you..(ok maybe not all, if you hold up the ice cream stand that changes things

I'm not going to ask for your CPL as it is not needed.And note to all I am not demanding anything.

It is simple courtesty on both sides and I personally think if we behaved like adults this really wouldnt be an issue. Hell I'll even tell you where the good places to eat are; then tip my hat and say thank you and go look for the guy who is trying to break into your car

And to the poster who stated asking for ID is violating your civil rights, sorry not so. The scale looks like this; social encounter-------investigative detention (Terry)----------arrest.

And absent something weird most of these should be social encounters.

ilbob · Jul 2, 2008

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If you wish to "converse" with cops about any subject at all, and you can find a cop who wants to converse with you on that subject, feel free to have a nice chat.

There is a big difference between a conversation and a detention.

Mainsail · Jul 2, 2008

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peekaboo wrote:

I would like to weigh in on this. I am one of the LEOs and I dont weigh in often because there is so much simplified "Terry" advice here alot of times it just isnt worth the effort....sufficent to say there arent many bright line rules and each encounter with someone is different.

My personal persepective is this; we are in a 'damned ifI do and damned if I dont dont' business. Personally carry all you want...the way I figure it if I see you walking down the street with a hog iron strapped to you, eating ice cream you go to the bottom of the list of people I NEED to talk to. I may, just get your information so I can end the inevitiable calls to dispatch about a man with a gun that will tie up my time.

It is simple courtesty on both sides and I personally think if we behaved like adults this really wouldnt be an issue. Hell I'll even tell you where the good places to eat are; then tip my hat and say thank you and go look for the guy who is trying to break into your car

And to the poster who stated asking for ID is violating your civil rights, sorry not so. The scale looks like this; social encounter-------investigative detention (Terry)----------arrest.

And absent something weird most of these should be social encounters.

If I were to encounter you, or any other officer with your attitude, I would do what I can to get you on your way quickly. My post above was regarding the videos, and the demeaning way the officer spoke to the citizen. Despite having been subject to that very attitude myself, I continue to wholeheartedly support the TPD and appreciate the work they do. I know the majority of the officers are not like the ass-clown I had to deal with.

So far I’ve been detained by TPD six times, five were for open carry.

1. Stopped and DL demanded before I even got into my car because cars like mine (but not mine) have been misused.
2. Olsen on Ruston Way waterfront- hostile encounter, told lies to me and later to his sergeant. Forced his partner to lie to cover for him.
3. Stopped on Ruston and detained (I asked) and DL demanded for open carry. Cooperated but in hindsight should not have.
4. Stopped on Ruston way, handcuffed, and (publicly) ridiculed for open carry. Was told by a police sergeant the TPD can stop anyone for any reason, including stopping a driver even though no law was broken.
5. Stopped at a coffee shop downtown, detained and CPL and DL demanded for open carry. Not a hostile encounter and I willingly cooperated.
6. Stopped and ‘not’ detained by Olsen at Museum of Glass. Was free to leave but he’d like to check my CPL to see if it expired, I did not cooperate.

You also confirmed something that I’ve suspected all along, that sometimes the only reason the officer is stopping you is because he feels that someone is watching and he has to go through the motions for their sake. Is such an instance, I would have no problem helping the officer.

Citizen · Jul 2, 2008

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peekaboo wrote:

SNIP I would like to weigh in on this.

They can't possibly be social encounters if an LEO is checking someone out. They are in fact a form of criminal investigation governed by the 4th Amendment. The person so contacted is in legal jeopardy.

Why not train the dispatchers to only send police for complaints of wrongdoing. "Man with gun? He's just walking with a holstered gun? Not illegal. Call us when something illegal happens."

Intrude on my time for just a minute? Because some panty-waist who was fraudulently trained to fear firearms is afraid? Just to satisfy their concern from a political standpoint of making itlook like something is being done?Why notintrude on the caller's time by making them aware of the law?

Courtesy? Cooperation? Rights trump courtesy. Nothing in the Bill of Rights requires a citizen to forgo his rightsfor the sake of courtesy or cooperation. Nothing requires him to assist police in clearing a call from an effete who is scared at the sight of a peaceably carried firearm.

sv_libertarian · Jul 2, 2008

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peekaboo wrote:

I would like to weigh in on this. I am one of the LEOs and I dont weigh in often because there is so much simplified "Terry" advice here alot of times it just isnt worth the effort....sufficent to say there arent many bright line rules and each encounter with someone is different.

My personal persepective is this; we are in a 'damned ifI do and damned if I dont dont' business. Personally carry all you want...the way I figure it if I see you walking down the street with a hog iron strapped to you, eating ice cream you go to the bottom of the list of people I NEED to talk to. I may, just get your information so I can end the inevitiable calls to dispatch about a man with a gun that will tie up my time.

If I am dispatched to you, remember somebody on the other end of a telephone has called and probably doesnt have a clue that it is legal to OC; and odds are they are watching. So in the interest ofintruding ona minute of your time, I will do as I explained above; I will tell you why we are talking, I will do it in a friendly proffessional manner and I will ask for your info...not for any other purpose than to tell my dispatchers to ignore all calls concerning you..(ok maybe not all, if you hold up the ice cream stand that changes thingsI'm not going to ask for your CPL as it is not needed.And note to all I am not demanding anything.

It is simple courtesty on both sides and I personally think if we behaved like adults this really wouldnt be an issue. Hell I'll even tell you where the good places to eat are; then tip my hat and say thank you and go look for the guy who is trying to break into your car

And to the poster who stated asking for ID is violating your civil rights, sorry not so. The scale looks like this; social encounter-------investigative detention (Terry)----------arrest.

And absent something weird most of these should be social encounters.

Nice to see a LEO hanging out here, welcome aboard.

I have had one "social encounter" with a LEO and it didn't even involve asking for ID. As you have pointed out there ARE ways to deal with OC'rs and complaints in a reasonable fashion. Many of us here have been victimized by those who don't understand that, although many important steps have been taken that have changed that in places.

I have never been in a situation where a "social encounter" also involved giving my ID. Both times I have given ID it was painfully obvious I was being detained. Some here have and it has gone down as you describe.

At any rate I believe as more and more people OC this will become less and less of a problem. Thanks for your input!

what do you feel is a resonable conversation with LEOs about OC

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