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what do you feel is a resonable conversation with LEOs about OC

T

thewise1

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peekaboo wrote:
I would like to weigh in on this. I am one of the LEOs and I dont weigh in often because there is so much simplified "Terry" advice here alot of times it just isnt worth the effort....sufficent to say there arent many bright line rules and each encounter with someone is different.

My personal persepective is this; we are in a 'damned ifI do and damned if I dont dont' business. Personally carry all you want...the way I figure it if I see you walking down the street with a hog iron strapped to you, eating ice cream you go to the bottom of the list of people I NEED to talk to. I may, just get your information so I can end the inevitiable calls to dispatch about a man with a gun that will tie up my time.

If I am dispatched to you, remember somebody on the other end of a telephone has called and probably doesnt have a clue that it is legal to OC; and odds are they are watching. So in the interest ofintruding ona minute of your time, I will do as I explained above; I will tell you why we are talking, I will do it in a friendly proffessional manner and I will ask for your info...not for any other purpose than to tell my dispatchers to ignore all calls concerning you..(ok maybe not all, if you hold up the ice cream stand that changes things:)I'm not going to ask for your CPL as it is not needed.And note to all I am not demanding anything.

It is simple courtesty on both sides and I personally think if we behaved like adults this really wouldnt be an issue. Hell I'll even tell you where the good places to eat are; then tip my hat and say thank you and go look for the guy who is trying to break into your car:)

And to the poster who stated asking for ID is violating your civil rights, sorry not so. The scale looks like this; social encounter-------investigative detention (Terry)----------arrest.

And absent something weird most of these should be social encounters.
Click to expand...
How, exactly, does the ID card give you any information to relate the subject of your stop with calls to dispatch? This assumes of course that the person calling 911 hasn't seen their ID and instead gives a physical description.
 
H

Holo

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I'm also curious how it isn't a violation of civil rights to request identification when there isn't an articulable basis for doing so.

It's that same slippery slope that leads us to demanding everyone's "papers".
 
C

carhas0

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Holo wrote:
I'm also curious how it isn't a violation of civil rights to request identification when there isn't an articulable basis for doing so.

It's that same slippery slope that leads us to demanding everyone's "papers".
Click to expand...

Asking for ID is not the same as demanding it. Anyone can walk up to anyone and ask for ID, including police. However, police can only require you to identify yourself if they have at least reasonable suspicion.
 
B

bcp

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Since no one is required to have a driver's license or state issued ID, how about just clipping your name and address from a letter or bill and presenting that?

Or just telling them your name and address?
 
vbnative73

vbnative73

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Shanew1 wrote:
when I was in the military we were not allowed to carry fire arms at all according to UCMJ
Click to expand...
:what:

What article of the UCMJ says you can't carry? Are you just talking about overseas?
 
B

Bear 45/70

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vbnative73 wrote:
Shanew1 wrote:
when I was in the military we were not allowed to carry fire arms at all according to UCMJ
Click to expand...
:what:

What article of the UCMJ says you can't carry? Are you just talking about overseas?
Click to expand...
Not in any UCMJ I ever heard of. But then I got out in the late 70's.
 
jbone

jbone

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peekaboo wrote:
If I am dispatched to you, remember somebody on the other end of a telephone has called and probably doesnt have a clue that it is legal to OC; and odds are they are watching. So in the interest ofintruding ona minute of your time, I will do as I explained above; I will tell you why we are talking, I will do it in a friendly proffessional manner and I will ask for your info...not for any other purpose than to tell my dispatchers to ignore all calls concerning you..(ok maybe not all, if you hold up the ice cream stand that changes things:)I'm not going to ask for your CPL as it is not needed.And note to all I am not demanding anything.
Click to expand...

I'll be calling 911 all day long for every swinging d*&^I see carrying a sheathed lock blade attached to their belt. Would I be stereotyping? He’s not doing anything wrong; but my god he has a knife! How about training the dispatchers to ask the proper questions from the caller, so they can dispatch the proper info to the officer. Than maybe the officer can just observe for a minute and move on with out any contact enabling them to concentrate on real crime fighting.
 
jbone

jbone

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Bear 45/70 wrote:
vbnative73 wrote:
Shanew1 wrote:
when I was in the military we were not allowed to carry fire arms at all according to UCMJ
Click to expand...
:what:

What article of the UCMJ says you can't carry? Are you just talking about overseas?
Click to expand...
Not in any UCMJ I ever heard of. But then I got out in the late 70's.
Click to expand...

I'm active duty since 85, not in any UCMJ Art. Don't listen to them SEA LAWYERS Shipmate.
 
Gene Beasley

Gene Beasley

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peekaboo wrote:
[snipped]
Click to expand...

peekaboo, welcome to the forum. I hope you will stick around.

Several have beat me to the punch. That you are forced into a contact that does not need to be made is a systemic problem. Every link needs to be addressed, but it's not. This should be a priority for an agency like WASPC or WSCJTC. APCO should also be included, but the dispatch centersreact to the policies set by their agencies, they don't set the policy.

Not to be argumentative, but I have to ask because the correlation seems so obvious to me. If a caller reporteda black man eating an ice cream cone, would your dispatcher dutifully take the description and put it out as a suspicious male? I would hope they would get something that was suspicious besides being black (I have taken this call BTW, no ice cream cone, just that black people don't live in our community). And would you make contact based strictly on the fact that he was black and nothing illegal?

The reason I tend to call bullshit is that I have done your job and I have done the dispatching job for a long time. Now just because I'm old doesn't mean I am the know-all, end-all. After all, It has been >25 yrs since I worked the streets. If you really want to make an impression, observe the situation. If you see no suspicious or illegal activity, then as for the call-back number and make contact with the RP that is probably watching you. If you're going to take up someone's time, why take up the time of the one doing nothing wrong. Why not potentially head off future calls but educating that person about the legality of OC. I can assure you that your contacting me is not going to decrease my OC'ing. I can guarantee that a bliss-ninny that calls in a legal OC and then gets to watch that person have to produce ID and see you write down the FIR info is going to call on every other person they see OC'ing.
 
I

ilbob

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, Illinois, USA
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I had a conversation with a cop a few days ago. It was a VA cop at the VA hospital where I went to visit my dad.

The cop was riding a Segway scooter, and we had a brief chat about it.
 
B

Bear 45/70

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ilbob wrote:
I had a conversation with a cop a few days ago. It was a VA cop at the VA hospital where I went to visit my dad.

The cop was riding a Segway scooter, and we had a brief chat about it.
Click to expand...
What has that got to do with OC since the VA has determined that all veterans are incapable of carrying a gun peacefully. Hence their Draconian rule of NO Firearms or Dangerous Weapons on any VA facility. Can someone please tell me what a hell a Dangerous Weapon is?
 
jbone

jbone

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Bear 45/70 wrote:
ilbob wrote:
I had a conversation with a cop a few days ago. It was a VA cop at the VA hospital where I went to visit my dad.

The cop was riding a Segway scooter, and we had a brief chat about it.
Click to expand...
What has that got to do with OC since the VA has determined that all veterans are incapable of carrying a gun peacefully. Hence their Draconian rule of NO Firearms or Dangerous Weapons on any VA facility. Can someone please tell me what a hell a Dangerous Weapon is?
Click to expand...

In trained hands"Chop Sticks" could be a Danerous Weapon!

Edited; forgot the "g" in Dangerous. This VET can't spell either.
 
B

Bear 45/70

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jbone wrote:
Bear 45/70 wrote:
ilbob wrote:
I had a conversation with a cop a few days ago. It was a VA cop at the VA hospital where I went to visit my dad.

The cop was riding a Segway scooter, and we had a brief chat about it.
Click to expand...
What has that got to do with OC since the VA has determined that all veterans are incapable of carrying a gun peacefully. Hence their Draconian rule of NO Firearms or Dangerous Weapons on any VA facility. Can someone please tell me what a hell a Dangerous Weapon is?
Click to expand...
In trained hands"Chop Sticks" could be a Danerous Weapon!
Click to expand...
My point exactly, thereare no dangerous weapons (AKA tools), only dangerous men and women. But some know nothing jackass is always using the term. Like Assault weapon, any weapon used in an assault is an assault weapon, but by itself there is no such thing.
 
jbone

jbone

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Bear 45/70 wrote:
jbone wrote:
Bear 45/70 wrote:
ilbob wrote:
I had a conversation with a cop a few days ago. It was a VA cop at the VA hospital where I went to visit my dad.

The cop was riding a Segway scooter, and we had a brief chat about it.
Click to expand...
What has that got to do with OC since the VA has determined that all veterans are incapable of carrying a gun peacefully. Hence their Draconian rule of NO Firearms or Dangerous Weapons on any VA facility. Can someone please tell me what a hell a Dangerous Weapon is?
Click to expand...
In trained hands"Chop Sticks" could be a Danerous Weapon!
Click to expand...
My point exactly, thereare no dangerous weapons (AKA tools), only dangerous men and women. But some know nothing jackass is always using the term. Like Assault weapon, any weapon used in an assault is an assault weapon, but by itself there is no such thing.
Click to expand...
+1
 
I

ilbob

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, Illinois, USA
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Bear 45/70 wrote:
ilbob wrote:
I had a conversation with a cop a few days ago. It was a VA cop at the VA hospital where I went to visit my dad.

The cop was riding a Segway scooter, and we had a brief chat about it.
Click to expand...
What has that got to do with OC since the VA has determined that all veterans are incapable of carrying a gun peacefully. Hence their Draconian rule of NO Firearms or Dangerous Weapons on any VA facility. Can someone please tell me what a hell a Dangerous Weapon is?
Click to expand...

My point was more along the lines of why would you want to talk to a cop in the first place? If there was something you wanted to ask him, or you were interested in a piece of his equipment (I must admit the Segway was pretty cool looking) and you voluntarily chose to engage in a conversation with him, I don't think I have any objection to that.

If a cop comes up to you while he is on duty, it is not just a conversation most of the time (although maybe he likes a piece of your equipment). Mostly he has determined in his own mind you warrant some level of scrutiny. If you do not wish to engage in conversation with him, you may find that he will detain you.
 
I

ilbob

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Gene Beasley wrote:
Not to be argumentative, but I have to ask because the correlation seems so obvious to me. If a caller reporteda black man eating an ice cream cone, would your dispatcher dutifully take the description and put it out as a suspicious male? I would hope they would get something that was suspicious besides being black (I have taken this call BTW, no ice cream cone, just that black people don't live in our community). And would you make contact based strictly on the fact that he was black and nothing illegal?
Click to expand...

Anything that is unusual might well warrant somelevel of scrutiny.I am not opposed to cops taking a look at unusual things going on. If there has not been a black fellow seen in the neighborhood in 50 years and suddenly there is one, thats certainly unusual. Not criminal, in and of itself, but certainly unusual.

I don't think it warrants stopping the individual and asking for ID, unless there is something else going on.
 
S

Shanew1

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Bear 45/70 wrote:
vbnative73 wrote:
Shanew1 wrote:
when I was in the military we were not allowed to carry fire arms at all according to UCMJ
Click to expand...
:what:

What article of the UCMJ says you can't carry? Are you just talking about overseas?
Click to expand...
Not in any UCMJ I ever heard of. But then I got out in the late 70's.
Click to expand...
"I'm active duty since 85, not in any UCMJ Art. Don't listen to them SEA LAWYERS Shipmate."



Specific UCMJ article I cant say and now since I went to look I cant find it, I guess I was miss informed, I know I was told multiple times by our security officers, (1994 Louisiana and 96 or 97in Virginia, Active duty could not carry firearms, something about posse commutates, although I know it is talking about in a law enforcement capacity but since active duty military was on 24/7 that any carrying of a fire arm is/would/could be considered breaking a standing order / against UCMJ, again its been 10 years or longer since I last hear it so my memory is a little fuzzy. But I guess they must have been sea stories, although I did have to go to a DRB my first week in Louisiana for carrying outside of base, although I cant remember exactly what was said I know that’s when the security officer told me some spill about it.
 
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