emcs . security
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How much of the gun must show when open carrying in Colorado ?
How much of the gun must show when open carrying in Colorado ?
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How much of the gun
- Thread starter emcs . security
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Evil Ernie
Regular Member
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First off, welcome to OCDO!!!
I would have to say full exposure of the sidearm in its holster. No coverage by a garment.
I've dug and dug and dug for any info on what Colorado defines as "concealed", and for the life of me, haven't found that answer yet. When I CC tho, I wear a tanktop undershirt with my 1911 in a Serpa CQC at about 3:00. My overshirt (tee shirt, polo shirt, sweatshirt) usually leaves the bottom 2 inches of holster exposed. Plus I usually print like crazy. Haven't had a problem yet.
I know that some states go out of their way to define "concealment". Even a slight print can be labeled as "illegal open carry". Gladly, Colorado is not one of them!
First off, welcome to OCDO!!!
I would have to say full exposure of the sidearm in its holster. No coverage by a garment.
I've dug and dug and dug for any info on what Colorado defines as "concealed", and for the life of me, haven't found that answer yet. When I CC tho, I wear a tanktop undershirt with my 1911 in a Serpa CQC at about 3:00. My overshirt (tee shirt, polo shirt, sweatshirt) usually leaves the bottom 2 inches of holster exposed. Plus I usually print like crazy. Haven't had a problem yet.
I know that some states go out of their way to define "concealment". Even a slight print can be labeled as "illegal open carry". Gladly, Colorado is not one of them!
Chief_of_Scouts
Regular Member
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I was sort of wondering, when CC, how much exposure of my gun will get me in trouble in Denver?
I doubt that the two issues would tied together in the eyes of the law, but one would think that it would be either OC or CC and no in between.
I was sort of wondering, when CC, how much exposure of my gun will get me in trouble in Denver?
I doubt that the two issues would tied together in the eyes of the law, but one would think that it would be either OC or CC and no in between.
Anubis
Newbie
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Chief_of_Scouts wrote:
As Evil Ernie mentioned,"concealed" is not defined in the Colorado Revised Statutes. We must rely on the commonly accepted dictionary definition: "To keep from being seen, found, observed, or discovered"
I think the sight of a weapon-shaped piece of cloth is not "open carry", based on "seen" or "observed" in the definition, but Evil Ernie's view could be construed from using "found" or "discovered". Either way, I will keep my Glock covered in Denver and not printing beyond an amorphous lump visible in a momentary gust.
Chief_of_Scouts wrote:
As Evil Ernie mentioned,"concealed" is not defined in the Colorado Revised Statutes. We must rely on the commonly accepted dictionary definition: "To keep from being seen, found, observed, or discovered"
I think the sight of a weapon-shaped piece of cloth is not "open carry", based on "seen" or "observed" in the definition, but Evil Ernie's view could be construed from using "found" or "discovered". Either way, I will keep my Glock covered in Denver and not printing beyond an amorphous lump visible in a momentary gust.
Evil Ernie
Regular Member
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I'm one of the lucky few that can stay the hell out of Denver! LOL!!!
I'm one of the lucky few that can stay the hell out of Denver! LOL!!!
centsi
Campaign Veteran
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Welcome to the forum. 2 ideas to consider:
First, CRS 18-12-105 (1) says regarding "A person commits a class 2 misdemeanor if such person knowingly and unlawfully (b) Carries a firearm concealed on or about his or her person." The keyword being knowingly. That brings in part 2: "(The) Question of whether weapon is concealed is question of fact for the jury which should not be summarily determined by the trial judge at the time that he rules on the defendant's motion to suppress." People v. Vincent, 628 P.2d 107 (Colo. 1981). So it is left up to a jury to determine whether or not you were "knowingly" concealing your weapon without a permit. I think the word "knowingly" also conotates the "intent" to conceal. If you knew you were doing concealing your weapon and didn't attempt to stop concealing it, then you reasonably intended to conceal it.
Then you have to ask yourself what a resonable person would think of your actions, and in most cases, what would a reasonable cop would think. If your weapon is worn on the outside of your clothing there should be no problem. Technically your holster conceals much of your weapon but I don't think it is reasonable to assume that you were intending to conceal if your holster was visable. And obviously a CCW permit makes this discussion unnessesary.
Welcome to the forum. 2 ideas to consider:
First, CRS 18-12-105 (1) says regarding "A person commits a class 2 misdemeanor if such person knowingly and unlawfully (b) Carries a firearm concealed on or about his or her person." The keyword being knowingly. That brings in part 2: "(The) Question of whether weapon is concealed is question of fact for the jury which should not be summarily determined by the trial judge at the time that he rules on the defendant's motion to suppress." People v. Vincent, 628 P.2d 107 (Colo. 1981). So it is left up to a jury to determine whether or not you were "knowingly" concealing your weapon without a permit. I think the word "knowingly" also conotates the "intent" to conceal. If you knew you were doing concealing your weapon and didn't attempt to stop concealing it, then you reasonably intended to conceal it.
Then you have to ask yourself what a resonable person would think of your actions, and in most cases, what would a reasonable cop would think. If your weapon is worn on the outside of your clothing there should be no problem. Technically your holster conceals much of your weapon but I don't think it is reasonable to assume that you were intending to conceal if your holster was visable. And obviously a CCW permit makes this discussion unnessesary.
centsi
Campaign Veteran
imported post
In response to Chief_of_Scouts' question, it would be logical to apply the same standard to as above to OC in Denver. If you were actually cited for OC in Denver, I think it would make sense for that to be determined by a jury. And I think you would have a better case in Denver because if you have a CCW you are likely not who the officers are targeting. I have heard some cases where someone's weapon did become visible in Denver and once the CCW was presented and it was obvious that the person's intent was not OC, the cops let them go on their way.
Edit: fixed wording
In response to Chief_of_Scouts' question, it would be logical to apply the same standard to as above to OC in Denver. If you were actually cited for OC in Denver, I think it would make sense for that to be determined by a jury. And I think you would have a better case in Denver because if you have a CCW you are likely not who the officers are targeting. I have heard some cases where someone's weapon did become visible in Denver and once the CCW was presented and it was obvious that the person's intent was not OC, the cops let them go on their way.
Edit: fixed wording
Evil Ernie
Regular Member
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Good find Centsi!!! Definitely one of our better clutch hitters!!!
So even if it's up to a jury, Colorado's definition (or lack thereof) of "concealed" is more or less on a case by case basis. Interesting indeed.
Good find Centsi!!! Definitely one of our better clutch hitters!!!
So even if it's up to a jury, Colorado's definition (or lack thereof) of "concealed" is more or less on a case by case basis. Interesting indeed.
Chief_of_Scouts
Regular Member
imported post
I somewhat expected this to be the case. No real clear definition, so it's up to the user to apply common sense. That, or allow a panel of peers to decide.
I was in Denver not too long ago and was walking through a crowded parking lot, when a gust of wind caught my shirt and blew it up and exposed my gun. I thought nothing of it, fixed my shirt and continued on. Then I discover this gem of a website and find out that OC is illegal in Denver (I seriously did not know).
Fortunately, nothing came of this. If it had, I can imagine sticking my CHP in the LEOs face and protesting my right to carry concealed, all the while making the wrong argument.
Anyhow, I am glad I found this site and want to thank everyone here for assisting others and taking time to research and post the law or opinions. Most people on this website seem professional and courteous, with a few nut jobs thrown in, like any community.
/apologies to emcs.security for hijacking the thread
I somewhat expected this to be the case. No real clear definition, so it's up to the user to apply common sense. That, or allow a panel of peers to decide.
I was in Denver not too long ago and was walking through a crowded parking lot, when a gust of wind caught my shirt and blew it up and exposed my gun. I thought nothing of it, fixed my shirt and continued on. Then I discover this gem of a website and find out that OC is illegal in Denver (I seriously did not know).
Fortunately, nothing came of this. If it had, I can imagine sticking my CHP in the LEOs face and protesting my right to carry concealed, all the while making the wrong argument.
Anyhow, I am glad I found this site and want to thank everyone here for assisting others and taking time to research and post the law or opinions. Most people on this website seem professional and courteous, with a few nut jobs thrown in, like any community.
/apologies to emcs.security for hijacking the thread
centsi
Campaign Veteran
imported post
Glad to be of help. It's fun researching these questions and finding out what the law actually says and how it's been applied in the past. Happy OCing!
Glad to be of help. It's fun researching these questions and finding out what the law actually says and how it's been applied in the past. Happy OCing!
emcs . security
New member
imported post
This is what I have found so far
Legal QA
Colorado State Shooting Association
http://www.cssa.org/portal/page.php?12
I would like the legal definition of open carry in Colorado.
Darrell B (2-16-2004)
Darrell--
There is no legal definition of open carry in Colorado. State law does not specifically address the open carry of firearms; therefore, it does not prohibit the practice. However, several municipalities have banned open carry in some form or other--either citywide or in specific designated areas. This practice was upheld by the Colorado Court of Appeals in 2002 in the case of Trinen v. Denver, and the State Supreme Court refused to review the COA's ruling. SB25, which went into effect nearly a year ago, requires that cities post any place where open carry of firearms is prohibited. Cities with limited (bans confined to limited areas such as specific buildings or areas) bans appear to be in compliance with the law; cities with unlimited (city-wide) bans have not posted to the satisfaction of the state statute. As such, it is the position of CSSA that such unlimited bans, unless posted at all entry ways to the city, are unenforceable. If you want to know the law for your city, or a city you are visiting, go to the city's website and look up the city's laws on the subject in the municipal code. Hope this answers your question.
Tony Fabian
President, CSSA
This is what I have found so far
Legal QA
Colorado State Shooting Association
http://www.cssa.org/portal/page.php?12
I would like the legal definition of open carry in Colorado.
Darrell B (2-16-2004)
Darrell--
There is no legal definition of open carry in Colorado. State law does not specifically address the open carry of firearms; therefore, it does not prohibit the practice. However, several municipalities have banned open carry in some form or other--either citywide or in specific designated areas. This practice was upheld by the Colorado Court of Appeals in 2002 in the case of Trinen v. Denver, and the State Supreme Court refused to review the COA's ruling. SB25, which went into effect nearly a year ago, requires that cities post any place where open carry of firearms is prohibited. Cities with limited (bans confined to limited areas such as specific buildings or areas) bans appear to be in compliance with the law; cities with unlimited (city-wide) bans have not posted to the satisfaction of the state statute. As such, it is the position of CSSA that such unlimited bans, unless posted at all entry ways to the city, are unenforceable. If you want to know the law for your city, or a city you are visiting, go to the city's website and look up the city's laws on the subject in the municipal code. Hope this answers your question.
Tony Fabian
President, CSSA
Evil Ernie
Regular Member
imported post
I don't think Mr Fabian understood your question...
I don't think Mr Fabian understood your question...
centsi
Campaign Veteran
imported post
I think we are making this more complicated than it needs to be. Since there is no specific definition of OC, we need to determine what CC is: Knowingly, and I think intentionally, concealing as determinted by a reasonable juror. Anything not fitting the definition of CC is by default OC.
Assuming you don't have a CCW, wear your weapon on the outside of your clothing at all times when off your property and outside of your vehicle. And in Denver, get a CCW or don't carry. Are you planning on wearing your weapon in some unconventional manner?
I think we are making this more complicated than it needs to be. Since there is no specific definition of OC, we need to determine what CC is: Knowingly, and I think intentionally, concealing as determinted by a reasonable juror. Anything not fitting the definition of CC is by default OC.
Assuming you don't have a CCW, wear your weapon on the outside of your clothing at all times when off your property and outside of your vehicle. And in Denver, get a CCW or don't carry. Are you planning on wearing your weapon in some unconventional manner?
SANDCREEK
Regular Member
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I carry both my Glock 23, and a S&W BUG IWB clip-on belt holsters on the hip (alternately). This is in saddle tan , thumb-break, professional "under-cover" low profile. Neither weapon is "concealed" - yet "stealthy". Depending on my clothing color, patterns - sometimes the S&W is virtually undetectable to the casual glance.This is OC in Colorado and "discreet". I understand others are more inclined towardsopting for high visibility. I find my current method of OC serves my purposes without "broadcasting" my armed condition to everyone within 50 feet.In a resturaunt yesterday morning my wife noticed another diner "eye-ball" the Glock as I returned to the booth from the rest room. She said she detected no surprise, alarm, concern in this person's expression. Incidentally, the manager of this same resturaunt was robbed at gun point in the parking lot about 8 months ago. He's probably packing CC - himself. (Colorado Springs) I "may" fit the profile of an LEO ("over-due for retirement"), when I'm alone - but with my wife out shopping probably look like an armed "senior citizen".P.S. - Question - I'm curious . When you folks have an OC " meet & greet" at a restuaraunt, do you "protocal" with manager/owner of the establishment before hand ? (I hope )
I carry both my Glock 23, and a S&W BUG IWB clip-on belt holsters on the hip (alternately). This is in saddle tan , thumb-break, professional "under-cover" low profile. Neither weapon is "concealed" - yet "stealthy". Depending on my clothing color, patterns - sometimes the S&W is virtually undetectable to the casual glance.This is OC in Colorado and "discreet". I understand others are more inclined towardsopting for high visibility. I find my current method of OC serves my purposes without "broadcasting" my armed condition to everyone within 50 feet.In a resturaunt yesterday morning my wife noticed another diner "eye-ball" the Glock as I returned to the booth from the rest room. She said she detected no surprise, alarm, concern in this person's expression. Incidentally, the manager of this same resturaunt was robbed at gun point in the parking lot about 8 months ago. He's probably packing CC - himself. (Colorado Springs) I "may" fit the profile of an LEO ("over-due for retirement"), when I'm alone - but with my wife out shopping probably look like an armed "senior citizen".P.S. - Question - I'm curious . When you folks have an OC " meet & greet" at a restuaraunt, do you "protocal" with manager/owner of the establishment before hand ? (I hope )
emcs . security
New member
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centsi
Are you planning on wearing your weapon in some unconventional manner?
Unconventional manner Maybe , Uncertain , Possibly.I was thinking about open carrying with the IWB holster [size="-1"][font="Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Sans-serif,sans-serif"]"The Defender™" see picture
SANDCREEK
That was what I think I was looking for.
Thanks to all for the responses ..
[size="-1"][font="Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Sans-serif,sans-serif"]
[/font][/size][/font][/size]
Are you planning on wearing your weapon in some unconventional manner?
Unconventional manner Maybe , Uncertain , Possibly.I was thinking about open carrying with the IWB holster [size="-1"][font="Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Sans-serif,sans-serif"]"The Defender™" see picture
Code:
http://www.activeprogear.com/defender.htmlThat was what I think I was looking for.
Thanks to all for the responses ..
[size="-1"][font="Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Sans-serif,sans-serif"]
[/font][/size][/font][/size]
Attachments
centsi
Campaign Veteran
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I usually carry a black semi in a black paddle holster and sometimes up against a black shirt or pants. That's not concealed, but it's not easily recognized. IWB is fine as long as your shirt is properly tucked in.
I usually carry a black semi in a black paddle holster and sometimes up against a black shirt or pants. That's not concealed, but it's not easily recognized. IWB is fine as long as your shirt is properly tucked in.
Gunslinger
Regular Member
imported post
Or you could walk into a UPS Store in Falcon with your Hi-Power in plain view and engage in friendly conversation with the ladies behind the counter while sending a package. Not the slightest quick eye movement to your holster wondering if you were a bad guy. Kind of like I did this morning...and not think twice about it.
Or you could walk into a UPS Store in Falcon with your Hi-Power in plain view and engage in friendly conversation with the ladies behind the counter while sending a package. Not the slightest quick eye movement to your holster wondering if you were a bad guy. Kind of like I did this morning...and not think twice about it.