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Jacked up in 30th St. Station - Phila.

DKSuddeth

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Bedford, Texas, USA
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constable, while most on here can appreciate the viewpoint that LEOs in philly are adopting because of violence towards officers, do they (and you) not realize that it's not weapons carried in the open that you have to worry about? the thugs that are out there preying people and leo's are concealing their weapons before they strike, so tell us all how lawful people carrying concealed makes their job easier and safer as compared to lawful people carrying in the open?

The thought process really needs to be logical on that aspect.
 

lprgcFrank

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As Statkowski said - depends on the response.

I plan to travel through 30th St. Station on Thursday night - so we'll see what happens there - hopefully it's like the dozen+ times of non-events.....

I believe that you need to give people a chance to be reasonable......
 
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DKSuddeth wrote:
constable, while most on here can appreciate the viewpoint that LEOs in philly are adopting because of violence towards officers,do they (and you) not realize that it's not weapons carried in the open that you have to worry about? the thugs that are out there preying people and leo's are concealing their weapons before they strike, so tell us all how lawful people carrying concealed makes their job easier and safer as compared to lawful people carrying in the open?

The thought process really needs to be logical on that aspect.

I can understand what you are saying and like I stated earlier, I am not in no way lobbying for OC or CC or not at all, alls I am trying to say is before you you jump on the officers down there please try to understand their job there and what it is like there.

Quote "do they (and you) not realize", I do and most of them do realize that the weapons are not the point but you said it perfectly when you said..."the thugs that are out there preying people" which is exactly why when in a very high crime area such as philly when a gun is seen or heard the police come running, not because of the gun but there are lots of "thugs" , as you put it, down in and around philly.

I encourage all as a LEO to exercise all your rights including OC, I was just trying to make point as to try to understand the other side there. the nicest looking person and the nicest acting person in the world can shoot you or someone else dead in a second and the ugliest and the "thug" looking type could be the one to come to your aid, looks are decieving and so are actions.

I am sure that after these two officers that checked him out "on the side of caution down there", that after they see him again it would be different, they may just watch him a few more times but then I am sure that once they see he isnt one of the philly "thugs" they have down there then he wont be a concern to them anymore.

When I see someone OC, I dont stop them or even question them but I do watch them closely until I know I and the people around the person is safe. The gun dont bother me, its the person, I know the gun but not the person and in todays society as you well know there are a LOT of nuts out there nowadays.

Things will change down in philly one day hopefully when and if they can clean out the criminals that are intent to to you and me harm but until then I just say try , thats all, try and give the officers there a little slack. I know the law says you can do this and that and OC there with permit etc but we all dont have to stick 100% to the letter of the law all the time, we can use our own judgement as to what is fit or not.

Many and I say many, maybe even you, I dont know for example have just been warned when you were speeding on the roads or broke some kind of law somehow no matter how small but not everyone gets a ticket or hooked up and rode down town all the time because the officer showed some understanding and gave a break. What if they all stuck to the letter of the law all the time? They can but dont because it depends on the situation at the time and the attitude.

I myself have not hooked and booked several people before for Disorderly or Drunkeness or fights etc because the situation called for other actions.

Sorry for the long post guys, bottom line, yes by all means OC or CC, which ever you prefer or not even carry at all but just maybe ...say , 1 out of 10 trips to philly CC or dont carry and just think of the officer just doing his or her job there to be safe and to make you safe. Yes alot of officers need educating on OC in this state as well shown like Dickson City buy on the same token alot of OC'ers need educated to that its a right and its for your protection and not to look like rambo so every one sees your wearing a gun to panic. You know exactly what I mean and there are those out there that do it not because its their right but to look bad and scary and to prove a point, thats all I am saying.

Talked enough, thanks and everyone be safe and happy OC or CC or however you do it if you do it
 

Thundar

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docwatson wrote:
Something else about Amtrak I didn't know:

from http://www.amtrak.com/servlet/ContentServer?c=am2Copy&pagename=Amtrak%2Fam2Copy%2FTitle_Image_Copy_Page&cid=1080080553878

Prohibited Items

The following kinds of items are prohibited as both checked and carry-on baggage:
  • Any type of gun, firearm, ammunition, explosives, or weapon.
AMTRAK Police Officer: Why are you openly carrying that gun in a holster?

Me: Because AMTRAK rules prohibit carrying the gun in my baggage.
 

Thundar

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docwatson wrote:
Their 'Mobile Security Team' are all former SF personnel with SFAUC and SOTIC Training. Check out:

http://amtrak.teamrewards.net/TR_PublicWeb/Wizards?fp=1&tp=5&jobid=191785&ctm=1216982515655


AMTRAK SWAT???





Deputy Commander Mobile Team - Eff. 07/17/2008
spacer.gif
Refer Remember





Location:
District of Columbia-Washington

Req. Number:
90107731

Description:
THE SAFETY OF OUR PASSENGERS, OUR EMPLOYEES, THE PUBLIC AND OUR OPERATING ENVIRONMENT IS OUR HIGHEST PRIORITY!

Position Title: Deputy Commander Mobile Team
Department: Office of Security Strategy and Special Operations
Location: Washington, DC
Posting #: 90107731

INTERNAL AND EXTERNAL APPLICANTS

PLEASE NOTE: THIS POSITION IS BEING REPOSTED. PRIOR APPLICANTS NEED NOT REAPPLY.

SUMMARY OF DUTIES: Executing Mobile Team screening, show of force, counter-surveillance, assessment, and red team missions. Identifying best practices and/or technology which contribute to Mobile Team mission accomplishment. Administering and coordinating all personnel, transportation & travel, procurement, hiring, budgeting and operational planning and execution actions. Conducting and commanding Mobile Team operations in the absence of the Commander. Supervising the Mobile Team administrative officer.

EDUCATION: Bachelors degree in business or an equivalent combination of education, experience, and training.

PREFERRED EDUCATION: Bachelors degree from an accredited college or university with coursework in criminal justice, police science, public or business administration.

WORK EXPERIENCE: Experience in supervising and/or managing military or law enforcement special operations teams. Experience in planning, resourcing, coordinating and executing performance-orientated training.

OTHER REQUIREMENTS: Holder of or eligible to receive federal top secret security clearance.

COMMUNICATION AND INTERPERSONAL SKILLS: Skill in leading briefings and meetings and making presentations to individuals and groups.

SUPERVISORY RESPONSIBILITIES: Direct up to 35 sworn Special Agents. Indirect may supervise and lead as many as 25-30 personnel from all Amtrak disciplines.

TRAVEL: 10%


Hiring Range:
$90,000.00 - $115,000.00
Annually

Last Date to Apply:
07/24/08

Position Type:
Permanent

Job Category:
Office of Security Strategy and Special Ops

Years of Experience:
10 - 12

Travel Requirements:
<25%

Relocation Benefits May Apply:
No

Classification Agreement:
No

Referral Bonus:
1850 pts
 

docwatson

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*MUCH* more than just a SWAT team - IIRC, SFAUC (Advanced Urban Combat) and SOTIC (Target Interdiction Course) go well beyond what a SWAT cop would/could do. The railroad is actually Federal property, so these folks will be FLETC trained as well.

There's a long history of the railroads having heavy hitters on staff (see: Pinkerton Detectives) and these folks look like they would be able to profile and interdict bad guys before they became threats to passengers and equipment.

It looks like the drive to prevent a Madrid-style incident is the push behind hiring these folks. It also looks like the basis for one heck of a thriller novel! :)
 

lprgcFrank

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Messages
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Wayne, Pennsylvania, USA
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NATIONAL RAILROAD PASSENGER CORPORATION
2955 Market Street. Box I53S004 Philadelphia. PA 19104 Tel: 215.349-3310
A M T R AK
July 28, 2008

Mr. Michael Gottlieb, Esquire Vangrossi and Recchuiti
319 Swede Street
Norristown, PA 19401

RE: LPRGCFRANK. INCIDENTDear Mr. Gottlieb,
This letter is in response to your recent correspondence to Captain Maureen Powers of the Amtrak Police Department concerning the above individual. It has been referred to my office for response on behalf of the Amtrak Police Department.

First, I want to thank you for the materials on the Pennsylvania Uniform Firearms Act. I have asked Captain Powers to forward them to the Amtrak Police Department Training Unit for review and evaluation of future use. Amtrak certainly agrees that Pennsylvania has a so-called "open carry" statute and that the licensing law does not require a person to carry a firearm concealed, including on the public streets and public property of Philadelphia. You should know, however, that all Amtrak Police Officers assigned to work in Pennsylvania are state certified police officers by the Municipal Police Officers Training and Education Commission (MPOTEC).

Second, the July 2, 2008 incident has been reviewed with Sergeant Cameron and Police Officer Zwanetz. While there is certainly concurrence on several facts, the officer's version of events is different than the account proffered by you in their response to a "man with a gun" on a SEPTA Train service call.

Third, Amtrak is a private corporation organized under the laws of the District of Columbia. By federal statute, it is not a department, agency or instrumentality of the United States. See 49 USC 24301 (a). Obviously, it is not a political subdivision or governmental entity of or within the state of Pennsylvania.

Fourth, as a result of Amtrak's status as a private corporation, I do not see how sections 6109 and 6120 of the Pennsylvania Uniform Firearms Act apply to Amtrak. It is not a public street nor is it public property. As your client concedes, he is aware that Amtrak prohibits carriage of firearm on Amtrak property since "that is why he does not ride Amtrak." As such, Amtrak is unaware of any laws that prevent Amtrak from establishing such policies on Amtrak-owned private property.

Fifth, Sergeant Cameron correctly notified your client that carrying a firearm on Amtrak-owned private property is prohibited. This includes Amtrak stations, such as 30[sup]th' [/sup]Street Station. Such regulations are posted at 30[sup]th[/sup] Street Station under Amtrak's Station Rules of Conduct.

Since your client has been directly notified of Amtrak's policy, it expects him to comply with the lawful provisions of a private property owner.

Thank you for your attention in this matter.

Sincerely,
David J. Domzalski, Esquire Associate General Counsel Director, Legal Services Amtrak Police Department
cc: John J. O'Connor, Amtrak Chief of Police
Maureen Powers, Captain Amtrak
Byl Herrmann, Managing Deputy General Counsel
Jon Meyer, Special Deputy General Counsel, Security and Special Operations
Richard Evans, Chief of Police, SEPTA
Patrick Link, Assistant District Attorney, Philadelphia Gun Violence Task Force
Daniel Snyder, Deputy Sheriff, Delaware[sub],[/sub] County Sheriff Department
 

lprgcFrank

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Jun 3, 2006
Messages
245
Location
Wayne, Pennsylvania, USA
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So - good news and bad news answer.

Bad news first - Since Amtrak is private property - I can't carry there anymore without being subject to a defiant trespass charge.

I expected that the Sgt. would deny the threat for a non-existent charge - next time I'll have a audio recorder going.

So-so - I'll just change trains at Suburban Station so I never set foot in Amtrak property when I carry. This is not a big deal as the connections aren't that tight. Just less food choices
tongue.gif

Mike is sending a clarifying letter to Amtrak to put them on notice that If I am on a SEPTA train - I'm not entering Amtrak property.

Good news - they recognized the value of the training bulletin regarding lawful firearms carry.

Even though the property is patrolled by Police, all they can do is ask you to leave if they discover that you have a firearm - just like any other property owner.

Thanks to Thundar who shared the FOIA process for Amtrak so I'll make that request to see if there is anything interesting in there.....
 

georgedonnelly

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Now Amtrak is private property?! They must have cried laughing as they wrote this letter.

They force you to subsidize something and then they turn around and deny that the public has any right or interest in it?! This is having your cake and eating it, too.

And since when does a private corporation have an armed police force capable of stopping a person and disarming them?

Are there actually signs up at 30th street station declaring that it is property of Amtrak and stating that no firearms are allowed? I never checked.

I'm curious what exactly the relationship between SEPTA and Amtrak is. Does SEPTA have a lease?

Very interesting and thanks for sharing.
 

lprgcFrank

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Messages
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Wayne, Pennsylvania, USA
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The letter claims that there is a posting somewhere in that couple city block building that says no firearms. I'm not going to waste my time looking for it.

From my understanding - SEPTA has a lease for use of the station and the shared tracks.
 

Statkowski

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Messages
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Cherry Tree (Indiana County), Pennsylvania, USA
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And since when does a private corporation have an armed police force capable of stopping a person and disarming them?
Many major coal companies had them in the 19th Century. Ever hear of the Molly Maguires?

Railroad police have been around for a long time, and are authorized by state law as fully-fledged law enforcement officers.
 

georgedonnelly

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Messages
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If SEPTA has a lease, don't SEPTA's rules apply? It might be interesting to find out.

19th century, sure, but I'm talking about the 21st century. I'm not opposed to private security forces per se, but it seems like these railroad cops pushed the limits of their jobs.
 
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